Okay, here goes FWIW.

I've been skating for 14 years, prior to any established levels, tests, whatever. Adults were complaining that things were too easy, people were "sandbagging" and that we weren't being taken seriuosly. They asked for levels, tests and the works, to MODEL after the standard track. Okay, so it happened. I look at standard track and I see that Novice qualifiers and above go to nationals, Intermediate qualifiers and above go to Junior Nationals. PERHAPS, to model better, we have sectionals for qualifying Pre-Bronze through Masters, the we hold two "nationals", one for Silver qualifiers and below, one for Masters and above, or some such other cut off. There will never be a way to please all involved as I've seen the shift over 14 years. We want to be treated like "seriuos" skaters and now we are. I do realize that we're adults and it's a hobby, not a career and why be exclusive because the goal is for everyone to have fun and be able to participate in the experience. Were I a national level JUDGE on the otherhand, sitting in a freezing rink for hours........ I don't know. I know the argument is simply for it to be held at the national level competition and that other than gold and masters its an open competition. I'm kind on the fence at that. I can see both sides of the argument, however, I say if we asked to be treated seriuosly, then we get to abide to the model like the amateur skaters. And that means that perhaps pre-bronze, bronze and silver should qualify at sectionals and maybe silver and gold get one nationals, bronze and pre-bronze get another.

Helmet is on, fire away....

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Careygram

January: Sure I'll compete, quick, send the application
April: I signed up to do WHAT??

Ooops, I meant Intermediate qualifiers and BELOW go to "junior" nationals...to prevent confusion...

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Careygram

January: Sure I'll compete, quick, send the application
April: I signed up to do WHAT??

That's an interesting suggestion. But I suspect that more people have passed than failed this test. Maybe it just means that folks should try harder to pass?

Nah, I think people ARE trying really hard. They're either reaching their physical limitations, or, more likely, busy with the rest of their lives.

Maybe the pre-Bronzers could take over a local or an ISI National and treat it like Adult Nationals. It would provide the camraderie, but more importantly, it would be more persuasive to the USFSA to point out that pre-Bronze skaters a) are interested, b) are competing in serious numbers and c) are of similar skill to be grouped in a class of their own at Nationals.

You know, I think this has largely been an interesting and informative discussion, and I appreciate the thought that so many people have put into this.

But can we please stop the name-calling or sarcasm (yes, there's just been a little so far, but I would hate to see us deteriorate) and can people PLEASE stop saying that pre-bronze skaters should "try harder" to pass their bronze tests? Or saying, well, I passed so why can't you?? I really doubt anyone is not trying to the best of their abilities as they see them... people have all kinds of circumstances in their lives, and outsiders don't know all of their personal issues.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course.

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August 22, back on the ice!

Precisely! People, it's a petition not the Magna Carta!!

In the end, the most that will happen is that the petition will get a bunch of signatures and it'll go the USFSA and they'll discuss it. What's the harm in that?

I hope you know that I've tried to do this by offering suggestions on how to make this proposal more palatable. Again, as I've said ad nauseam by now, the numbers argument appears IMO to be the strongest one, so if I were you I'd be marshalling up that supporting data while also taking signatures for the petition. If it is decided that AN needs 50 or so more starts to maintain profitability and you have those 50 skaters ready to go that aren't coming from other skating disciplines, few would be able to argue with you. And I've also made my point about changes to the PB free test, so I won't repeat them here.

Um, I wasn't being sarcastic. I'd genuinely like to know if there were judges officiating at AN and either Olympics or Worlds, so I could check to see if they were on my panel for my event. Frankly I thought that the pool of judges we use to send officials to Olympics/Worlds was different than the pool we pick for AN, but I'm admittedly not that familiar with the judging certifications. Since we'd only send a few judges to Olympics or Worlds, I'd hate to think that the rest of the judges in the country would want to skip competitions to watch or attend Olympics/Worlds or otherwise check out mentally after Olys/Worlds were over and thus not want to come to AN. But, that's a side discussion and not really relevant to the PB issue. Still I thought it would not hurt to ask (in case a Joe Inman type person had been on my panel). Let's all take a deep breath here...

LOL... fair enough... I can't beat this horse any deader anyway...

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Whatever!

Shhh. Saffy might hear you.

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Actually, cecealias tried to put together an informal poll that address that very same question. Unfortunately, the question of the poll got misinterpreted... (Understandably though... there are skaters out there who aren't even passing Pre-Bronze Moves and FS yet...)

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=20313

I don't know about the other Pre-Bronzers but for me, I have that -- what Skate San Francisco (and recently Adult Sectionals) are for! My rink has a huge percentage of adult skaters and MANY of the adult skaters at my rink... and who am I to want to feel left out of the fun and all... But for some Pre-Bronzers I know, they often ARE the only adult skater at their local comp. For them to do that type of competition would require a Herculean effort.

FrankR... LOVE LOVE LOVE your response!!! YES!!! This is NOT the Magna Carta!!!

This is a petition!!! It's just a bunch of signatures that will go to the adult skating committee to show that there's support for this issue. Someone else will be tasked to write the proposal. Since I'm not a member of the adult skating committee (HOW do you become a member anyway???) it's up to the powers that be to determine how they're going to do this, not the Pre-Bronze skaters!!!

And skaternum, I can only speak for myself (not Terri C or the other Pre-Bronze skaters) on this one. When I made that comment about being supportive of Pre-Bronze skaters, I did not have you specifically in mind...

I knew when this petition went out, there was going to be strong opposition to this issue and it was going to be very vocal. You guys are definitely entitled to your opinion, just as we are to ours! I personally don't take your opposition a slam against us at all. It's certainly no skin off my nose! Which is why I said in one of my post.... As far as I'm concerned, we are still buds after all this is said and done!!! And when we do finally meet at a comp (God knows when!), we have havoc to wreak...

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Sorry for being slow, but I don't get it!! Who's Saffy?

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Whatever!

AFAIK, Barbara Holland (she wears those large, tinted glasses) and Morry Stillwell--both on your panel--are high-ranking, if not international, judges.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Thanks NoVa... didn't know that about Barbara Holland. I'm sure she's judged me in the past so now I'm curious to know how she's judged me historically... hmm...

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Whatever!

Barbara has judged a few times at the Mountain Cup. Your AN pairs lifting partner ( ) was judged by her in figures at that event. She was not very kind!

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

I wasn't around in the early days of adult skating (my first group lessons were in 1998), so I don't have a whole lot of historical knowledge. Can some of those who have been participating longer (flo, daisies, others) give a brief outline of the major changes which have taken place, as well as the rationales behind them (i.e., were they changes suggested by the adults or by USFS...)? Not necessarily in extensive detail, but just an outline might be helpful.

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Where are those knives when I need them?
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I need a detachable left foot!

HAHA! Now don't start promoting us a bona fide pair... I'm not about to be thrown ala Zhang.

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Whatever!

Actually, all of the judges at AN are at least Senior National Judges.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...Uofficials.pdf

John Cole has his intl appt (he might be the only one with a current ISU judging appt).

Ida Tateoka was once an Olympic (1984?) and World judge and is a big political power in the sport. Other judges in the past have been very high up there (like Lucy Brennan and Anne Gherli), but they have passed the forced retirement age by ISU.

As someone pointed out this is the problem with ANs: You have to be a Senior National Judge, but most of those types want to judge REAL sectionals and REAL nationals or REAL internationals--anything but the adult stuff. So you end up with retired judges who honestly probably have nothing better to do AND ... they judge the way they used to 30 years ago.

The proposal to allow junior competition judges to judge the open events is on the table and will likely pass at GC.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Now I see why I was confused... I remember the AC discussing this a few years ago so I assumed it had already passed, and I thought the proposal was for qualifying events too, thus I thought that there wouldn't be very many international judges at AN, if any. I stand corrected. (You got the look, you got the hook, sho nuf do be cookin'...)

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Whatever!

Yeah, what he said! Who's Saffy?

TashaKat's horse, who occasionally post on the Patsy's Parlor on the Non-Skating Discussion. Saffy refers to TashaKat as "Mommy."

She (Saffy) is quite a character, wouldn't you say, ISk8NYC!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

One of the problems seems to me that you need to have so many judges in your events - here in the UK, we have panels of 3 or 5 judges depending on how many skaters there are in the particular class; even at our regular Nationals we had no more than 5 judges. One of whom, incidentally, was judging Senior Nationals one weekend, and the following weekend was judging at our local club's Winter Festival!

Most of the judges I know really enjoy judging adult skaters - one said to me that she loved the way we had such fun out there! Whether that made up for having to judge 14 mediocre Canasta Tangos followed by 14 even more mediocre Dutch Waltzes, I'm not sure.... but two of our judges (themselves still participant Masters skaters) were leading lights in the campaign to get our British Adult Championships, and, indeed, organised the first two themselves (and competed in the third!).

Mind you, having said that, it stands to reason that I would know the judges who like judging adults! But we have had international-level judges at Oberstdorf last year, and at the Mountain Cup this year.... one of whom, at least, is happy enough to judge baby-tests at local rinks, too! He passed our Level 1 free dance, anyway..... just.....

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

With abundant "horse sense" and a great sense of humor, to boot! Saffy is probably sleeping in her stable now. Jazzpants - don't start the Mr. Ed theme song again. Please? The 45-minute trip home is unbearable.

Back on topic: how many Pre-Bronze skaters compete in any competitions? That's a critical number to have a handle on before your petition is reviewed. Skating in a competition in front of a crowd is different from skating for a test in front of a handful of judges. (Shows are a different beast since you can be entertaining without challenging yourself skating-wise.)

If the only time you skate a program is before/during the test, you're bound to be nervous. If you've overcome the pre-competition butterflies, it helps build your confidence going forward. Confidence before a test is a very good thing to have.

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Nova, that was very well said. As a judge, I thank you.

Once again, flo, I agree with you. You and I are on the same page!

Are you a judge? I am not asking that to be sarcastic, I truly want to know.

As one myself, I believe there is big difference between an encouragement test -- which pre-Bronze and pre-Pre are -- and the other tests in terms of what I am looking for. As has been stated, that is precisely the reason these tests are judged pass/retry and not on a passing average.

I don't think a seminar can change someone's mind. Maybe if they conducted lobotomies at the seminars....

Either way, from what I was told at the competition, this year's shortage of judges had nothing to do with them not wanting to be there or their views on adult skating. Judges are selected for and commit to the event months ahead of time, as do alternates. Several health-related incidents occurred -- one judge had a heart attack -- and the selected alternates were used to fill. Unfortunately, there weren't enough alternates to cover.

Who's been mean-spirited about skaters trying to pass their Bronze? I thought this thread is about allowing pre-Bronze at AN, not about how hard it is to pass the Bronze test.

EXACTLY!!!!!

(Sorry, ISk8NYC!!!)

Oh, that's easy! All they have to do is to look at the participants from Sectionals every year.

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

There's a focus group to study, then. A survey to determine their interest would be useful. The petition group might also want to categorize some of their results along the lines of the skater's levels, etc.

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FWIW, the judges I've spoken to love judging at Adult Nationals.