I'm not sure they are harder around where I live... I've seen a heck of a lot of kids' Preliminary MIF tests get retried lately... a lot more than in previous years. Don't know if coaches are putting the kids out too soon, or if there's a move afoot to tighten up on the passing standard.

I don't think the judges are necessarily harder in my area either, I just believe they don't know adult moves have different passing standards.

Well, I don't agree that you need to test to "pass" skill levels. My coach "tests" me, and she isn't a push over as a "judge". Some folks here don't want to spend lesson/practice time learning and working on moves. I don't want to spend the time or money taking tests. Some time down the road this could change, but I'm happy "passing" skills with my coach. No, adults shouldn't try to live up to kid skaters. Just themselves. However, I do think you need to learn moves if your serious about improving as a skater. Learning the harder skills does have alot to do with how strong your basic skills are. I have seen a few adults trying doubles, etc. without them and it is scary. (Their life may not pass before their eyes, but it does mine.) Skating is made of choices, especially as adults. We each need to make our own choices about what is right for us. As for the Grandfather thing, I think they should start testing where they are at the moment. Maybe there should be just a testing level for child/adult returners. I was told the adult track on moves, coach, was less demanding. (Personally I don't know.)

Chico

__________________
"I truly believe, when God created skating, he patted himself on the back."

Around my area, I'd say the opposite is true. The judges look at adult skaters and say "Oh them. Well it's good enough for an adult, so we'll pass them." I really hate that and I don't do things that way, but a LOT of coaches and judges are like that. They let the little things slide and in doing that do a disservice to the adult skating community, IMO.

Since this was in the earlier discussion, my personal definition of an adult skater is someone who started skating as an adult, after high school, 18 or older.

You really need to buy a rulebook so you know exactly what moves are at each level. Don't take your coach's word for it. The adult moves maybe interpreted as less demanding because the judging criteria is slightly lower........however, the moves themselves for each level are far more difficult. It really angers me when coaches think the standard track is somehow superior. I've spent a lot of time working on the Gold moves, and believe me, they are VERY demanding. I'd much rather be working on Juvenile moves like the kids at my freestyle test level.

I also think that as a recreational skater (which I might become too, if I ever get back on the ice) it's hard for you to understand the adult competitor. We need to pass tests in order to compete. We don't have the same choices that you do. We need to spend a lot of our time perfecting our programs..........and believe me, if you ever get a program to play around with, it will shed a whole new light on the time and difficulty factor.

The argument at GC about adult moves was not to improve the quality of jumps and spins. It was mentioned that adults CAN jump and spin, but "when are they going to learn to skate". Moves in the Field are all of the in-betweens in a program, not just a set of tests. It was never mentioned that they were building blocks for jumps and spins. Since figures were eliminated, the complaint with young skaters has been the lack of edge quality, etc. and a generation of little jumping beans. I guess I'm just not sure I see the connection between an adult's scary double attempt and mandatory moves tests....when you consider the jumping bean factor.

I prefer to work on program specific "moves", as well as "moves" that target areas that my coach thinks I need to strengthen. I'm just lucky that it really is no longer an issue for me. I will never learn an axel at my age, so there is no need for me to sweat out a required moves test. I know I'll never test Gold freestyle anyhow. The only reason I learned the gold moves was to give me something to do while healing from a back injury. I applaud everyone who has passed that test. That novice move end pattern in the wrong direction is a killer. I can guarantee I'd never put that in a program......unless crashing into the boards fits with my music. LOL!

Aww, come on. I only crashed into the boards 4 or 5 times on that move. It was the power circles on the Intermediate test that sent me into the boards all of the time

Joking aside, this does bring up a good point. There is an injury factor on these higher moves tests, especially where the primary focus is power. My back was messed up for about a month from my last power circle crash (ironically done in the warm up for the test itself). Personally, I'd rather fall on a double salchow than a bracket any day (and I had plenty of bracket falls working on both the Gold and Intermediate tests). It takes us a bit longer to recover from those kinds of falls/injuries than the kids.

I still support and like the idea of doing moves (I'm insane - I'll be starting the Novice moves right after AN), but the injury factor is food for thought.

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Amen to that!! I hate bracket falls. And it's ALWAYS the very first one, the RFO. I just catch the edge on the turn and bang. I'm never worried about any bracket after that first one. Once in a while I'll click blades and fall during the power circles too. Moves falls are definitely worse than jump falls.

Hey, so does this mean since I am not really an adult skater, I don't have to take the adult tests and can just do standard track?

I can understand the frustration that those skaters who started as adults have. I think that every skater, no matter when they started, experiences frustrations and feelings of unfairness. I started testing and competing USFSA when I was about 14, which was very old compared to most skaters. I already had the body of an adult, and because of age and test restrictions, I was never able to compete at a qualifying level.

Additionally, competing as a kid is much more difficult than competing as an adult, mostly because of numbers. In any given regional competition, there are probably at least 100 Intermediate Ladies competing. Most of them will not even come near the podium. This isn't "fair" either. It's great that skaters who may have been rather unsuccessful as kids can get a second chance as adults. I'm not saying that this should be at the expense of skaters who began as adults. Everyone deserves an equal chance. The "returning skaters" may sometimes have an advantage, but probably just because they have been skating for a longer time. Often the "adult skaters" have the advantage in time and skill. They may also have the advantage in enthusiasm--at a recent competition I met a woman (in her 40's?) who was competing in Bronze for the first time. She had been skating only about a year or two (I think?) and was so excited about skating. Her technique was not perfect but she put all her heart into it and ended up in 4th place. I think she got 2nd in Artistic!

Many "returning skaters" experience lots of frustration, too, because they can't skate like they used to! When I first started skating again, I used to get very upset because I couldn't land the same jumps or center my spins. It's extremely frustrating to regress in your skills, as I am sure anyone who has lost a jump knows.

What I am trying to say is there should be a place for everyone. It's impossible to make generalizations about "adults" or "returning" skaters. We are all adults after all! Sorry for getting somewhat off-topic.

As far as adult judging standards go, the adult track individual moves are exactly the same as the standard track individual moves, just grouped together differently. The difference is that the passing score for adults is lower. For example, the passing score for the standard track Juv test is 3.0--the average score for all the Juv moves must be at least 3.0 per move. However, for Adult Silver (sort of equivalent to Juv) the passing standard is 2.7. There are supposedly different standards for adults, for example some toe pushing on crossovers is allowed, short two-footing just before stepping forward on alternating 3's. But I don't think most judges know about or take these into consideration. I'm pretty sure that they are not listed on the judge's score sheet, but I don't have any here to look at. Here is a link to the adult MITF standards:

http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultMIFComp.pdf

I landed on my knees on a bracket fall once. They haven't been the same since. You just don't have the slide on a moves fall that you do on a jump fall.

Go for it sk8er1064. You are a moves goddess!!!!! Your footwork rocks!!!!

Yes, moves falls are the worst! I had a serious injury recently due to a bracket fall--I turned the RFO bracket ok, but possibly when I was swinging my free leg back I kicked my other leg, or maybe I was just going too slow and lost my balance, but anyway I fell down, and on the way down the heel of my blade stabbed into my calf. I left a pool of blood on the ice and I had to have 15 stitches. I have been scared to do brackets since!

But the Silver freestyle test is actually pretty much equivalent to pre-juv. That is where the inequity comes in......so perhaps they are balancing the more difficult moves with a lower passing score? But like many of have said......a good percentage of the judges don't seem to know the adult scoring standards.

The adults I really feel bad for are the ones that have been off the ice for 20 years or so, and are forced to pass all of the moves and freestyle tests to be able to compete. I can't even comprehend how overwhelming that must feel, and I'm sure in some cases, just not possible. In that respect, I'm sure glad I started as an adult.

I fell and fractured my shoulder in two places trying to work on one of the 3 turn patterns in the Silver MITF. A year of surgery and physical therapy and my shoulder is just now starting to feel better. I've decided that if I do return to the ice (now I don't have the time to skate), I'm staying at the Bronze level forever, because I am not going to stress myself out trying to perfect and test the moves. I don't have the time or the money for the extra lessons. Besides, I an't afford any more injuries. I've fallen on jumps plenty of times, and have never gotten seriously hurt. However I've broken 3 other joints in addition to my shoulder doing footwork and edgework type moves.

Thanks Michagansk8er!
I spoke with Maggie Harding, the adult chair, and I would suggest that anyone with concerns contact her. I think there's a feeling that the same people are "whining " about moves and the extent and number of adults who have concerns about the situation is not adequately characterized. I would like to see a comprehensive questionnaire put to the adults at Nationals (for a start) and the results made available to the community. In this way there will be a clear understanding of who we are and what we need in the adult program - not just for the moves issues, but others as well and the program as a whole. This information could then be used as a basis for any proposed changes, and not one ill-informed skater at GC insisting that "adults learn to skate".
I have volunteered to conduct the survey ( I do this regularly as part of my research work)at this year's Nationals, as I know that Maggie has her plate full. However, she believes that concerns or suggestions raised could not be adequately addressed at present, and suggested this be conducted next year.
I've also been advised to conduct it anyway, as it would be valuable. If anyone has any thoughts, please let me know.

I can't help but think of 3 words: "OLYMPIC SIZE RINK!!!!"

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Can I take the survey? I'll bet there are quite a few competitors who won't be able to make it to AN for one reason or another (financials, injuries, etc...), as well as those who ARE working hard to make it. (Maybe an online survey?)

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Sure,
I was thinking of something on-line as well. I'll get started on it.

I won't be at AN but will definitely fill out an online survey.

In fact, to make life simpler for you , they even have FREE Online Survey websites! (They have EVERYTHING on the Internet!) Just do a Google on "Free Online Survey" and you'll find an eyeful.

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I would love to fill out a survey too.

As would I, on-line would be awesome from those of us who aren't going to AN. That's really an excellent idea!!!! I'm really excited at the prospect of getting real thoughts and data to back our "whinings" up!!

This is the part that bugs me. Even if the judges are aware of the adult scoring standards, I don't think there's any agreement as to what that really means. For Silver (the ones I am working on), what does a 2.7 mark really mean on the Intermediate move which has a passing mark of 3.3 on the standard track? Taz Jr. is working on her Intermediate moves so we both have this one going. She is probably a couple of months from testing these yet but I feel pretty safe in saying she'd score well above a 2.7 if she tested tomorrow. She'd probably have to skate it pretty dreadfully to score that low. So what does that 2.7 really translate to for us on the adult track?

Reading a little further along, I would also be interested in filling out an online survey!

I'm sure to the majority of the judges it is just a number......and the skill-wise passing criteria is the same.

Just for the record, I have seen a rule book. I do "study" off the blooming thing from time to time. I was told that adult moves are given more of a break. This is what I was TOLD. I've been told by all the coaches I've ever had that moves are necessary. (This is where edge control is learned and practiced. Each move builds on the one before it.)Sure, doubles, flying spins, etc. can be done without them in some fashion, but they aren't done well or in control. I think it's like building a house without a foundation. Yes, moves are the worst for falls. Everyone has different goals and challenges, and what is right for one person might not be for someone else. Reading this board, and seeing all the different ideas says this is true. To me, a recreational skater is someone who skates just to fart around. I work too hard at this sport to fit into this category. I'm just me, and a skater.

Chico

__________________
"I truly believe, when God created skating, he patted himself on the back."

Heck, my power circle test fall was on an Olympic sized rink! I was really moving fast, then.....the click of death

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown