I've mentioned a few times about girls who my daughter competes against frequently being much stronger skaters. The other day when she was skating, one of the girls told my daughter she's landing an axel. She's 8 turning 9 and in the highest level of our LTS program.
In this level the required elements are :
Three Jump
Salchow jump
Backward one foot spin
Forward One Foot Spin
Backward pivot
Backward Spiral


The other day a friend of mine who also skates said she witnessed this kid doing several clean loop-loop combinations.... this is a far cry from an axel, but I do suspect she has another jump under her belt which is higher than a loop jump!

My question is .... at what point should something be mentioned about this skater competing in the wrong level?
Would you say anything or would you stay completely out of it?

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AW1
mum to Miss Lil (6yrs old)
mum to be to #2 due in March 08

Never. Do not say anything. They won't appreciate it, they won't change what they are doing and it's not your place and you will only be seen in a negative light.

Honestly, there are some things in this sport you really need to accept that it comes with the game. Sandbagging exists. If you think it's bad now, it's only going to get worse. Also often what looks like sandbagging is more complicated. Skaters need to learn that they cannot control who they are skating against. They can only control their own skating. If that is going to bother you excessively you need to get out of it now.

j

When my daughter landed her first axel, she was far from "having" it and competed at Freestyle 4 a month later - not near axel level. She is a natural jumper but had a lot more to learn on the footwork and spins required for a higher level. She didnt qualify for the higher level yet just because she had started landing an axel.

Spamama

j, but is this the case? I mean, given the post with the letter from ISI Asia about sandbagging, is the reason nothing's being done because no-one says anything?

I don't feel a "sweep it under the carpet" attitude is the right one to have, in any sport. It's almost like the skating community trys to enforce bully-boy tactics by saying "like it or find another sport"... it should not be that way

Spamama, I agree that just because you can land an axel doesn't mean she should be in the level where the axel is a required element. But clearly she can do well above what's required in the LTS program, and shouldn't that mean she should be encouraged to move up?

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AW1
mum to Miss Lil (6yrs old)
mum to be to #2 due in March 08

She was in Freeskate 4 (private lessons, not LTS) in November, she is Pre Pre now. She first competed at Basic 4 in July, (she has never gotten first place by the way) she just has progressed so fast in some elements she had a natural and surprising talent for, that she could almost not keep up with learning everything else. Single jumps just came very easy for her, but not everything else. She has lost her axel several times, but she is caught up on everything else now. Its been a strange year!

I was just making the point that just because you can land an axel once in awhile doesnt mean you can do the other skills yet. I was always afraid that people would think we were sandbagging too. Considering she first put on skates 18 months ago, I have been told not to worry.

Spamama

I don't know about the Australian levels, but I would be very careful about believing anyone in LTS who says they can land an axel. I was at the rink the other day and one mother pointed out a child on the ice and told me she was landing an axel. In fact, had landed "a number" of clean ones the day before. Well, I suppose if clean is defined as 1/2 a rotation short and landing on two feet, then it was clean. My point is, some coaches encourage kids to work on axels because it makes the kids and parents happy - not because it is appropriate for their development stage in skating.

I know of a number of kids who don't set up a waltz jump properly, can't do a proper flip or lutz, but are working on an axel. Some of them have "landed" it in a harness - again not nearly fully rotated - so they run around saying they have an axel.

My advice (which I find hard to follow myself ) is to ignore it all and say "how nice" when people make these comments. It drives me crazy but every time I have said something I live to regret it. Make sure your child is with a coach who is following an appropriate development plan and let the other parents worry about their kids.

While this doesn't seem fair, and everything inside you rages against it, I must agree...
I have learned from experience that to tread upon anothers dream of how talented their child is will cost you, and your daughter, a lot. I have learned that the best thing I can do while at the rink is keep my mouth shut, both about my child and her accomplishments, and the abilities of others' kids. ITA! It should not be that way, but trying to change something that others do not see as wrong will only wear you down and put you and your dd on the "outs"...and that is a lonely place to be. For the sake of my daughter, I have quit thinking I could make our rink a more friendly, fair place. Find another sport? It will be there also. No, it is NOT right, my dd's very first competition included someone at our rink that was sandbagging, and I felt terrible knowing that she didn't have a chance. But what made me feel better was that everyone else knew she was sandbagging also. Focus on you dd, and ONLY your dd. Smile and say "how nice", as Tennisany said, and change the subject. Your life at the rink will be much happier.

Someday, when this kid gets into a higher level, and starts getting beaten for the first time, there will be a rude awakening. Feel sorry for that child, that her parents and coach didn't feel confident enough in her abilities to actually let her "compete" for that gold.

yep yep yep yep...

Sorry Spamama, I should have re-read my post before adding the reply - by "she" I was actually talking about the girl I'm referring to in my original post, not your DD.

But in general, that's what I'm getting at is that someone who is clearly at a higher level than the LTS program, should be encouraged to take the next test and move into the 'real world' of skating ....

Hope that makes better sense?


Change has to start somewhere. If no-one starts it then it's destined to be like this forever. People agree it SHOULD NOT be like this in the sport. My daughter also does competitive gymnastics, and I have not seen sandbagging in that sport, so I find it hard to believe it exists everywhere and is the way of the world.

It took the voice of people speaking out before the government made Aboriginal Australians citizens If people had kept their mouths shut (as people keep advising me to do) then indigenous Australians & women for that matter, would still not be able to vote!

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AW1
mum to Miss Lil (6yrs old)
mum to be to #2 due in March 08

double post sorry

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AW1
mum to Miss Lil (6yrs old)
mum to be to #2 due in March 08

Shrug. You asked. If you've already made up your mind, then have at it. Who are you going to talk to? The parents? You honestly think if you tell the parents their child is in the wrong level they are going to listen to you? Are you going to talk to the child's coach? The club? The USFSA? The USFSA is aware of sandbagging, they are not "bullying" anyone...they are trying to address the issue, but it is complicated. A lot of people cry sandbagging, when really, that's just not the case.

If you want to get involved on a policy level on club boards or the organization to try to address the problem, I say go for it. But complaining to and about a particular skater? That is not going to solve anything, and is only going to make you look bad. I have nothing against looking bad, but usually there should be some pay off for looking bad. But there is just no pay off here. "Saying something" will not accomplish your goal.

Just one opinion from someone who's been involved in this sport on many levels for many years. And who as a pastor for 20 years, knows a lot about people, and how to and how not to go about addressing problems in an organization.

j

I think there's a difference between saying to your coach "'Bout time young so-and-so moved up, don't you think?", or, indeed, saying to the other parent, "Isn't your skater doing well - I suppose she'll be moving up next season?" and making a formal complaint. After all, the reply to "I suppose she'll be moving up next season" might easily be, "Well, no, because her coach says she really must work on her basic skating before she moves up" or something of that sort.

My niece is a very talented dressage rider, and with her present horses, she's winning everything she enters. My brother said the other day that everybody else now groans when they see their lorry entering the showground! Dressage is even more expensive than skating, plus you have to qualify the horses, as well as the rider.... so my niece is entering the correct classes for her skill level, despite nearly always winning.

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Mrs Redboots
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Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

j, I'd actually already discussed this with my daughter's coach prior to posting - I was just wondering what other people would do. "at what point" you would say something.

I wouldn't approach the parents - apart from the fact I rarely see them, and I think speaking to their coach would fall on deaf ears.

I think speaking to my daughter's coach was the right thing to do. She is going to check out her skating because she's one of the skate school testers. If something needs to be changed, I'm confident she will do something about it.

Maybe it's a change of the LTS program rules which says that once they have acquired all the skills required in that level they cannot compete at that level for more than a certain period of time or something like that. I know there have been instances where others at the LTS program have been booted out because it was found they'd previoiusly passed a higher level (preliminary for example) - even though they were only back in LTS to update and refresh their skills.

I'm in Australia, so we don't have USFSA - we have ISA and state associations.

But I think it's something that needs to be looked at from a grass roots level. If people (regardless of age) are executing skills way above their current "level" it needs to be looked at. And saying nothing does nothing.

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AW1
mum to Miss Lil (6yrs old)
mum to be to #2 due in March 08

It might also help indirectly if your club had some way to honor skaters for tests passed. We list the tests passed for the year in our show program, and buy the test patches for the kids. We also link performance in the show to test level - you can't have a solo unless you've passed at least a certain test, and your test level determines how long your number is allowed to be. These are the regular USFSA tests - kids in the Basic Skills program can only be in Basic Skills group numbers. If they want better parts in the show, they need to join the club and start testing there. I agree with others that for you to say anything is risky. Talking to your child's coach is okay, but have her handle it from this point. As long as your skater is competing against the skater who is sandbagging, there's no way you can say anything without it sounding like sour grapes on your part.

I'm thinking of suggesting this at our club. Right now, to get a solo you just have to buy so much club ice hours. And do so much volunteer work. Yea so really you can essentially buy your kid a solo. Which I did this year...but at least she's an intermediate skater! The show is a big production and costs a lot of money and loses money and I understand the only way to get the money is to use that as an incentive, but I think in ADDITION to shelling out the bucks, you should pass a minimum test -- so that kids are encouraged to test up, so that they can feel like having a solo means more than your mom was able to scrape up the money to buy you the ice time and so that you don't have this beautiful produced show and pre-pre- kids doing solos. No offense to pre-pre parents, I was one once but I would not have allowed her to do a solo in a show like this back then. The way it is now, shoot, if I bought enough ice time I could do a solo and trust me - nobody wants to see that!

j

We have one skater that our girls compete against who is most definitely a sandbagger and everyone knows it. So now when they see they are in a flight with her, they know the most they can hope for is a silver and if they get it to them its as good as gold! It's so sad and I honestly think she doesn't enjoy competing as much as the rest of the girls do, as she never talks to or interacts with anyone other than her mother and her coach. She carries her medals around with her on her skate bag, for crying out loud! For a competition she comes in, competes, gets her medals and leaves. What fun is that? Medals aren't everything.

That's a really nice idea - do you include tests passed at other clubs, or just at your own club's test sessions? I'm thinking about the logistics of keeping track accurately. In my area, oversights are not allowed - it's considered a major slight if a name is left out because the volunteer didn't know about a test passed six states away.

AW1: I would NOT say anything to anyone. It just fuels the bleacher fires. (Even the coaches are part of that network.) They'll start clucking about what a bad sport you are and how you think... you get the picture.

I agree that skaters should have to move up if they're dominating a level because of sandbagging. Keeping track, year-to-year, for each competition is a burden for our comp dir's because there are so many skaters/levels. It would have to be done on the honor policy in our area, and you're dealing with people who'd rather see their kids get gold than be challenged. Just MHO.

Even if there's a sticking point keeping the skater from moving up a test level, let's say the Axel, it forces the skater to learn something about determination. "I WILL get this jump. I need this jump to pass the test. I need to pass the test in order to compete." If that's the only element holding them back, practicing a perfect lower-level routine over and over isn't going to help them master the axel. They're not goal-setting, they're just coasting along at the same level.

Guilty! I used to bring a stuffed penguin (who had his own skates and ID badge) that "wore" all my medals at competitions. It was a gift from a friend and everyone used to rub the penguin's belly for good luck before they skated. We were adults, btw. LOL I found him in the attic a few weeks ago, sans medals. (They've been put away.)

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Yes, we include all tests, whether they were passed at home or not. The Test Chair prepares the list, so it's accurate - all tests get reported to her anyway. Also, certain club officers (I'm one) have access to a club roster listing all tests (both pass and retry) on the Members Only section of the US Figure Skating web site. So I can check the test status of any club member when we're putting the show together, and just double check the most recent tests passed with the Test Chair in case they haven't been listed on the web site yet. We also honor those who have passed the highest test in their discipline by listing their name, the test, and the date passed on a placque that's kept in the trophy case.

It might help if the USFSA freestyle tests were a little closer to what is expected at a competition level. I was really naive when I passed adult pre-bronze, I thought that meant I would be competing against other people doing what I could do - a waltz jump, and a half flip and a half lutz....hahaha. When I competed at adult mids - most of the competitors in the no-test event would have beat me!

Nowadays...most coaches will not let kids test pre-pre until they have an axel. When my daughter passed pre-pre-- she couldn't even do a sit spin and she got beat up that first year by girls who had been in pre-pre for years....But she wanted to do a lutz which was not allowed in most beginning events, and she was proud that she could pass the test and wanted to test and her coach asked her - "Do you want to move up and progress in the sport or do you want to collect medals" .

I think sandbagging is really it's own punishment because it keeps you from progressing.

OTOH, you cannot be real quick to judge. I was really annoyed by all the sandbagging at pre-pre and blamed a lot of my daughter's last place finishes on that...but now looking back at the videos, it wasn't all sandbaggers that beat her. She just wasn't that good but I couldn't see it at the time

Now there is a girl she knows who she competes against a lot at intermediate. Lots of girls call this girl a sandbagger. She could easily pass novice and at local competitions her level of skating is so much better than everyone else, once she had the flu and fell on almost every jump and she still won. Sandbagger? Time to move up? Well at regionals she skated her best and just missed going to nationals. Can you blame her for wanting to try to get to Nationals? I don't. And obviously she's not a sandbagger if she didn't make it in the top 4. She's just a lot better than her local competition, but not that great against against a wider, bigger field. In fact without her, the others might have an unrealistic idea of what intermediate skating looks like!

Finally when my daughter was at open juv, she started placing well - she was often the only one with a double lutz (that's not the case anymore). Both her coach and I encouraged her to just stay there for awhile--that she had spent enough time getting beat up and she deserved to enjoy placing well. Was she sandbagging? I don't think so, but probably all the girls who didn't have double lutzes thought so. She ended up getting tired of being open juv and tested up sooner than her coach would have liked anyway.

And if they did make the freestyle tests harder, people who don't compete, but just want to test and move up would complain.

j

ITA, jskater49 - I remember when my daughter first competed and it's funny how at the time all the beginner class skaters looked brilliant, but now they're not. Though my daughter's definitely competed against a fair few sandbaggers. They've changed the rules now to limit the jumps you can do at each level still more, but when she went into level 2 (with a toeloop and a salchow, the jumps required for the test) everyone else had all the jumps up to the axel, and most had the axel too.

I think the show thing, and having what people look at be your test level rather than what you say you can do, is a good way to go - that's how our rink used to do it, back when we had a Christmas show with group numbers for different levels. If you didn't have any tests, you were in the group with the LTS kids, and if you were real lucky the number would include a spiral 5 yards long.

Personally, my daughter isn't the world's most natural performer, her coordination is poor at best, and her coach and I decided when she was doing figure that she was better off testing up and feeling good about being in a higher level, than staying down and getting beaten by the kids who were naturals anyway.

When I competed in ballroom dancing, whenever a pair of dancers would take like, both in Latin and in Ballroom the first medals in one competition or get first medals in several competitions in a row, everybody would talk behind their back that it was high time they moved up. They rarely did. Some people would rather win a medal on a very low level than nothing on a high level.

hmm I see what you mean. I have just had this transition... boy is it a shock to enter the real world! however, I just had my last LTS lesson yesterday and I realised I'd rather be falling on my bum with my salchow and barely spinning on my spins whilst watching all these amazing skaters than going slowly round the bend doing bunny hops which I can do already.

I wouldn't win any medals for my current level of skating (UK silver) but it gives me more satisfaction than even 10 medals for bunny hops and cross rolls would.

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I've seen this many times, both as a skater myself and a coach. It's so common anymore to see skaters "sandbagged" nowadays, and I agree with others that holding a skater back is unfair, both to the skater and his/her competitiors.There are several skaters I know of that compete Preliminary, but who I have seen land a double lutz consistently. Really, what can you do anyway? I wouldn't say anything, as frustrating as it may be. Unfortunately, this happens in the "real world" of skating...

This is what my daughter said to me in the car on the way home from a competition tonight "no matter what I do mum, it's just not good enough! even when I'm trying my hardest".

This could have been the make or break defining moment for my daughter because she puts in so much hard work and feels like she doesn't get recognised for it.

I know that with her gymnastics, she puts in alot of hard work there too, but she always seems to feel like she's been rewarded for it no matter what happens...

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AW1
mum to Miss Lil (6yrs old)
mum to be to #2 due in March 08

Are there any competitions you can go to where these other girls will NOT be?
This is a little off topic, but it comes back around at the end, stay with me...We don't have any really bad sandbagging right now at our rink, but the level of unhealthy competitiveness is pretty high. The cattiness skyrockets right before a competition, and it gets really old. My daughter comes home wondering why girls that used to like her before are giving her the meanest looks and being really ugly to her. It makes me dread the weeks before any competition. We recently went to a competition that no one else from our rink went to. There was no stress, no worrying about which rinkmates she was competing against, no dirty looks. It was such a stress free environment, that I can't wait to do it again. Maybe you can find a competition like that, where you can go and your dd can compete against others that she might have a chance against, for a change. That's not to say there won't be some girls sandbagging there, but at least you won't know that ahead of time.