Exactly. I always think of keeping my toepick just a few inches above the ice as I reach back to pick (and of course, pointed directly down toward the ice, no turnout in the foot). It's a very common mistake to lift the foot just before picking, and that gives you a bent knee and also makes you bang the ice unnecessarily hard with the toepick. So you feel like you have power because you're picking so hard, but you pick too close to the picking foot you don't get a good grip in the ice and you end up trying to jump up without pulling yourself back with the pick first. There's a lot of wasted energy for the amount of jump you get.

Oh boy. Doubletoe, everything you are saying matches what I was taught
20 years ago and matches my thinking about flips & 1/2 flips.

You are right about speed into the jump, I sure can go heaps faster with a flat mohawk entry and a real reach back with a straight leg. Unfortunately I have developed some faults. To avoid that common fault of getting upright before picking which results in not picking far enough back, I have developed a forward lean which throws my rotation off, and I tend to jump from the non-picking leg.

There is no doubt I am landing more often using the newer technique, but it doesn't feel like a flip to me. Nor does the 1/2 flip, it feels more like a ballet jump sort of thing, landing on the same toe as picking. Apparently it is taught that way to help people get used to landing on the right foot for the landing of the full flip. I just can't imagine getting any speed or height into the jump this way though, it is a little hop, not the powerful big jump I used to do.

I am skating this morning and hope to get a chance to focus on the two different techniques, see what I can figure out. I'll let you know what I learn later.

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Karen

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Well, although I've never tried it myself, I can definitely see the point of doing the version where you take off and land on the same toe, since it trains you to stay over your landing side in the air. And yes, leaning forward as you reach back to pick makes it really hard to get enough weight onto your picking toe and get any leverage. I try to imagine a huge magnetor vacuum cleaner is pulling me back, so that my head and back/shoulders pull back as well!

Oops, not a new type of vacuum cleaner. I meant "magnet or vacuum cleaner" LOL!

Thank you for explaining that so clearly! I've been having trouble with that with my flips (and saw *just* how bad it was on a recent video). The pulling back as I pick has been a problem, not so much for the flip (because I can land and rotate it most of the time even if I'm not pulling back well) but with working on the 1/2 lutz and the lutz, that's definitely fouling me up.

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Umm what I learned today is that when you have a hip injury that keeps getting worse instead of better, and you are at Aussie Skate session, that it is completely unrealistic to attempt to compare different jumping techniques.

Looks like I could be out of action for a week or 2 or more until I fix this hip.

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Karen

I skate - therefore I am

That's what I thought, too. I tried landing both ways, and I think it adds to one's versatility to be able to do so.

For the sake of argument, my coach tells me that a true 1/2 flip (we're talking semantics here) takes off & lands on opposite toes. If you are to be judged, make sure you do it that way.

Jon

So the takeoff foot..would that be the one that's not being used to pick?

I'm currently working on half flip--it's probably my biggest, best, and most consistant jump for now. I first learned it from the mohawk entry. My coach taught me the 3-turn entry just before I broke my ankle. I immediately liked it better, but lost height with changing the entry. It is coming back now. She just recently taught me to land them on the same foot I pick with. I dread to think that this means she's going to push for me to start a full rotation.

Assuming CCW;

Right foot picks, rotate 1/2 turn, left foot taps pick and glide out on RFI.

A little like a reverse mazurka, at least in my mind.

Jon

Trust me, you are going to LOVE the full flip!

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Karen

I skate - therefore I am

Yes, it becomes even more crucial on the lutz takeoff. I always find that it helps to think that I'm being pulled back by a big magnet or suction/vacuum cleaner. It makes me pull my back and shoulders back instead of leaning forward, and that helps me get my weight on the picking toe once the pick goes into the ice. If your torso is leaning even a little bit forward when you reach back to pick (and that's what it will do if you are subconsciously afraid of the jump), then your weight is on your front foot and there's just no way to get enough weight onto the picking foot. The result is that you get a weak pick and you have nothing to pull yourself back and up with. The pick may even slip out from under you.

Just before she changed to where I land same foot, I was starting to rotate just a little past half. Not much, but enough to get excited about.

I can't wait to get my salchow consistant--it feels like flying.

That's the only way I've seen it done, ever...

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The flip is called the toe salchow in some parts of the world...for good reason. The jumps are very similar. Though obviously one has a toe assist and feels overall considerably different, they're similar enough that you can set up for either with the other's method, etc. Just be careful about doing cheated flips that are really salchows with a bit of a toe tap in the middle - I used to do that.

The flip is my favorite jump. I suspect I will like the lutz more if I can ever get the darn thing again (have landed a good one only once) simply because the half lutz is absolutely delightful.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
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Salchows? Eeew! That is one jump I have just never figured out. I do them, of course, but can't say I have ever liked them.

Lutzes I haven't tried since my return to skating. They used to scare me. I'm on of those who did them from a long back outside edge, and waited until the barrier was so close that I had to decide whether to jump or abort. I am determined to get these better this time around.

Flips have always been my favourite jump. Before that it was 1/2 flips, but toe-loops will always have a special place for me.

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Karen

I skate - therefore I am

Toe loops? Eeew! That is one jump I have just never figured out!! I'm sure my technique is awful on them or something because they just don't feel right. At all. I can imagine doing any double except for a double toe.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
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I'm with Casey here--toe loops are my least favorite for right now. I'll have to wait for a full decision until I actually learn loop and axel.

I enjoy my lutz too--it's just not as good as my flip, but at least it is reasonably consistant and on the outside edge.

Yup. You can see it on the tracings--the take-off edge will curve around behind the pick mark. I was just learning the flip (teaching myself, really), and this was what I was doing. It's probably a good thing I stopped skating shortly after that, otherwise I'd have ingrained a nasty little habit! My salchow was my best jump, and it just felt weird to not launch the knee up and around as you do with that.

I really enjoyed half-flips, but after reading this thread, I'm sure that I was probably bending the knee and 'dropping' the pick too much. If I ever get back to skating, I hope I'll remember that, and maybe avoid re-learning the bad habit this time around!

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Man I'm posting a lot of threads this week. So, apparently I'm jumping around and not up, and that's not good. So, I have a couple of questions. Do you jump entirely off of the right toepick, or do you use both feet? And, how can I focus on jumping up, instead of trying to jump around to get the rotation? I used to really like this jump. That's what tendonitis will do for you.