I've been struggling with this (picking behind) for a while. I just recently learned the flip so that's 2 jumps that pick behind. Here's my problem...I pick too close to my skating foot. I know that I should bend more and pick further behind me but for some reason it's not happening. When I do pick, I get the transfer of weight so that isn't an issue.

Anyone have tips/techniques on or off ice for helping to fix this?

__________________
Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I'm told to walk the motion. So I just pick behind and either moonwalk back (to get the pull back movement) or just jump up. The focus I'm having for my flip is to get the weight transfer, but I did the same exercise when I was first learning the jump to get the pick far enough behind. I find that doing this without the jumping lets me focus on just the picking and body position.

A coach I teach with showed me this trick: Skate slowly backwards on one foot (whichever is the non-picking foot). Reach back with the picking foot, pick in and slowly draw the feet together. Repeat. It works better for the flip than the toe loop.

The problem could also be coming from the entry. If you're rushing, you could be drawing your feet together before you really get off the ground. Walk through the jumps slowly, focusing on the down-up-down motion of the three turn.

Think of bending the skating knee and drawing the toe you're picking with back while keeping it low, and keeping your skating leg bent. If you get this concept down on your flip, it will help you when you get to your lutz. There's nothing worse than a toe jump where the skater comes way up in the skating leg while free leg comes way up and then jabs into the ice.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Not rushing, just skating like an adult (stiff legs hahaha). My entry is a 3-turn with a 2/3 count: LFO edge 1-2-(turn)-1-2-(hopefully pick).....

When I draw the feet together, should they end up side-by-side or crossed (backspin position)?

__________________
Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Ever so slightly crossed, with your left heel (CCW flip) to the right of your right toes. You don't want to cross tightly, or let the left foot go completely sideways to the right foot, because in the jump you're going to lift up the knee before the foot reaches that position. Also, you want to keep your weight forward while doing this, don't pull the shoulders back.

How close do you pick? I have the opposite problem- I pick too far out. I don't feel like I am, and I'm not TRYING to extend out, it's just wear the foot goes. My coach always comes up and asks me if I'm going for a quad. I guess based on what he's telling me, it's not possible to pick too close, as long as (for toe loop... I rarely work on flip yet) as long as you can still get the pivot.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

My last coach told me that I must not draw the feet together, that I must lead with my left knee (CCW) through before pushing off the right toe-pick.

Prior to this I always thought I was to pull back until my left foot met my right before jumping. Totally confused now.

__________________
Katz

Saved by Synchro!
I was over it, now I'm into it again !

My coach will often tell me to do something (that isn't quite what she wants me to do) as a correction for an error i'm making.

On the flip - i used to two foot the take off - i'd draw the non-picking foot back level with the picking foot and sometimes past and even around the skating foot so the tracing on the ice would show a clear curve around the spike in the ice where i had picked in.

In order to get me to stop doing it she made me think "pick" and "lift left knee" at the same time. So while i don't pick and lift the left knee in the same moment - it shortened the draw back to a "normal" amount and stopped me two footing the take off.

Every now and then i go back to spending longer than I should on the take off edge and we think about lifting the knee again.

Same with comments on things like my salchow - she will say kick through straight not around and we'll both acknowledge that in thinking "straight through" you won't actualy kick straight through there will be some "around", but since i get too much "around" if i think "straight" i get it just right.

Ant

As I understand it, the "pull back" exercise is more to work on keeping the glide going as you pick in. I see a lot of skaters learning toe loops and flips that stop dead the second they put the toe in, and they jump off two feet. If you wait until your feet are together before jumping up, you won't get any distance.

And I agree with Ant, your coach may be telling you to do something not so logical/overexaggerated the other way, to counteract what you're doing wrong.

Hmm, maybe. But this was right from the beginning, before I started working on the jump with her. Of course, she would've seen me doing it in practise...

__________________
Katz

Saved by Synchro!
I was over it, now I'm into it again !

I have a similar question...

But it's more of a tracing kind of question.

Which tracing should a flip leave, assuming the skater skate CCW?

Maroon tracings for the picking, purple for the landing



Does the OP means that she picks like 1 and 2?

What does it mean to pick like 2, and land like 3?

Well I know 2 is cheated and wouldn't count under IJS because that's what i'm trying not to do.

Wow! tons of tips/responses and bunches questions!
Although I intend to pick far out, I practically pick just behind my foot. I 3-turn, bend down but not far enough and my pick is maybe 3-6" behind me (not really behind...see below) because by then, I've straightened up and it's messed up....a real train wreck!
I like this-I don't "lift" the left knee at all (I don't really think about doing anything with it really-just concentrating on not falling haha). I get the weight shift ok, I will work on incorporating this-perhaps more off ice then on ice. As for the salchow, I also had to work on the kick-more like you I had to kick like I'm doing a waltz jump in order for it to go where it's supposed to.
#1 is me, for sure! This is only for the flip however. For the toe-loop, it's #4 and my toe-loop is good and the landing one is #1. On the toe-loop I'm even working on lifting the left leg, because I've worked on that jump such a long time I can "autopilot" easier and not have to concentrate 1,000% on everything, just 500% on certain things LOL!

__________________
Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

A few things to try on your flip:

1) To make sure you are picking in the right place on your circle, do a LFO 3-turn on one of the hockey circles, staying on the circle as you exit the 3-turn and reach back to pick. Now pick as though you are doing a flip (you can just pop up and land on two feet). Look at your pick mark. It should be on the circle, not inside the circle or outside the circle.

2) To keep from picking too close:
(a) Keep your back arched and upright; do not lean forward. I find that it helps to imagine someone is pulling me back by my bra strap. I also keep the left arm high and right in front of me and make sure I can still see the fingers of my left hand when my pick goes into the ice.
(b) Bend your left knee deeply as you reach back to pick, and keep your weight on the heel of your left foot.
(c) On the entrance edge, keep your picking leg locked out straight behind you, with the foot pointed straight down toward the ice and held just a few inches above the ice. Do NOT lift the foot just before picking; stick it in directly from that pointed, held position and pull yourself back and up.

__________________
"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

#1 on a flip entrance is very common. It's usually caused by one (or several) of a few things:

• failure to keep the right shoulder checked back after the 3-turn
• dropping the right shoulder and/or hip during or after the 3-turn
• delay in picking causing the edge to curve too much
• a too-curvy 3-turn that doesn't check on the backward edge

Any of these sound like you? It could even be that you're reaching back far enough, but other factors are causing you to pick too close.

(BTW, am I the only one who doesn't get the landing drawings? I thought those were toe loop takeoffs until I read the text. Is the circle a toe pick mark??)

I don't get the landing drawings either!

I assumed that the circle was meant to be a toe pick mark. I do tend to drop my right shoulder when I do the jump...when I do just the 3-turn I don't. I think it's a matter of overload and too many things to concentrate on.
Coach has had me re-learn the 3-turns (was taught incorrectly YEARS ago) and I am doing them on the circle....I am to cover 1/2 the circle making sure entrance/exit are about equal. I will look to see where I'm picking (I'm pretty sure it will not be on the line LOL).
2(a) I do drop my right shoulder when I do the flip (but not the 3-turn), I haven't focused on the left arm
2(b) I haven't done this, as far as I know my weight is about mid-foot, so this might help
2(c) I know I bend my leg, which compounds the issue but I will try hard to correct it. It comes from a few years back when we were told we could not JAB into the ice (we were not allowed to make holes in the ice).

I'm suddenly finding the loop so much easier since I've started working on the flip....I cannot imagine what horrors are in store when we start on the lutz and the axel

__________________
Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

This thread needs to be stickied.

Can someone explain the landing drawings? Why would there be a random toe-pick mark off to the side of the END of the landing?

I agree! We should have stickies for each skating thing!
I thought that the circle was the "pick" and the line was the glide out....and that it was upside down in relation to the other drawings.

__________________
Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I enhanced the drawing, hope this makes it better. My apologies to the original poster.

__________________
Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Is the pick mark drawn on the landing still the mark from the takeoff? and are the curves going the wrong way on the landing?

This is how I visualize the tracing for a flip, including landing. (I put an x for the toepick on the landing, too, because I'm not sure if the marks in the original landing drawing are meant to be the takeoff toepick mark, or another mark that's actually part of the landing)

I'm not 100% sure since we haven't heard from the one that posted the drawing, but maybe we can assume that the X is the pick/takeoff since that part of the discussion was talking about lining everything up. I like your drawing a lot-very nice! My toe-loop is lined up like that.

__________________
Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Hi

What I do know is that when I tried to do the toe loop during my lesson, my coach always said that for a start, I did not pick far enough.

Now most of the time if this is attempted during the lesson, then after being reminded of by the coach about my problems, I will land and jump the correct way.

Sometimes it is still hard for me to tell whether this problem still exists when I do this during practise.

londonicechamp