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  #26  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:22 AM
Isk8NYC Isk8NYC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue111moon View Post
Threes change edges, twizzles (and loops) do - or should - not.
That makes sense to me for some reason - I'm going to try it today and see why it appeals to me, lol. Maybe I can draft our resident ice dance coach into demonstrating a few and I'll photograph the tracings with my phone.


Maybe they've noticed the "checking" of the double threes as your foot turns while attempting a twizzle? The double three rolls up more to the front of the blade to execute each turn, whereas a good twizzle looks as if the blade is turning on the middle of the foot effortlessly. I have some students who learned twizzles in a group lesson setting and they're doing double threes - you can see the stop/start of each edge because they rock on the blade.

I just took a seminar where the elite dance coach said the key to avoiding the "double three" evaluation is to keep the skating knee steady - either straight or bent - on twizzles, and that the shoulders/arms don't move from the sides. He also suggested keeping the leading shoulder back slightly in the direction of the rotation. (Almost cross-checking)

The uber-coach was asked to demonstrate both and you can see the difference in the movement more easily than the difference in the tracings. There were no loops on the ice after either, though, and I don't think the judges can SEE the tracings during a test or competition.

Perhaps your body position and blade usage is what's causing your twizzles to be called double threes?
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  #27  
Old 08-23-2010, 12:44 PM
jjane45 jjane45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isk8NYC View Post
I just took a seminar where the elite dance coach said the key to avoiding the "double three" evaluation is to keep the skating knee steady - either straight or bent - on twizzles, and that the shoulders/arms don't move from the sides. He also suggested keeping the leading shoulder back slightly in the direction of the rotation. (Almost cross-checking)
Thank you, great tips!
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  #28  
Old 08-23-2010, 05:16 PM
Clarice Clarice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue111moon View Post
Threes change edges, twizzles (and loops) do - or should - not.
According to my coach, who is master rated in figures and dance, this is not correct. Twizzles do not stay on the same edge like loops do. That's why the tracings look like double three turns except closer together. The difference between a twizzle and a double three is that the twizzle is not checked. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't continue to practice as coached - it's entirely possible that your coach is trying to correct something specific about your technique. But if you try to make twizzles stay on the same edge you're going to set yourself up for a different error.
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  #29  
Old 08-24-2010, 10:33 AM
Isk8NYC Isk8NYC is offline
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I worked on RFI twizzles last night with my student and I think I have an idea as to why there are differing opinions. When I do twizzles, I'm really just moving from side to side on the blade, changing edges, but staying on the rocker with little forward/backward movement. I press down with the ball of my foot to control the blade. Definitely changing edges, but not visibly to the spectator.

The student's first attempts at a Twizzle were just double threes - it was obvious she was rolling up and down the blade and you could see the shoulders checking/forcing each turn.

Once I corrected her arms (waving those too-high synchro arms again! ) and had her keep the knee steady, she almost managed that motionless edge change with very little front-to-back blade rocking. Not bad for a no-test skater.

Of course, all bets are off when she starts using her new skates, lol.

FWIW, the USFSA patterns show twizzles as pointy-looking consecutive turns, not as loops.

The new PSA Moves in the Field book (5th Edition) defines as twizzle as:

Quote:
Twizzle: A traveling turn on one foot with one or more rotations, which is quickly rotated with a continuous (uninterrupted) action. The weight remains on the skating foot with the free leg in any position during the turn, and then placed beside the skating foot to skate the next step. A series of checked three-turns is not acceptable, as this does not constitute a continuous action. If the traveling action stops during the execution, the twizzle becomes a solo spin (pirouette). This four different types of entry edges for twizzle are forward inside, forward outside, backward inside, and backward outside.
Hmmm... pirouette - haven't seen that word used in skating since the late 1970's.

I'm stumped on the twizzled loop tracings, sorry. Maybe they're tracing "spoons" or performing a "traveling spin/backspin." Hope you master it, either way. Things that make me go hmmmm....


In the PSA MITF book, a loop is defined as:

Quote:
Loop: A teardrop-shaped turn formed within a circle, skated on a small circle approximately equal to the height of the skater, and on the same edge throughout.
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  #30  
Old 08-24-2010, 11:21 AM
fsk8r fsk8r is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isk8NYC View Post

Once I corrected her arms (waving those too-high synchro arms again! ) and had her keep the knee steady, she almost managed that motionless edge change with very little front-to-back blade rocking. Not bad for a no-test skater.

FWIW, the USFSA patterns show twizzles as pointy-looking consecutive turns, not as loops.
Bizarrely if you said synchro arms to me on twizzles I drop the arms to my side as that's the way I've been taught to do them for synchro. And before I was taught "synchro" arms, I was holding them in ballet position.

I think the loops come when your weight is not fully over the skating foot. I tend to drop to the inside edge and draw loops then. But I do that on my backspin as well. When I'm upright the twizzle draws a pattern on the ice like a double 3, but as said before the knee isn't moving and there's no checking between the turns.
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  #31  
Old 08-24-2010, 11:29 AM
Isk8NYC Isk8NYC is offline
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Oh no, don't get me wrong: the synchro coaches do teach twizzles with arms down, hands touching the side of the hips/thighs. The high arms to the side, as if she's in a shoulder hold, is a habit she's developed from Synchro. I have to remind her that no one else can see her invisible skating partners, lol. (She says the synchro coach taught twizzles, but I suspect she either didn't memorize everything the coach taught, or she self-taught herself twizzles. That's happened in the past. It means means extra reminders and some unteaching/reteaching, which sets us back in lessons.)

Meh. At least she's not slouching or putting her hands in her pockets. There are worse things in this world.

I also learned it with ballet arms and I find that the skater breaks at the waist easier that way, which stops the "continuous movement" and uncontrolled finishes. I find the twizzles much easier with the hands down at the sides, so I thought it might help others, which is why I mentioned it.
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  #32  
Old 08-24-2010, 12:08 PM
RachelSk8er RachelSk8er is offline
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Originally Posted by fsk8r View Post
Bizarrely if you said synchro arms to me on twizzles I drop the arms to my side as that's the way I've been taught to do them for synchro. And before I was taught "synchro" arms, I was holding them in ballet position.

Yeah, if I'm doing a twizzle, my arms drop straight down by my sides. You do a twizzle in a NHSS with your arms out, and you're smacking your teammates in the face. Not good.

Synchro skaters should not be skating with their arms out any more. Programs are not done with 98% of it holding on these days and haven't for several years now. My last team did step sequences in both blocks and our circle at no hold and our line at hands. Our arms were all over the place in different holds in the rest of our block, the only time we were really holding onto shoulders was in our wheel and when traveling our circle.
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  #33  
Old 08-24-2010, 12:59 PM
Isk8NYC Isk8NYC is offline
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You're talking about a high level team, not a Beginner team and no test skater. The "98% no holds" doesn't affect the Beginner teams, which are governed by Basic Skills. Those programs are expected to skate lines with holds. The higher level teams do have segments with lines/blocks/etc. that require the more advanced skating. I wonder if that will change the issue from too-high shoulders/arms to too-low shoulders/arms among the lower-level skaters.

Skaters who spend 3-4 hours on the ice skating synchro under supervision, then spent at most 2 hours on the ice skating independently seem to struggle with switching over to singles style for the 30 minute lesson. It's just muscle memory fighting for dominance and I guess it just takes time, practice and lots of reminders.
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Last edited by Isk8NYC; 08-24-2010 at 01:01 PM. Reason: 98%, not 90%
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