I've just got back from Guildford Opens where my daughter competed in the level 1 class. My daughter is dyspraxic (for those who don't know what it is, it is basically a minor problem with co-ordination) but her overall skating is improving all the time and technically she's quite strong, just weaker on the presentation side.

Anyway she had a really good skate - all her jumps were clean - loop, flip, lutz-loop combination and salchow, and she did a reasonable sit spin (could have been lower but it was OK), and a 2 revolution camel spin. There were a couple of skaters there who were technically less able than my daughter. One had a weakish loop-loop, loop, salchow and waltz jump, a scratch spin and a far worse sit spin than my daughter's, and another was pretty much the same with a poor sit spin and no lutz or flip. However both placed higher than my daughter and quite honestly we are wondering what the judges are looking for. Her style didn't really stand out as being worse but the marks didn't reflect the elements she did and did well. My coach was baffled and mentioned getting feedback off the judges but didn't in the end. I asked if it was because she only made two revs on her camel spin and wondered if they discounted it due to lack of revs and therefore a basic upright spin done well would get more marks but my coach didn't know. Does anyone know if this is the case?

We just find it very frustrating when she's skating the best she's ever skated yet always finishes right down near the bottom. Invariably there were kids in the class who were obviously being held down at that level in order to win medals. We can handle that - that's life in skating (though it shouldn't be), but watching her go out and skate better than others and seeing them score higher when they have lower elements is very demoralising. We are aware that it's not just about elements but basic skating as well but she's definitely not lacking in that either. She has a nice programme overall. We are going to see how she feels in the next few days with regard as to whether to compete again or not.

If there are any coaches or judges here who can throw some light on what she needs to do to impress the judges I'd love to know!

Nicki

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Well, I'm not a coach or a judge, but I can definitely commiserate with you and your daughter. I've had more than my share of last place finishes. Every time, when I'd look at the tapes afterward, it seemed that the judges were looking for something different (jump height, speed, presentation, etc) than they were at the previous comp. It's frustrating. I did end my last-place streak in early May, then it began anew a few weeks ago (I was skating a level higher than I usually do). I'm not the most coordinated person, either, so it has been a challenge to smooth out my footwork and stroking and other in-betweens. A little girl I skate with also had a frustrating time with last place finishes, which ended a few weeks ago and she was thrilled - she got 3rd out of 4 but 1 judge had her 1st.

I actually talked to a couple of judges at the New Year's Invitational in February (with Jenlyon's help) and I found it helpful - just to know that they weren't being as nitpicky as I thought or simply disliked my music, hair, or dress or other silly stuff. They both said to me that my elements were done well but that I looked awkward during the in-betweens. And that my stroking and transitions needed improvement. I kept their comments in mind as I watched the video and I could see that they were right - and I noticed that I looked down a lot, unlike the others. So I worked to have better flow and smoothness and to present to the audience more - which was a challenge in Feb b/c the program was only a few weeks old. I think that's what paid off in May, b/c I honestly felt that my elements weren't as strong as at NYI, due to my basically dropping FS practice to focus on a field moves test a week and a half before the comp. But I know my speed improved, and I was more comfortable skating the program and it showed.

Tell your daughter not to lose hope - it takes time to feel comfortable skating a program for judges and an audience - and of course, as you pointed out, her results are somewhat dependent on how strong the field is. She can't control who she competes against, so the best (and most encouraging) thing for her to do is work on skating confidently and smoothly, and take pride in skating a personal best. If she can project her confidence and enjoyment of skating to the judges, that should go a long way.

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The same sentiment, or some variation on it, comes up here numerous times each year. The abbreviated answers usually boil down to:

1. The judges are looking for skating and in-betweens, not a bunch of jumps and spins with nothing in-between. They want to see good stroking and a solid "I'm comfortable on the ice" sense of security.

2. Presentation IS important. There's a reason there's a second score.

3. To be blunt: your child really isn't as technically strong as you think he/she is. Inexperienced parents and skaters often have a very warped sense of whether an element is completed, good, bad, wheatever and are notoriously bad at understanding the presentation score. Most parents have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to their own children.

4. It makes a difference if you're talking about ISI vs. USFSA. ISI has a lot of restricted events where you're penalized for doing elements from a higher level. This is often the case.

5. The obvious: we have no idea why the judges put your daughter in last place, because we didn't see her skate.

Just watch a lot more competitions and be patient. Get your coach to watch with you and try to explain the placements. And above all, do NOT let your daughter think it's okay to blame it all on the judges or think that they don't know what they're doing or that they don't like her hair/dress/music!

I consider participating judged sports of any kind to be a life lesson: Nothing is 100% fair.

Steady!!

Nicki, unfortunately as you know, its not like football, a goal is achieved and the team is credited for it. With skating it is down to someone else to say if you are good or not so good and being human, different people have different ideas on the subject, qualified or otherwise, which is why you can have judges differing so much sometimes in marks.

With me there is one particularly weak area in my basics that I am simply unable to overcome and have been beaten by people who normally compete in the upper level of dance, who have hardly any jumps or spins, because of it. I am aware of what this weak area is but alas after all these years it isnt going to improve. Its a pity you couldnt get a word with the judges in case its something you or her coach has missed, you are an experienced skater so it must be something that maybe even your coach hasn't noticed, which is easily done when you see them everyday and nothing to do with you being biased about your daughter.

If your daughter isnt too demoralised by this she will find that different areas usually have different judges, with different views of what is good and not so good and like ourselves she will have good and bad days and days when she wonders what on earth all the work she has done was all about, this is the bit where they usually decide to stay or leave.

With the kind a problems she has, she needs to feel in control of some things in her life, I'm glad you say that you are going to wait and see how she feels about it and are not making a decision for her. I guess her life has just been one uphill struggle, but with you on her side she will do just fine, trust me I know.

Good luck
Grace
xx

PS this is the last time I'm going to edit this thing!!

I'd like to thank all who took the time to reply.

I'd like to point out that I am not an inexperienced skater or parent. I've been skating for 14 years now and so I know pretty much when a jump is landed clean or not. I also would point out that I do not have some sort of warped sense in thinking my daughter is better than she is. I know she's never going to make the Olympics and that because of her problems she will always come in the lower half at competitions. There were a lot of surprised people there yesterday as she appeared to skate better than some of the others. It just makes me wonder if the judges were actually watching her. Mind you one judge had her placed quite high. Just the one that had her lower and this was what pulled her down below others who appeared less strong out there.

Nicki

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This is basically what I originally wrote but thought it should come from you Nicki and took it out.

Skaternun your comments are unhelpful and rude.

Well, then why does that statement about inexperienced parents offend you? You are experienced, so it doesn't apply. You didn't say that in your original post, so how are people supposed to know that you know thing one about skating?

I don't get it - are you looking for comiseration from other skaters about how judges suck, are blind, and your daughter was robbed? No one here can say without seeing your daughter skate why she was placed where she was, or what she needs to improve on. Clean jumps can still have bad technique. Camel spins can have poor positions and travel. There is no one key to "impressing" judges, and any of us pretending to know what it is would be a disservice to you and your daughter.

The way I came to peace with competition is to accept that it's all a toss-up. Sometimes you skate great and don't place as well as you expected. Sometimes you skate lousy and place higher than you expected. It's a human sport judged by humans, and if you get hung up too much on competition results you'll ruin the enjoyment of it. My coach always tells me to skate for myself. Set goals for myself (skate a clean program, get more revs on spins, etc), and concentrate on them - not beating others, or medaling, because you have no control over that. You only have control over how YOU skate. I have won competitions and been disappointed in my skate, and placed third and been proud of how I did. Sure, winning feels great, but setting a goal for myself and achieving it feels a thousand times better. Maybe this will be a healthier attitude and let you accept competition placements instead of worrying about them?

Oooh er. I only came on here to vent my frustration. Of course I don't expect anyone here to have the answers. Nobody was there to see, so how could I possibly expect that from anyone? As for not knowing about whether I'm a skater or not, I do visit this forum most days and post regularly as I have done for several years now, so I took it that most regular visitors here would know that I'm a skater myself.

As for your last paragraph I totally agree. I've always told my daughter (as I tell myself when I compete) the important thing is that we skate our best. She did and that's great. I couldn't have expected her to skate any better. She never expects to do well in competitions and being placed below kids who are technically a higher level though haven't taken tests is something that we are used to. Just that seeing skaters (one who consistantly places lower than my daughter due to her lack of technical ability) place higher does beg the question. If my daughter had gone out and had a trashy skate, then I'd understand but she didn't.

The bottom line is yes, nobody understands really what the judges want and different judges have different ideas of what's better as seen by the one judge who placed her quite high. I have a lot of respect for judges - I appreciate it's a tough job and I'm not doing the whole "judges suck" thing.

I just wish I'd kept my frustrations to myself though I do very much appreciate Debbie and Samba's feedback which was very helpful.

Up until now I've always found this a helpful and pleasant place to seek out advice. I hope I can continue to do so for years to come.

Nicki

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I know this is going to sound like bull because you're still upset at the possible unfairness that happened to your daughter. But this sport isn't fair. It's judged, it will NEVER be fair. Ever. People who participate in this sport (as you have for so long), know this. Sometimes there's a very good reason why somebody placed lower than you thought they should. I don't understand why the coach bailed on talking to the judges- he/she should have, that's their job if they think something went wrong. Then again it's sort of a sign that perhaps he agreed with the judging despite what he said to your face if he didn't ask them about it. Any coach whose student was blatantly held down would have wanted to know why so they could improve in the future. If he truly agreed that she was held down and then didn't bother to talk to the judges about it to know what to improve for next time, you might want to ask him why. That's totally unacceptable. It's part of his job to make sure your skater progresses and excels.

But back to the point: skating isn't fair, and it isn't about placements. You can't wonder why. I mean at the end of the day, it wasn't the Olympics, or Worlds, or even Nationals. Your daughter's future will not be decided by this one competition. So since it's not a career making/breaking blow she took here, I think it's perfectly appropriate to just do what they always tell you to: be happy about the way you skated, no matter what place you came in. Who cares if she didn't podium? If she skated the best she's ever skated, then that is a far bigger victory than beating other people whose skills and achievements she has no control over.

This mindset really is the only way to survive this sport. Mind your own skating, ignore everybody else's, because it does not matter. If it were a spot on the World team that this unfairness led to, I'd understand the utter need to have some explanation- because that is her entire future in the sport on the line. But in the grand scheme of things, one small comp changes nothing. So there's plenty of room to just let it go and be happy that your daughter apparently performed her personal best that day. That is what matters.

Sadly, Nicki, you can never control what the judges think! I still don't understand what one judge was looking at in the compulsory dances when they placed another couple ahead of us - I'm wondering (and from comments I've heard, other people wondered, too) if he was marking what he expected to see, and not what was actually there. As it turned out, it made no difference to our overall result, but if it had, I might be grinding my teeth yet!

And just look at the spread of marks that some of the solo compulsories got (weren't you marking, Friday morning?). It got to the point that we said we'd just go by what J*** B**** thought, and disregard the rest! And even the judges were laughing at themselves, and cheering when they actually agreed with one another!

I think I'm very glad I'm not a judge!

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Nope we can't control what the judges think. Daughter was very unlucky as J*** B**** stepped off the judging panel just before her class yesterday but she was back for daughter's artistic. She gave my daughter the second highest mark for her artistic and at our club's opens even told my daughter how much she enjoyed the programme. We are always pleased to see that judge on the panel as she's always very fair in our opinion. Two out of the three judges yesterday were judges even my coach hadn't come across before. I guess variety adds to it all!

Nicki

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This I totally agree with and I understand where you are coming from Nicki as it is like my free skate in the competition when I think 'what the F***' was the middle judge looking at to give me marks almost a mark lower than the other two and the lowest I've ever had in any competition in nearly 6 years of competing. Up til that point I had been quite pleased with my skate - I landed my loop and flip which I pleased with. During the next warm up you could see the other two judges having a go at him.

Similarly with my kids when they were marked down in pairs by one judge. So they were given the highest mark of any pair in the comp by one judge and near highest by the second judge and the lowest mark by far by the third which made the difference between 1st and 3rd. I know it was unfair judging because we came up against the same judge in a test situation who blantantly told my son she 'didn't like the way he looked'. Also the other pairs had all attended the novice pairs comp the previous month whilst my kids hadn't, since one was away on a school trip. Guess which judge had been at the novice pairs - the one who marked them low and thought they were new on the scene, even though in fact they had competed the previous year at novices. I used to refuse to believe any judges would mark on expectations but now I know different

To be fair to judges - I don't know how they can mark sometimes - it must be a very difficult job but I am under no illusions that it is always fair.

Just be sure you let your daughter know how proud you are of her skating and that unfortunately sometimes life isn't fair and there is nothing you can do but move on.

Note that in my posting I specifically said I was condensing the standard responses to previous posts about the same issue. Nowhere in my post did I say, "NickiT, your daughter sucks." So get off my back.

And just because you take offense at a generalized set of responses doesn't mean there might not still be some validity to them.

If you find my response unhelpful and rude, I think you need to grow a thicker skin. Having been skating for 14 years, you should know that (a) judging is often inexplicable to those of us not sitting on the judging panel and (b) posting a vent in an online forum is likely to garner a response or two you won't like.

The judges want to see the technical elements, but they want to see them completed with speed and power. I wasn't there and I don't know what you mean by presentation, but I've seen skaters who typically come in last get very frustrated because they land their jumps. What they don't seem to realize is that you have to do the elements with some degree of control and strength.

And I don't think a 2 rev spin would count. I'm pretty sure you have to get 3 revs for it to count. Also, the judges often don't count the first rev, so I've been told, because you are getting into position. They count when the position is achieved.

Just some thoughts. I didn't see it, so I don't know if anything I've seen at events applies or not.

That particular judge is an EXCELLENT and VERY FAIR judge. She has always, in my experienced, marked extremely well and is very encouraging.

To be honest, Nicki, I think that you just need to value opinions of judges such as JB and just wonder about the rest! I have seen some pretty crappy judging. I once passed a test (my first ever) that I actually don't believe that I had any right passing. Although one of the judges is known to be a toughie I also know that she knew my real potential (aka not the wobbly mess that I was out there). IMO she judged me on past performance and not on the day. Yes, I benefitted from this but it didn't make me feel good because I KNEW that I'd skated appallingly.

To those who have been less than polite to Nicki I politely suggest giving her a break! She came on to have a rant, something most of us have done at some point. The replies which may not have been addressed to her by name have certainly been in response to her post, you can hardly say that you weren't talking about her!!! She's been around here for long enough that people know that she's not inexperienced and is certainly quite fair in her assessment of things as a rule.

All the best to you both Nicki, why not collar JB next time you see her and see if she can give you any pointers on what to improve upon?

x

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Thanks for that. You know, this is the sort of feedback I am in need of. I asked my coach if this was the case as I suspect that it is, but she didn't know. She's quite young and not been coaching long so is on a learning curve herself, but it would certainly make sense that a camel with too few revs would get discounted.

Nicki

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Thanks for your support TashaKat. I daresay I've been nothing but polite EVERY time I've posted on these forums and that goes back 6.5 years - I remember exactly when I found this place as it was when I had my leg in plaster and thought I'd never skate again. It's just a shame that my little rant has stirred up such hard feelings towards me. I'm sure there have been many similar rants in the past. We are all entitled to feel a bit down about something once in a while but obviously we're not allowed to share our disappointments here. Sadly I've seen a whole new side to this place that is not good. I thought it was about giving advice and sharing skating experiences good and bad - I never expected to have such blunt comments directed at me just for feeling disappointed about a competition.

I will finish by saying I am very proud of my daughter - she skates better than I ever will in competition and given the fact that she is dyspraxic and had a rough start in life due to her premature birth, she will always be a winner to me!

Nicki

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Nowhere did I accuse you of saying such a thing!

I've posted many a vent in the past and NEVER received unhelpful advice from anyone. Likewise I always do my best to give encouraging and helpful advice when others post about their disappointments.

Nicki

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www.myspace.com/insatiableskater

I don't know if you remember Nicki but from a club comp a few years back when the judges gave us feedback one said she'd rather see a really well done 3 jump than a poor loop jump, and the others said they'd give more credit to the attempted loop, so it is true the judges can be looking at different things. I would also think a 2 rev spin is in danger of not being counted - my understanding was that a spin needed 3 revs to count or 2 revs if it was a spin with change of position.

I have also done better than people with better jumps than me when I have had better speed, flow and cleaner elements than their more difficult but not so confidently executed ones. Certainly JB goes for the clean and confident elements over technical difficulty.

and judging by my results this year I'd have done better to stick to my old programme with more speed and flow than attempt the one I did but it was more of a challenge for me, so despite a lower placement it's still in real terms an improvement.

When she next competes she will be more confident in those more difficult elements and should, hopefully, get better placing.

I can definitely understand Nicki's frustration. The problem, as others have said, is that in any sport where opinion/taste comes into play there will always be disagreements.

At the end of the day, unless there is one competetor who really does outshine the rest by miles - ie looks elegant, good and interesting routine, difficult and well executed elements etc - it will always be down to opinion. As in the example BatikatII gave, some judges prefer attempts at difficult elements, others prefer easier elements executed correctly.

Sometimes IMHO its just a case of who looks the best - may be not produce the best technical skate but somehow gives an air of confidence and there is a 'panache' about the performance.

Sometimes, however it's just unfair.

I'm sure she'll do better off next time

S xxx

Nicki-
You didn't say whether your daughter attempted a jump combo or sequence. I know you are in the UK, but here in the US, if there is no combo or sequence, you get dinged for a lack of well-balanced program. If other things are similar (within a 0.1 of a point on the judge's card), this can make the difference since it's a deduction.

Just pointing out something that may have been overlooked...

Hi, Nicki!

This sounds like something your daughter's COACH should be asking the judges (discreetly after the event, of course.) The coach can THEN explain what the judges have said and plan out a strategy with you and your daughter!

Good luck! I'm sure it can be worked out!

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jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Are you the skater from Vernon Hills where Chris Howarth is manager? If so you will know his wife Bev who was my coach for 12 years and my daughter's from the start of her skating career up until just over a year ago when she moved to Chicago. Anyway she choreographed her programme and it has all the requirements for NISA level 1 competitions including the maximum of a combination jump which is a lutz-loop. Other jumps she has are a loop, flip and salchow and spins include a sit and camel. Then there is the required straight line step sequence so no, nothing has been missed elements-wise and she hasn't gone over the requirements either.

My current coach had intended to speak with the judges but left when they were still in full flow of judging. To be honest she had a full day herself as she took on another coach's skaters to warm-up and put on the ice, so I can see she was eager to leave when she'd done.

At the end of the day it was one competition and I just felt disappointed last night. It's time to move forward and write it down as a disappointing result.

Hey and when you next see Chris or Bev, please say hi for me! I really miss Bev - she was a wonderful coach.

Nicki

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And me please!! They both coached my son many moons ago at Peterborough and then at Bracknell when it first opened.