I highly recommend Survey Monkey (I think it's surveymonkey.com). We've used them in b-school for class project-related surveys. I believe for under 100 responses, it's free, but if it's over that you pay $20. I suspect this survey will get more than 100 responses.

Funny, that's exactly what happened to me the first time my primary coach had me do consecutive forward crossovers. I was going fast enough where he said this bright idea of having me (at that time I was BARELY learning crossovers!!!) do power circles to get used to the speed. Yeap! The click of death got me!!! But he was QUITE amazed at the speed I was going right before I went down! (I thought he was either NUTS or wants to kill me... especially since this was done on a crowded public ice session!!!

The last click of death was on the ends of the rinks. It did in my knees for 3 weeks!!! I'm lucky it wasn't worse!!!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I think an online survey would be a great idea. Take it seriously and be sure to put a notice in 'Skating' magazine! Since the USFS doesn't break down their membership stats, it is hard to really tell how many adults are skating and not testing/competing. I think it is important to learn why adults are not testing/competing. You also might see if the PSA might cooperate with a notice also with a short notice to the coaches re: are your adult skaters testing? Perhaps even a survey done by them with a coaching focus would be valuable!

There have been really great posts in this thread, but we are just the tip of the iceberg....the more numbers we can put together with specific information, the more effective we can be to keep adult skating going forward that meets the needs of adults. AN does not reach all of the adult community (note how it shifts with the location of AN) and those who do not compete are left out of the survey (injury, do not compete at all, can't afford to travel to that particular location, etc.) Just surveying at AN would be a very unbalanced survey. I would hope that the USFS would respond to the results if they want the adult community to stay vibrant and growing.

This is the point we are trying to make........the adult moves DO NOT build on each other, like the standard track. They are all over the board. The gold test is comprised of juv, intermediate and novice moves. You jump to higher level moves faster, and totally skip some (the logic USFSA used at the time was that they had selected the "important" ones). This makes things more difficult.........and even though the judging criteria is supposedly lower, it isn't necessarily so. It depends on the judge, and how they decide to call it. To test an adult move, you had better have it to regular track standards before you even consider stepping out on the ice on a test session...and every coach worth their salt knows this. This is no reflection on you whatsoever, so don't take it that way, but it doesn't help adult skaters at all for coaches to pooh-pooh the adult track as substandard.

I have seen a lot of adults and kids (one example is ISI does not have a moves track, but look at their freestyle tests....very difficult at the higher levels) execute these things very well, and with no moves, so to say that across the board is making a generalization IMO. I also happen to think my flying camel is pretty darned good. Kids are competing 2 doubles in preliminary, so I would guess the preliminary moves test is what is required to start learning doubles? Actually, maybe it's pre-pre, since they start working on doubles at that level these days......but can't put them in until preliminary.

I'm sorry if this offended you. To me, a recreational skater is anyone that is a skater.........but does not test or compete.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I do think we testers/competitors have a different take on this issue, however......and some of us totally disagree too.

I'm new to this forum, I know this is the USFSA thread but I have been reading with interest and looking at what is required at each Adult level for freeskate and MITF. I'm in Canada with no "adult" track so I've been working on my preliminary levels, same as the kids. I think it's something that I can do and I started skating with a coach after being a "rec skater" for all those years before and I am in my mid 40's. I've started to be a test skater and don't compete. From what I can see from the USFSA site, Adult bronze is about what Canada's preliminary freeskate and skills are, actually there's more stuff in Canada's test, like a camel spin. The adult bronze moves sort of line up to the preliminary skills test, waltzing 3's = power 3's and 5 step mohawk is the same as waltzing mohawks, almost, we get an extra step but we have to do it to music and hit the beat, like a dance test. I don't think that the USFSA Adult moves are too hard for that Bronze freeskate level. That you have to take them to do a freeskate test is what I don't agree with. I didn't look at any of the higher levels, I only know preliminary right now.

I don't have to do skills, or dance for that matter at all. If I was a jumping fiend, I could enter in pre-preliminaryStarSkate, and jump my brains out.
I find it very retro that MITF tests are required before the freeskate test is done in the USFSA system. We in Canada complain about skills tests just being a money grab, and that's what it looks like for the USFSA. My view from north of the border.

Most coaches worth their salt wouldn't put a kid's standard track MIF test (or dance test, or FS test) out until it's well above requirements for passing standard. If nothing else, to allow for the "nervous factor" or the "different rink" factor. First of all, it's not fair for the student. Second, it wastes everyone's time. Third, it doesn't enhance the reputation of the coach (which potentially affects future income flow).

Watching a test that maybe, on a good day, was passing standard, is not fun for the judges, either. Contrary to what some parents and skaters think, most judges don't enjoy ripping apart a skater's performance.

And... I can't speak for the Adult Gold MIF test (having not worked on it yet), but for the most part, there are MIF elements from a lower level that build for the next level.

For example...

Forward Power 3's (Bronze) build on skills needed for Pre-Bronze Alternating FO 3's.

FO3-BI3 (Silver) directly builts from Forward Power 3's (think about the push and weight shift onto the BI edge from Forward Power 3's... SAME push and weight shift to set up for the BI3 after the FO3.

The Bronze Alternating forward crossovers and back crossovers are basic skating skills...

The alternating back crossovers to back outside edge helps develop control of the skater's "landing position"... and BTW, if you're a dancer, it's almost exactly the same body alignment/position coming out of the ladie's swing outside closed mohawk in the Silver Tango, and also at the end of the Blues pattern (except for the free leg being in front).

Silver Slide chasse Step Sequence directly grows from the Bronze 5-step mohawk sequence, and builds on the skills required for the 5-step.

My understanding on the spirals is that the Pre-pre spirals were stuck at a higher level solely because a lot of Adult skaters are flexibility-challenged. And... if one is a flexible skater who can do good spirals, that element may be able to serve as an off-set on the test for an element that is weaker, at test time.

Having waxed prolific here for awhile... I have heard of rumors that there may be changes in the elements for Adult MIF. When and what, that I haven't heard.

For me to test adult moves, I'd have to have them consistently well above standard passing criteria, due to the "nervous" factor. I'd probably still muck it up though. I know coaches often put out tests hoping for a good day though. I'd just hate to have a coach of an adult want to put out a test that was barely at adult passing criteria. The aim should be to skate the move at the regular track level regardless of judging criteria. What I'd like to see (in my fantasy world) is moves to be more like dance..............if you really bomb on a move and fail the test, you could just retest that move (kind of like dance where you don't have to pass, or even test, all of the dances at a certain level). I know, I'm dreaming...... It would save a lot of time and money from the skaters side though (ice time, lessons, etc.).

That would be great.....unless they decide the evil novice move isn't difficult enough and toss in a junior or senior one for good measure (or something equally ridiculous at the other levels). Would be just our luck.

I wonder what other countries are doing for moves? It would be interesting to know other test structures.

Chico - "Sure, doubles, flying spins, etc. can be done without them in some fashion, but they aren't done well or in control."

Not that I've seen. There are lots of adults here without the "benefit" of moves with great controlled doubles and flying spins. In fact we have a private ice adult session, and the majority of adults there are landing doubles. Moves are great, but not the only path to great skating.

As far as the survey, I will start to work on it and the on-line availability. I do want to let everyone know that this is not a "USFSA" sponsored/supported survey. Also, I do not know if the moves, or any other topics will be brought up at the May GC meeting or not.
Even if there are changes to adult rules, I still feel it will be valuable to have this information on record. Also, when the survey is repeated with the support of the adult committee, there will be a baseline data set for comparison. Thank you all for your interest, and I will probably be contacting many of you for suggestions and help!

In the UK they dont' have adult track tests but they do have compulsory moves tests before you can compete at the corresponding level. Although the moves test track had been around for a while the compulsoryness (!)was instituted a couple of years ago to combat the perceived fall in standard of 'skating skills' after the demise of figures.

Initially there was both a minimum and a maximum standard for each competitive level. This provoked a huge outcry particularly from adult skaters many of whom enjoyed progressing through the moves tests to a high level even when they had no hope of ever reaching the equivalent level in Free. The maximum moves level would have meant many skaters were barred from competing for having taken moves tests above their Freeskating standard and was quickly abandoned. The minimum level remains in force.

At the moment we have a dance moves tests track and a Field Moves test track for Freeskaters but these are going to be combined soon and are presently taken as equivalents ( which is another nonsense but hey this is skating!) so I can compete at level 1 Free as I have level 1 dance moves test.

Some people reckon adults here are given a little bit extra leeway from judges as the judges know that adults will continue to work on their moves but other people will tell you they are harder on adults, so take your pick. There is certainly no 'official' lower passing standard for adults.

edited to add
As it happens I take a group figures class (for fun(!))and boy is that hard work. Give me Field moves over figures any day of the week as far as having a hope of passing any tests. However I am persevering with figures class as it has greatly improved my control and posture and benefited my skating in general to a greater degree than practising moves ( and I practice both dance and Free moves from the first 3 levels of tests even though I've only taken level 1 tests)

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'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

I'm not 25 yet but it won't be that long and I'd like to fill out a survey too. I've been doing just dance for several years but when I turn 25 I think I'd like to try pairs as an adult and maybe get back into freestyle a bit too. (I had up to double flip, not super consistant, when I was about 14 or 15). But as it stands now, I'd have to start my MITF over at the beginning when I've passed all but ONE lousy move on all the adult tests- and hopefully by the time I'm 25 I'll have passed Novice and have all the moves on the adult tests passed- so that I could take the adult pairs or freestyle tests. Not to mention I'd have to start with Pre-Bronze freestyle when I've passed Pre-Juvenile.

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Shae-Lynn and Victor: We knew you were champions, and on 3/28/03 the whole WORLD found out! Thank you for twelve wonderful years!

I'm done fighting. I haven't seen skaters do skills well without a good framework. I see inconsistency, injuries and.......poorly done skills. This is my opinion. Since the adult move system isn't working, do regular moves which seem to. Just because I work on moves doesn't make me more serious, or more a skater, than those who don't. Just because others want to compete or test, and I don't doesn't make me any less one. What label you wear has everything to do with who you are inside.

Chico

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"I truly believe, when God created skating, he patted himself on the back."

There are even elite skaters that are inconsistent, injured, or have poorly done skills. They didn't get to this level, however, without passing their senior tests (aka "framework"). Enough said!

From reading other posts on this thread, it seems that judging is still quite inconsistent with regard to Adult MIF testing. Michigansk8ter's post interested me, since I have been testing standard track and adult track simultaneously. Perhaps this is because I am somewhat of a masochist, but I also like the moves on the standard track better and think they help my overall skating more (like the power pulls in pre-Juv and the back outside 3s in Juvenile and Intermediate that never show up in the adult track for some reason...see, told you I was a masochist). On the other hand, I want to compete as an adult, and as such, I also have to take the adult moves.

I took the Adult Silver MIF test and juvenile MIF tests within a week or so of each other. Many of the moves are similar for those tests (such as the 8-step mohawk and the cross rolls), but the testing standards are different. I took the silver moves test first, and received the passing standard on most of the moves (I don't remember the number and I don't have the test in front of me, but I scored the passing average on all of the moves except the spirals, which scored one tenth higher than the passing average). Basically, I though I was sunk, since the passing average of the same moves for the juvenile test was higher, and I didn't really have time to work on the skills. But I tested Juvenile, and lo and behold, I passed at the juvenile standard, several tenths higher. I think I had about 4 hours of ice time between the tests.

Now, with regard to the Adult Gold test... somehow, I can't manage to pass this one. Yes, the novice move kills me every time, but on top of that, they keep marking my double 3s as sub-standard. These are the SAME moves that passed on the juvenile MIF test a year ago! They have NOT deteriorated--if anything, they have gotten better. But they still score lower.

I have heard that there is a reluctance for judges to pass adult skaters at the gold level, since that is the last test, sort of akin to the Senior Moves test. Well, if that's the case, then fine. But the fact that I am now scoring LOWER on my double 3s than I did a year ago on my juvenile test really boggles me. It seems so random--do these numbers really mean anything at all on any "objective" scale, or do they simply indicate whether the judge wants to pass you or not (plus or minus a tenth or two)?

My freestyle, by the way, is nowhere near the Gold level, although I do enjoy working on freestyle. (Maybe I am just destined to dance, though)

I think what you're pointing out is the inconsistency of the 6.0 judging system in general, which is why it has to go -- I can't wait for the day when there is a test version of the CoP (or whatever that evolves to!)

Pennybeagle,

Good luck on those Gold moves. Boy, how frustrating that must be for you. I hope you get some judges next time that will appreciate your awesome double 3's. For some reason I find them more difficult than the brackets and back double 3's. What's your secret?

Wouldn't if be nice if on that dreaded Novice move we could just do it in our good direction? Heck, we don't have to spin and jump in both directions.....

Speaking of dance, I think dance is another great way to teach good posture, line, edges, and understanding of music. When I started skating as an adult in my mid-20's everyone did dance. You did figures, dance and freestyle......no questions asked. In the past year, the kids where I skate have started to take up dance again. Cool! For most of us though.........just not time to do it all.

We'll be cheering for you next time you test!!!!

I don't think anyone is arguing that the moves don't have value. We all know they do. (Although I could argue that dance has done more for my overall skating than moves.....) It's the way in which the moves have been organized and shoved down our throats. We were bamboozled to believe they'd be optional.

If in fact the moves were meant to correlate with similar freestyle tests, than adult silver moves should be no higher than pre-juvenile, and adult gold moves no higher than juvenile. (The adult silver fs test does not have any elements higher than the standard pre-juv. fs test, and the adult gold fs test has no elements higher than the standard juvenile fs test.)

Some may get the impression here that the adult moves are different than the standard track, so I want to clarify that they are the same moves, in a different order, with "supposedly" a slightly lower passing average.

That chart that has been developed for judging adult moves should be printed in the rulebook!

I found that my double-3s (well, in MY opinion and my coach's opinion, but not the three judges who failed me's opinion) got a lot better when I started working on my brackets. It's basically the same principle of counter-rotation of the upper body against the lower body, bending the knees, and keeping the weight over the skating side. Heh... easier said than done

Keeping the weight securely in line over the skating side is really key, though. I used to double-lean big time to create the illusion of being balanced, but I was wobbling out of the three turn. Working on dance has really helped me with getting this idea of staying in line with myself, and bending my knees without turning out (which I tend to do if I'm not thinking about it). I practiced a lot of knee-bending and counter-rotation exercises off ice. I also find that I have to start the first turn way earlier than I think I'd like to (I would prefer to wait until the top of the lobe, like the Silver three turns).

I also think that it is harder to control the double 3 turns going the forward direction than backward. For many other adult skaters at my rink, the back double 3s are a bit scary because of the speed factor, but I find them quite secure. I've always had more of a problem feeling secure on a forward edge than a backward edge (hence, the reason axels scare me to death and I won't work on them unless forced to)

Now the novice move, on the other hand...
What kills me about this move is that it bears almost no resemblance (I find) to any of the other 3-turns in any of the MIF tests leading up to it. I have heard people say that it's similar to the Intermediate back 3-turn pattern on the ends, but I see (and feel) no connection. My evil freestyle coach put two of these novice 3-turns (going in my opposite direction) in a serpentine footwork pattern in my freestyle program. I think it's his way of forcing me to work on them (which I suppose works), but now I have fears of falling on my footwork in my program and crashing into the boards...

My evil coach did the same thing to me. My first couple of competitions, I was terrified when I got to this section of the program, but it forced me to do them over and over and over. I finally got comfortable (okay, comfortable is a streatch, but they did get better) with them and a year later I passed my gold moves. So it does work, just be patient, it takes a while.

PattyP

Pennybeagle and PattyP,

I hope my coach is never evil enough to put those turns in my footwork. He says footwork should be on autopilot. I can only imagine how long it would take me to get those evil things on auto. I hope the judges appreciate both of your footwork sequences!! I know I'm in awe.

Hmmmmm, I wonder if I can translate my brackets into better double 3's since my brackets are way better than my 3's (kind of working it the other direction)? I'm with you on the backward double 3's. My feet would rather do backward things. Gee, maybe that's why I like backspins better too. Anyhow, I'll try to remember your hints when I get back on the ice.

Here's a chart for those interested:

http://www.gerfsc.com/rules.htm#MoveTest

The adult freestyle tests are essentially:

Pre-Bronze = Pre-Preliminary
Bronze = Preliminary
Silver = Pre-Juvenile
Gold = Juvenile

In addition, here's some USFSA information that answers many questions, including the reason for moves:

http://www.usfsa.org/content/MIFMemoAddendum.pdf

Enjoy!

I always thought that Silver was more equivalent, as far as skill level goes, to Juvenile, because it has 2 Juv moves, and 2 pre-Juv moves and one Intermediate move, which sort of averages one of the pre-Juv moves. I actually don't understand why the pre-Juv 3 turns are separate moves--to me they are all the same, but that's not really the point. Well, one thing is for sure--the adult moves are random!!

I just started working on the Novice inside 3-turns which are also on the Gold test. It's funny because, even though I am a CCW skater, the clockwise direction is so much smoother and easier for me! That first back 3-turn is a little bit scarier, but the 3-turns themselves are so much better. Going CCW I find I have more toe-scratching. My coach said it was the same way for her. Maybe because you work harder and pay more attention to the side that you are less familiar with. Unlike pennybeagle, I find that these 3-turns are very similar to previous 3-turns, especially the back inside double 3's (admittedly these are on the same adult test, but in standard track they are on a previous test), as well as the 3-turns in the field from pre-Juv. I remember when I was working on these my coach used to always give me a hard time for leaving my free leg behind me when turning the back inside 3. Now I know why!

I have passed the Intermediate move, and the 3-turn pattern on that move is definitely a prep for the Novice move. I feel much more secure already on the Novice move than I did when I took the Gold test, and I haven't even been practicing them a whole lot.

That's why I think that the USFSA needs to rework the adult MIF requirements - it's crazy to expect us to do the novice back-3's without the building block of the Intermediate back-3's.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

You'll have to show me these when I get back on the ice. I need all of the help I can get on that novice end pattern from you know where!!!!!

I have some experience web-designing and with programming languages. If you want I can write/implement a survey script and upload it onto my personal site so you wouldn't have to pay a dime.

Although I'm not 25, I didn't start skating until I was about 14. It is highly unlikely I will ever be able to compete using the standard track becasue of age restrictions, and the issue of grandfathering bothers me greatly.

I'm working on gold MITF and went to a critique session yesterday. First there was an off-ice session during which the judges explained what they're looking for one each move, and then we got on the ice and the judges looked at a few moves from each skater.

Not one judge made a comment about adult standards vs. regular track... I intentionally didn't bring it up because I wanted to see if they did. They seemed to be looking at my gold moves with the same perspective that they would judge standard-track intermediate and novice.