Pandora, I understand your sentiment. For the longest time, the anxiety over competing and the poor results conspired against me, and I contemplated quitting because it was no longer fun. But I didn't, and I can't exactly say why, except that the rewards to me to keep on working on my skills were worth it. And the friends I have made in the sport. And being able to say that I have competed nationally in the sport I love. And being able to do the things I am able to do at the age of 40, when I could be sitting at home or - God forbid - bored out of my mind in a step aerobics class.

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Champagne in 2005, 2008, 2009 - who's next out of the pre-bronze club...?

Wang chung!

Very good points and all I am in complete agreement with. I started to improve in the standings with the same elements as before when I started actively and consistently working on the Novice MITF. This test develops anaerobic strength, bi-lateral quickness and evenness and control as the patterns are a lot harder than the previous tests (ask my Silver level training partner who passed Intermediate not too long ago and is just in awe of doing these at all.)

A saying we have in manufacturing is: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is madness. Just skating programs without working on the basics and expecting to beat your competitors is an example of this.

I hate MITF. They frustrate me totally, but I want to skate. I want to be a better skater than I was and not muddle around doing the same thing as before. To this end, I work on MITF for 10-15 minutes minimum per session (if I am preparing to test them, it may be a whole hour). This leads to better looking programs and nicer elements. I get more satisfaction from the improvement than I have hatred of MIF.

FWIW the attached is a program that I could watch all day and yet it has limited FS elements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4oB2_GR7Fs

Back to the different color horse....

So to sum it up. Generally, ice skaters to believe in limiting jumps (especially in the Adult Competitive Tract) in order to make competition "fair" for the competitors. To a lesser extent, they also apply this to spins. (eg. no flying spins until Gold), but will allow any MITF at any level. So....If an adult is flexible enough to do Beilmann spirals (and, yes, I know there are probably a few out there who have them), then they could get points for them since there is no restriction on spirals or on MITF. Same goes for high level step sequences if, indeed, an adult could do them. (Jp1andonly suggsted it had been achieved in Canada.) But it does not work this way with jumps. Must stay within the test level limitation (to be "fair") until masters level.

Ok...if this is what you want.... Just pointing out the discrepancy.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH. I whole-heartedly agree. Even in my hobbies, I like to add additional skill sets so I can grow and never be bored.

I know you wrote this innocently, but I don't think it's right to call any adult who skates "stupid". Or suggest that to be taken seriously, you need to pass your tests the first time you try. I get very nervous when I test, and it took me 3 tries to pass Bronze MIF and 4 tries to pass Silver MIF, yet I still take pride in passing them. I guess your experience has been different than mine; I have received much support from skating parents and other adult skaters when I've passed my tests (and also when I didn't). Sure, there are beyotchy people (both parents and skaters) but thankfully, they are few, and I don't worry about what they think of me.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

To reiterate, Adult comps are under the 6.0 system until Gold.

AND flying spins are allowed in Silver.

They have to have levels, period.

This discussion about jumps vs MITF has been going on so long that you are starting to look like a troll on these forums. I am beginning to wonder if you actually believe what you say or if you are just looking to pick a fight.

Checked out link. Um.....Not my cup of tea, but not commenting any further. Not brave enough.

Am I allowed to disagree with you? Or does that make me a troll?

Also, I am not beating the same horse. I just mentioned that since you limit jumps per test level, I believe that this should also be applied to spins and MITF. Competetly different topic.

That was literally how I was perceived when I started with my club 10 yrs ago. I was already 26 yrs old, and I got a lot of rude treatment from other parents in the club who basically ridiculed me behind my back and wondered out loud whether adults should even be skating.

I am an adult skater, just like you! And I didn't like being treated that way either. It really pushed me to do my best to show that we adults really are worthy of respect in this sport. Thank God by the time I left that club (had to move due to job change), I had many friends and wonderful people I now call as friends. My day to day work on the ice showed them that adult skaters work every bit as hard as their kids do.

Discussions/different opinions are welcome. Constantly beating a dead horse is not.

Also, it would help your argument if you actually knew the elements on the MITF tests. I would highly recommend that you actually purchase a USFSA rulebook so you can understand what is actually on the MITF tests. Not knowing the fact that a spread eagle is nowhere in the MITF test structure does not lend any credibility to your arguments.

Ok. But that does not negate my point that all level MITF are allowd at any level of competition. (Also, to a point, this applies to spins, though at low levels they are regulated.) You are pointing out a flaw in a few trees and ignoring the forest. You understand my point, so address my agrument.

I think Pandora is getting confused about what MIF are and the elements within them. I think she means that since jumps are limited in competitions, why aren't spins or footwork. I don't know the US system, but brackets, counters and rockers are quite high up within our test structure - I think brackets come first and they're around the same level MIF as double jumps would be in elements.

If that's what she's saying, then I agree to an extent. Fair enough if a skater *can* do more difficult footwork or spins, but should they be allowed to do steps and spins several levels above the permitted jumps?

Yes, thank you BlueSkate. That is exactly what I am saying.

The question is more - what's the quality of that difficult turn? You might see some difficult turns in Bronze (like brackets or rockers) but how good are they? Are the fast and flowing like you might see out of the winner of the Masters ladies event or are they from a stand still and kind of flat or out of control? I know many Bronze and Silver skater who are trying more difficult turns in their programs to get comfortable with them. These turns are no where near as smooth as their three turns and mohawks. Same for more difficult spins - I know a Silver who has a great flying camel but only when it comes to visit, it's not consistent.

That won't solve anything. Tell someone like me (working on junior MIF, pre-gold dances and in silver freestyle b/c I suck at spinning and don't have an axel) that I can't do rockers, counters, loops and twizzles in my footwork? Fine, I'll do 3-turns and mohawks, but I'll still do them with more speed and edge quality than someone who only has their silver moves test.

So then what's next? Someone like you is going to come along and say "gee now it's not fair that people can skate fast, so at certain levels what do you all think about limiting the amount of speed people can skate at? ?" And we'll be beating another dead horse.


Pandora, maybe if you spent the amount of time whining about what a lousy skater you are on actually WORKING ON YOUR MOVES, you would improve. Or if you don't like the fact that figure skating takes work, stick with roller skating. You seem to think roller skating has it all figured out and it's perfect. But then why in the US is artistic roller skating basically a dead sport? Where I live we have hundreds of figure skaters who compete in local, regional and national competition. Yet there are only a handfull of roller rinks, 1 artisitc roller skating club with like 5 competitive roller skaters. You basically just have to show up to be able to skate at nationals because there are so few people.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Hey! We can use a radar gun and there can be a standard deviation of skating speed at each level!

Well....the quality argument can also be applied to jumps. As a poster so kindly pointed out, my 2flip may be "no so very good" but, were I to compete at a level under master's, I could not even include this (badly done) double since it is prohibited. Yes, the turns may lack quality, but they are allowed. That is the difference.

Actually roller skating takes a little work, too. Try falling out of doubles and triple attempts on a slab of concrete or wood for, oh say, an hour or two at at time. We also do combos that last from 5-7 jumps. Ice skaters do, what? Three? So maybe...just maybe...both types of skating take some work.

Actually a lot of the problem with roller is that there is no one with money supporting it. Lots of money in ice. (Ritter was from upstate NY.) Also, Americans like to catagorize. Roller is for "derby queens" (get me a beer). Ice is for those "fancy skaters." Same with soccer. Americans are proud to have their football. Soccer is for those "other countries." Recently, soccer is starting to get more popular in the US,but it took a long time and a lot of work. Still nowhere near the popularity of American Football.

I have to agree with Techskater above.

You see plenty of triple axels on the world competitive scene, but very few step sequences getting called a level 4. Allowing a skater to progress in the MITF higher than their FS level has actually helped the overall look of skaters' programs. Figure skating started with figures. Classic skaters who have gone through figures test structure had amazing mastery on ice, and many of them did not need to do a jump in order for people to take notice.

Exactly.

The footwork difficulty doesn't mean sh!t without the jump and spin elements to be competitive at a level, as Debbie S mentioned earlier in this thread. If you don't have at least a Lutz-loop in Silver with good flow between the jumps and in and out of the combo, even if you do what would be a L3 footwork sequence, you aren't going to be in the top group of Silvers at class 2 or 3. Once you have the competitive quality of jump and spin elements at a level, then the skating skills and transitions come into play. Also, I mentioned the TES-PCS phenomenon at Adult Nationals for Gold Ladies (SS and related PCS marks were higher for skaters getting clean Axel calls with GOE of 0 or higher).

A double flip IS permitted in Masters Junior/Senior. I agree, you do need a USFS rulebook.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

You seem to think that jumps are limited to only what is on the test- that's not true at all. For example, I'm working on my Bronze test- I need 3 single jumps and a waltz-toe combination. But you can do any single jump in competition. MOST Bronze skaters entering the level won't have flip/lutz yet, but they'll have to compete against people with them, and they'll have to compete against much harder combinations than waltz-toe.

And there is a difference between a bracket in a program, and the "brackets in the field" move. I can do a bracket just fine. But to do all 8, on pattern. No way. An isolated element is NOT a move in the field. My one bracket shows no mastery.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

When I wrote this I ment in the levels under the level of Masters Junior/Senior. That is to say in Pre Bronze, Bronze, Silver, or Gold. It was easier to write it that way.

Exactly, that is my point. You can disguise your routine to compensate. Yes, a quick judge may notice the bracket is only on the right side while the 3 turn is on both sides but.....I mean, really......If the rest of the sequence is good. Come on, now.

Pandora, if you would take the time to learn about the USFSA test/comp structure, then you would be able to argue your points more effectively. Not knowing the facts does not help your arguments. The books are not expensive, USFSA comes out with new editions every year, and every adult competitor I know owns one.