Not trying to detract from thread at all, but does Wilmington get alot of adult skaters participating? I could probably make that, it's about 6 hours by car.

While I've never attended Skate Wilmington myself, from what I've heard it's one of the more standard track adult friendly competitions.

Hannah, maybe you could come to Halloween Classic?

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

My issue with this is not that the rule changed (well, I do have issues with that, but that's not what I was discussing), but that it was put into the new rules without any warning or proper notification. It wasn't in the list of changes that passed at Governing Council, and the Adult Skating Committee chair himself said that a decision had been made not to change anything about Pre-Bronze because it is not a comp level at AN.

So now, 2 months later, I'm competing in 5 days and I see something posted in an obscure section of the USFSA website (in other words, not in the News section or on the home page in the Member Services box like other clarifications to program requirements have been linked) that says there was a change to the Pre-Bronze WBP, which directly affects my program that I have been running through at every practice. If this rule change is indeed correct and not a typo (which crossed my mind), that means I need to suddenly start practicing a program with a different beginning with 2 days of practice left before the comp. It's highly irritating. Entering FS at this comp cost $80 (for the first event - I'm doing CM as a second event), plus gas and other expenses - I think it is not unreasonable to expect that the rules will be clearly communicated to competitors, and judges, in advance.

And if this does turn out to be a typo and that's really not the rule, then if I take out a spin and my competitors have 3 spins and are allowed to get credit for them, I've just sc**ed myself by trying to follow the rules!

I've e-mailed the contact person on the website and got a response saying they are checking with the head referee. Hopefully, I'll know the situation before my lesson tomorrow night.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Usually it does, but not this year. The only adult FS event is Pre-Bronze, with 3 competitors (including yours truly). There is Pre-Bronze/Bronze CM (with yours truly and 2 others) and a Bronze spin event. There is also Adult Artistic - I think there are 3 or 4 in that event.

I guess everyone's working on moves or other tests or just on vacation. Last year, there were 7 Pre-Bronze entrants.

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Man! I should do this next year! I haven't been to that rink, although some of the other adults at my rink head up there occasionally for summer skating. I will have to keep it in mind for next year (and it will give me a reason to skate more over the summer!)

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I am a Canadian Skater who has competed many times in Canada, the US and Europe. I have two versions of every program. I skate Bronze (Jr Bronze in Canada), so I have an International "short" version (1:40) and a Canadian '"extended" version (2:30+/-10) of both my Freeskate and my Interpretive.

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If you keep your eyes on God, you can walk on water.

I just want to point out that the WBP rules are for competition programs, NOT tests.

I asked Tony for some clarification, and I will let you know what I find out.

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August 22, back on the ice!

The comment above was STRICTLY for hypothetical purposes. Yes, it only impacts competitions programs, NOT test!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

OK, I just heard back from the chair, who forwarded me the response from the referee (who also refs HC, incidentally). Apparently, the 2-spin limit in Pre-Bronze only applies if IJS is used. For Wilmington, which is using 6.0, the spin limit is 3. Phew!

Of course, one has to wonder why the page didn't clarify that so as not to create unnecessary confusion. And just when are Pre-Bronze skaters going to be judged under the new system? As of now, there are no Pre-Bronze comps at AN, Mountain Cup, or O'dorf. I can understand the principle of putting something in the rules, just in case, but I think everything could have been stated more clearly.

OK, off to practice (well, in a little bit) my backspin. Looks like I'm going to need it after all!

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Thanks Debbie for sniffing around for this info. But now I wonder, are the WBP requirements only used when IJS is used for ALL levels? I have heard that the qualifying events (Championship) at Adult sectionals will use 6.0, while the finals at Adult Nationals will use IJS.

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Whatever!

I've heard that too. I assumed the WBP requirements were changed to reflect the use of the system at AN - leaving out Pre-Bronze makes sense then, since it's not at AN - and that the rules were in effect all the time b/c why would you want to have different program requirements or limitations depending on the event (after all, we only have 1 program). But now I wonder. Has anyone seen a new rulebook yet?

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

New rulebooks will be sent out in September*.. although judges get them a bit earlier.. but I've never seen a judge with a new one BEFORE mid-August.

*Yes, I KNOW the rules start applying September 1st... but that seems to be the printing and mailing schedule.

If you follow the links from the main usfs web page, it says that the wbp requirements are for the IJS, but it is definitely confusing that the top of the page with the table of requirements doesn't say that. I hope that information will be added to avoid future confusion.

I think for a while it will be especially important to read competition announcements carefully and check rulebook references, and even ask for clarification from the referee. Hopefully things will progress and become less unclear in the future.

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August 22, back on the ice!

This is exactly what I posted about in another thread. For WBP requirements we ONLY have to worry about the comps using IJS. That means if you are Gold or Masters at Nats and all levels at Obertsdorf. That's it. Right now the local and lower level comps are not using IJS.

Side note: I understand Lake Placid is implementing a computer system for IJS so if AN moves there in 2008 we just might see it for everyone at AN.

lwalsh

OK, so does that mean that if a comp is not using IJS (Halloween Classic, for example), then these rules do not apply? So, for example, if I compete Bronze at HC, I can do 3 spins in my program, or 5 jump elements, etc? So would last year's WBP rules apply, or some other rule? But then at AN, the new rules are in effect (even though Bronze and Silver will be judged by 6.0)?

I must ask, what was the point of implementing new WBP for Bronze and Silver anyway (since all judging will be based on 6.0)? And from what I have gathered (someone correct me if I'm wrong), O'dorf does not have these jump and spin restrictions. My understanding is these are USFSA rules, not ISU - whereas the standard track comps using IJS (including club comps), follow the rules of the ISU.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Indeed.
Check out the first bullet point here:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=46
"The IJS will only be used at the U.S. Adult Championships for gold events and higher (not including interpretive events). The IJS will not be used at the adult sectional championships for any events at all."

Also, my understanding was that GC changed the WBP rules now, so that adults could get used to them for when IJS will be used for all events.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

wish they could use it for silver and bronze events too makes everything fair and so we can see where we need to improve upon, its just hard just looking at the ordinals and trying to chase a judge to ask for feedback

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Tim David's Website

I was told by Carol Moir (Scott Moir's mother) that I could register for US competitions through my section (WOS) and that I wouldn't have to change my program times. But of course that was a few years ago and now, who knows?

Brigitte

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"It's not age that determines but the heart." "Skating is not just a sport for the young but it's a passion for the soul of the young at heart." Brigitte Laskowski

I am a nomadic adult skater who is a member of Windsor FSC (Skate Windsor) WOS SC again since Sept. 1st, 2008.

http://eastcastlemusic.tripod.com

Singerskates Sports Music Editing

To be honest, I'd ask someone in the U.S. about registering for USFSA competitions rather than trust the word of a parent of a Canadian skater.

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Where are those knives when I need them?
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I need a detachable left foot!

Back when all this was approved by the GC, I e-mailed Antonio Conte, and this was his response to my questions (His answers are in blue, my questions are in black), and he specifically answers the question about 1/2 rotation jumps and connecting-type jumps:

Thanks for your questions. This is a new areas so it is understandable.
I should explain a couple of things first. Also, see my answers in Bold blue below. Hope this helps out.

All jumps that are less than 1 full revolution do NOT count as jump elements and are considered connecting steps or transitions.


A jump can be repeated only ONCE > so once you do the jump twice, whether it is twice in combination or once in a combination/sequence and then once as a solo jump > that jump cannot be used again. If you use it again, you will not receive any points in the IJS > in the 6.0 system, you will receive a 0.2 deduction for a repeated element.

See answers below:
-----Original Message-----
From: Frumpy
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:19 PM
To: sedated@bellsouth.net; newskates@aol.com
Subject: Question regarding combination jumps in Silver programs

Dear Mr. Conte and Ms. Hughes,

I am skating Adult Silver this year, and my coach and I are trying to
accomodate my freeskate program to the "well balanced program" guidance
recently approved at the governing council.


I understand that my program can have 3 combination jumps or sequences. One combination can have 3 jumps, the other two jump combos can only have 2 jumps. Jumps can be repeated only once, and only in combination.


My first jumping pass in my program is a lutz-loop-loop. I would love to
keep my Lutz-loop-loop in my program since I don't have an axel yet. My coach and I are trying to be inventive to keep the difficulty of my jumping passes up, while still following the new rule.

Remember this is about accruing points and also making your jumps of very high quality. Nice height, strong landing, variation on take-off, etc…..
My first jumping pass is a lutz-loop-loop. Does
that mean that I have "used up" all of my loop jumps, or can I do a
flip-loop as my second combination jump?

You have used up your loop jumps, now move on to some other jump as the second jump in a combo/sequence.


As I understand it, half rotation jumps (ie. half loops) don't count as a
jump, but as a connecting move. Does that include a waltz jump, since it is
only 1/2 rotation? If I did a waltz-half loop-salchow, is that considered 1
jump since the waltz & half loop are only 1/2 revolution? Yes, this one jump (as opposed to it being considered a sequence). It is a single jump. If I did a waltz-toe loop-toe loop, is that 3 jumps, or 2? Two

If I did a flip-half loop-salchow, does that count only as 2 jump sequence -- or is that 3 jumps in sequence and not allowedif I have the lutz-loop-loop? 2 jump sequence


Is a lutz-loop-half loop-salchow considered 3 jumps sequence, or is that sequence 4 jumps -- and not allowed? 3 jump sequence
---------------------

I hope that helps answer some of the questions posted earlier.

Except that Silver (and levels below) won't be judged using this system. The 6.0 system is not based on an accumulation of points (yes, I realize that any judging system will favor jumps with good height and flow on landing). This is where I get annoyed, Having different judging systems for different levels just leads to confusion and contradictions, IMO.

So I guess this means that waltz jumps won't count, even in Bronze (I'm assuming, based on the page that this thread links to, that half rev jumps will be counted in Pre-Bronze)? I've seen plenty of Bronze skaters do waltz-loop, waltz-toe-loop, and waltz-half loop-sal combos - hey, they're not allowed to do an axel. So now, I guess it would be pointless to have a waltz jump in a Bronze program (not that I was planning one), b/c you'd get no credit (even though IJS is not being used to judge Bronze anywhere in the U.S, at least this season).

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

That's pretty much what I got out of Mr. Conte's answer. On the plus side, you can use a waltz-jump as a connecting move, and it won't count against the total number of jumps, while still adding interest to the program and connections to the jumping passess and footwork, etc.

I don't know what it means for the pre-Bronze skaters, though.

What Tony should have also mentioned is that it's not just 1/2 revolution jumps that are considered connecting steps rather than jumps. It's ALL "unlisted" jumps. So if you don't see a jump listed in the table of point values (or if it has 0 value), then it is an unlisted jump and you can use it as a connecting move (except a toe walley, which is counted as a toeloop).

For example, the walley is a full revolution jump if there ever was one, and the "half axel" is also a full revolution jump (it takes off forward, does one full revolution and lands forward on the toepick). Although you won't get any points on your technical score for any of these unlisted jumps and they won't count against your jump total, they will add to your "Transitions" and probably "Choreography" scores on your second mark. You can also use them as part of your footwork and they will be reflected in your footwork points.

Any listed jump landed on the opposite foot (for example, the "one foot axel", which takes off from a LFO edge and lands backward on a LBI edge after 1-1/2 revolutions) still counts as a listed jump and gets full credit as long as it is fully rotated. So if you want to do a combination and have no more loops or toeloops to use, you could do a flip landed on the left foot and take off immediately into a salchow from your LBI landing edge and it should count as a flip-salchow combination (0.5 + 0.4 = 0.9 points). I haven't tested this in real life, but this is the rule according to the ISU publications.

EXCEPTIONS:

1. HALF LOOP - Although a "half loop" is technically a full revolution jump landed backward on the opposite foot, they have decided to specifically include this in the "half jump" or unlisted jump category so it won't count as a jump. (Any other full revolution listed jump that is landed backward on the "wrong" foot is still counted in full.)

2. TOE WALLEY - This is counted the same as a toeloop, even though it isn't listed. Any toe walley you do will be worth 0.4, called as a toeloop and counted against your toeloop limit.

I announced a large comp in May, and when we had Canadian skaters we would tell the referee so he wouldn't ding them with a time violation.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

The answer is to read the individual announcement for that competition. Each and every announcement that gets a sanction in the US has to list which events are offered and their time limits. And, the referee for the event, will blow his/her whistle if you go too long, and any elements after that will not count.

Rob

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2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
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