My Canadian two cents:

To quote Shakespeare 'What's in a name?'

I have been to MC twice, Oberstdorf twice, several different competitions in the US, and Tallinn once. I have, in the past referred to Oberstdorf as ISU International, Adult International, Adult Worlds.... and a few other similar titles. I am in no way deluded into thinking I am a world champion, however I do refer to myself as an Adult International Competitor.

The qualifier of having attended Canadian Adult Nationals in order to be allowed to compete in Oberstdorf would have precluded myself and at least one other Canadian that was in Oberstdorf from being there this year. We each had our valid reasons for not being at CAN, and we are both thankful that CAN is not a qualifier for Oberstdorf.

Let's not quibble over a name and just enjoy the events for what they are, a reason for adults to get together and do what we like to do best, skating and socializing.

__________________
If you keep your eyes on God, you can walk on water.

Ray,

Thanks for responding. So, if there were an 'official Adult World,' what do you think a good qualifier would be? Or, do you think it should just be an "open" event. I hear you about not attending CAN, but wanting to go to Europe.

Or, is it your opinion, not to have a separate Adult Worlds, stop quibbling over names, think of Oberstdorf as the Adult Worlds, or not (whatever you wish) and place the emphasis on socializing? I'm just a little unclear about some of your responses, but interested in hearing what you think.

Thanks,
lovepairs

You know, the whole tone of this thread (and the one that spawned it) is getting a little weird. It's apparent that some adult skaters want to have something - no matter what the format -- called Worlds. And some adult skaters want to see that name reserved for something with a very specific meaning. It is being insinuated that those of us who fall into the latter category are uptight, elitist, uber-competitive, and <insert original insulting prissy phrase here>.

A friendly reminder: The fact that we hold a different opinion from one another does not make us wrong or you right. It simply means we disagree.

It works both ways. See post #42 where someone in the former camp was pretty much accused of one in your camp of being delusional and needing to inflate their ego by calling it "Worlds."

So everyone does need to be a bit more tolerant and agree to disagree without name calling on both sides.

I agree with this. I've competed with a few adults, just a few, who took the whole thing so seriously and got so intense about it. I mean, I get really nervous, but I'm not crying over results or talking about judges conspiracies. It's just adult skating......

I understand that there are arguments both for and against calling Oberstdorf the "Adult Worlds." I'm also fully interested in reading cogent arguments both for and against either side of the debate. However, when it starts to become negative in tone and the tension rises, it starts to feel like we're beating a dead horse.

Exhibit A



Alas, poor Secretariat. I knew him well!!

Can't we all just get along??

Frank

I HAVE heard people refer to themselves as "National Champions". To which I think: .

Maybe it is done tongue-in-cheek but somehow I miss that implication.

Anyway, this is a good discussion. Carry on.

__________________
Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

I see a little life still left in the horse and I think this is a very valid discussion, too.
Yes, people winning their event at Adult Nationals have been known to call themselves Adult National Champions (and hopefully, they remember to specify their particular level and age class when they do so). And based on the structure of the USFS adult program, there's no good reason why they shouldn't make that claim. AN is well-attended by skaters from all three regions, age and competition levels are based on a common national standard, and even for the non-qualifying events there is a qualifying round at AN that peforms the equivalent function.

Oh, I think it's a valid discussion as well. However, in reference to skaternum's post regarding the weird turn this discussion is taking, I just don't want to see this thread slide down that very slippery slope and end up locked because somebody felt offended and hence my previous post. Well that and I've been dying to use that little jewel of an animated smiley for a while now. (I love that thing. LOL ) That having been said, I guess Saffy's got some life in her yet.

Love the horse, you were right the first time!

__________________
Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Oberstdorf is a first class International Competition, attended by enthusiastic Adult skaters from all over the world. Call it what you will, it was the experience of a lifetime, and I plan on attending for many years to come. Shall we see you there in the next year or two, wherever it ends up being hosted?.............

__________________
If you keep your eyes on God, you can walk on water.

I know people with very inclusive attitudes about adult skating (ie: allowing pre-bronze in, lowering the age group, etc) who still freak out and cry over results and call foul on judges marks, or claim they lost because the judges didn't like their dress color. One really has nothing to do with the other. A lot of people take any competition too seriously regardless of the organization of the competition

And I know lots of people who call themselves National Champion, which I think is fine. It is our national championship after all.

What I can't stand are the "embellishments" that some skaters use when describing their own talents. But that's another discussion.

I think this thread is reall interesting...besides, if we were not having it we would never have been able to see Frank's poor horse!!!!
In all seriousness, this is a very substanitive thread and if you look closely, there is enough material to start a few other equally interesting threads!
If anyone is uncomfortable, tired of it or think its irrelevant....well you tuned in. I have not seen anyone mean any harm. This is idea's. Enjoy.

I do agree that some people take the titles too seriously. In the British Adult Championships (which is what they are called, so theoretically it would be correct to call yourself A British Champion - not THE British Champion), there is added confusion that the age categories in dance and free are not the same so the champion at age category II in dance is actually champion of the over 50's, not of 35-50 as category II in free would be. The category II dancers didn't want that to be general knowledge!!!!

However if a 'lesser' skater had the temerity to call themselves 'World Champion' and then in a competition you beat them - wouldn't that be good to be able to say you beat the World Champion ?

But the people who are worrying about the possibility of lesser skaters being 'World Champions' when it's an open comp. would be taking it equally as seriously as those who would call themselves that so the answer is to not get worked up about it either way. When they call themselves world champ but the adult skating community knows what is involved then surely it doesn't matter.

I dont' believe there can ever be an adult 'Worlds' on the elite skating model and it would be pointless since there is already such a Worlds (most of the skaters competing at real worlds being adult with a few young teenage exceptions) and some countries struggle to get any skaters to that, so holding out for an elitist Adult worlds means never having a competition to call adult worlds. Maybe there shouldn't be one but I can't see who it is really hurting to call a competition Adult Worlds.

From 'the third best freeskater in Britain at level 2 and under (35-50 years old)' who could afford to have a weekend in Sheffield last year for the British Adult Championships and thoroughly enjoyed the competition and would have gone to an international if they weren't all at exam/local opens/college exhibition etc time but was thrilled to see a Brit won at Oberstdorf!!! (in fact she was the lady who won Gold at Sheffield in my comp).

Or embellishing their skating test level (as if "working on" a particular test is akin to having passed it already ). But yes, that's another story.

This has been an interesting discussion to read. I agree with Frank that we need to discuss this issue rationally and calmly. I haven't posted yet because having never been to O'dorf or any other int'l (or nat'l) comp, it's hard for me to say what the atmosphere is like and what they should be called, etc. I think it's been pointed out that while AN is called a "National" competition, in reality, like O'dorf and MC, it's open to anyone who wants/is able/has money to go (and with only 10 Bronze II competitors at AN this year, for example, I don't think you can say that the winner is unequivocally the best Bronze II skater in the country). And I know of at least one gold medal winner at AN who refers to herself as an "Adult National Champion". And that didn't bother me, nor does casually referring to O'dorf as "Adult Worlds" - hey, it's easier to say than "Adult International Competition".

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

The difference between US AN and the ISU competiton is that AN actually has championship events that are entered by people who qualified through their section. There are honest-to-god, defined-in-the-rulebook championship titles there. The same cannot be said about the ISU competition.

Yes, most of the events are open. No, they are not championships. No one who knows anything about skating believes that, for example, NoVa Sk8r is an Adult National champion. USFSA clearly defines who is an Adult National Champion and who is not. NoVa is the best guy in his age group and skill level who paid his entry fee that year. Anyone who wins an open event and claims to be an Adult Champion is simply incorrect. This doesn't detract from the fact that there are championship events at AN.

Why not model an Adult Worlds like that? A handful of real championship events, whose entrants are selected in some method by the governing bodies, and then an Open going on concurrently? (And thus poor NoVa still couldn't claim to be an Adult World Champion, since Silver Men II still wouldn't be a championship event. )

What horse?

I wish you people would stop talking about the Horse. Now I've got that bloody theme song stuck in my head again.
45 minutes of traffic home with the Mr. Ed tune in my brain. (I like that smiley and I don't use it a lot, either.)

Just play nicely, be polite and respectful, please. Discussion is a two-way street -- we have two ears because listening is twice as important as talking.

__________________

That's like people who say they got, say, the bronze medal in an event and fail to disclose that there were only three people in the event! Technically it's correct but it's misleading.

(But I've done it on occasion, but mostly to my parents. Who likes to tell Mom they came in last, when bronze sounds so much better? )

I can see the signature lines now.
Mine's going to be: 9 time US Adult National Championships Medalist for age groups II, III :adult, master: freeskate, Pairs, Interp - (with and w/o final rounds), who could afford to go, figured out the application, got practice ice and showed up and skated. And 5 time International competition medalist for more of the same.

__________________
Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Post # 56, this thread...

__________________
If you keep your eyes on God, you can walk on water.

On the other hand - when I won my first gold medal, I was the only person in the category, and was surprised to be presented with anything at all - the official said to me "You are still a winner - you showed up and 99% of life is about showing up" Same with your bronze - look at how many skaters didn't show up. You were there - the medal is yours.

__________________
If you keep your eyes on God, you can walk on water.

Hilarious!

I like that!

__________________
Whatever!

Oh, okay, got it.