What signs are there that a skater is ready to start to learn their waltz jump. What would you consider requirements to have down before learning the jump?

My dd has her bunny hop down really really well. Its quite nice. I had a coach at a different rink ask me if anyone has worked on it with her yet and i said no. He was like, umm someone really should be teaching her now.

I was just curious. This coach who said this at a rink other than where my daughter skates is a very high up coach. He has a few skaters who make it to nationals every year at various levels. I would seem to think he knows what he is talking about lol. But he onlys sees my daughter skate a little every few weeks or so.

So, I am not bashing my current coach, just really curious at what point she will actually start to learn this.

The Waltz Jump is in LTS curriculum at ISI Freestyle 1 and USFSA Basic Skills Basic 8 and Freeskate 1. That means the lower levels (Alpha-Delta / Basic 1-8) would be completed before the waltz jump would be taught.

The skills required are: strong forward outside edges, strong backward outside edges, and the beloved bunny hop. Some coaches teach beginning one-foot spins before waltz jumps because of the strength and posture the spins build.

It's also vital that the skater understand how to check rotation with body position. That comes from the edges, from lower-level jumps (like the side toe hop) and from the bunny hop.

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I wouldn't teach a waltz jump until a skater could hold a backward edge for at least 5 seconds and show a rudimentary grasp of a FI 3-turn.

I taught myself right after I started learning 3 turns. It was awful, looking back, but I did get the rotation.

littlekateskate, don't worry. Kate will learn everything in time - she is only 3 (or 4 now?) for goodness' sake, if she doesn't even learn it for another 6 months, that won't be a tragedy. Also, a bunny hop is not indicative of how good a waltz jump will be, as a waltz jump is more of an edge jump.

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What she said. Backward edge for 5 seconds.

Back outside edges, inside 3, jumped outside 3, more back edges/landingposition, bunny hop, jump with coach holding hands (facing circle), repeat, polish, knee bend, speed, arms in front, check, jump out of the circle, shoulders, wanna do a toe loop?.... oh I could go on.

A waltz jump is a different thing from bunny hops, they don't really progress from one to the other although bunny hops are good to learn the knee up.

I'm pretty sure the coach that told you someone should be teaching your daughter a waltz jump was breaching PSA ethics.

Honestly you come here constantly questioning your coach and her decisions. Why are you not going to her with your questions and if you are and are not happy with her answers, GET ANOTHER COACH. What you are doing now is not good for your daughter and it's got to be frustrating for you.

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Ask your coach what her progression plan is.

In my experience, little kids will start doing waltz jumps on their own, without any "teaching", as soon as they can manage a sloppy little three turn. Then they have a puny jump with not much of a landing until the rest of their skills (already listed by other posters) catch up. It isn't until FS1 that they will have the skills to make "working" on a waltz jump productive.

As for a coach other than your daughter's private coach or maybe a group lesson coach making suggestions, huge red flag there! Taking kids to Nationals may say something about coaching abilities, but it doesn't say anything about character. When my daughter was 4 or 5, I would have been flattered she'd been noticed by a high level coach and not had a clue how inappropriate those sorts of comments were. I'd recommend watching your step very carefully around that coach.

One thing I have learned is...when I get frustrated about my dd's progress, when I see others moving forward fast, and my dd still working on "X" , when I think she is ready for the next big thing...

Slow and steady wins the race.

Coaches who teach their students skills that they really don't have a good foundation for are setting them up for a big problem in the future. There are girls who are landing a few more doubles than my dd, but their "basic" skills are HORRIBLE! Yes, you can do a "whatever" jump, but can you do it WELL? Do you want a wobbly, unsure waltz jump? Or do you want a steady, confident, look-at-me waltz jump? The difference takes time. Maybe your coach is like ours, and does not want to build on a mediocre foundation, but an outstanding foundation. I have been won over by the "slow and steady" approach, and my dd has done well competition-wise because of it. We receive comments all the time about her presentation, flow, posture, style, etc., and that all comes from taking the time needed to have an outstanding foundation.

I guess what I want to stress to you is, we watch our kids skate, but we really, as moms, don't know what it takes to be ready for another element.
My dd will learn/land/improve a skill when she is supposed to, and not a second before. Nothing I do as a parent will get her there faster, except to provide her with what she needs to realize her potential....as in ice time, coaching time, and just love and encouragement from me.

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BuggieMom
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Some people are like a Slinky...not really good for anything,
but you still can't help but smile when you shove them down the stairs....

Buggie Mom and littlekateskates -
Why not join your daughter on the ice? One of my friends started skating when her daughter was in basic skills. Her daughter is now 12 and quit a couple years ago, but my friend just passed her Adult Gold MIF on Friday and was 4th at Adult Nationals last year in the Silver level. One of the things it will do is help you understand what's good and what's not even better and give you an appreciation for your child's coach and their training plans.

I agree with BuggieMom...slow and steady is better. I would be very worried of a coach who wants to introduce skills (jumps, spins, turns, anything really) too early...At the rink I skate at, there are quite a few younger skaters who are working on axels, however, their other singles are not solid...very slow, no flow out of them, very low to the ice, obvious flutzes, etc., and their spins are lacking, and finally, just basic skills are not strong (in particular, I find this with spirals not being executed well and with general extension) We even have a skater (who my coach just recently started working with on freestyle) who was told that she couldn't work on any other doubles or anything until her axel and double sal, toe, and loop were higher and bigger.

I get scared for these skaters because if they expect to continue, you need a good foundation...and if you don't have that good foundation, you are going to run into some big road blocks as you advance, and those can be more frustrating than taking your time in the first place...

I would suggest talking with your coach...talk about her plan for your daughter and set some goals. Believe in the plan because while other skaters at the same age/level as your daughter may be moving "quicker," skating is an individual sport and everyone gets things in their own time.

heh, and "big kids" too...

littlekateskate, I know that no one here is trying to be mean or nasty(jeez, how childish does that sound???) to you... and I don't want to discourage you from asking questions here, as the forum is really really helpful. I'd just like to share a personal coach-experience. I started doubting my coach quite early on. I ignored the doubts at first. But I kept thinking about a different coach, and I just didn't have a good feeling about my coach. Eventually, I switched coaches and it has made a world of difference. I doubt nothing that my new coach tells me, ebcause I have complete faith in him. Therefore, I am actually progressing quicker, am more enthusisastic about skating and everything is generally better.

I don't know what your situation is, or how your daughter feels about the coach, but I have two pieces of advice for you. 1) take a step back, and don't look at other kids (I mean, don't pay attention, or care about it). Just watch your daughter skate, and enjoy it. It may be that she is perfectly happy with the coach. At 3 years old, you're looking at having fun, not how quickly she is progressing. or, 2) Talk to your coach about your concerns. Don't worry about this, after all, the coach is an employee of yours, and you have a right to question her (politely, as in "i know I know nothing about these things, but..?") If you are doubting her, or are unhappy with her, then I think you should switch coaches.

Your daughter won't really have much of a say in this, like I did of course (going back to my example), but you need to really sort things out, because I see that you're unhappy with your daughter's coach at the moment. Without seeing the situation, no one can tell you what the right thing to do is, but I say that you shouldn't ignore your doubts.

If you have a coach, don't listen to other coaches. Everyone says different things, and they all work if consistently done. What I mean is, maybe the Nationals coach does things quicker - but he does everything quicker. Maybe your coach takes things slower, but he takes everything slower. You can't pick and mix.

Speaking as a child, I can tell you - it's better if parents don't interfere. In my situation, I have myself and my coach to direct my skating, in yours, you only have the coach as your daughter is too young to really control anything. But parents never make anything better, whether they're clueless or Olympic champions, they should stay out of coaching. If you have serious concerns, raise them with your coach, if s/he won't listen or change, switch. But don't stay with a coach whom you doubt. It's not worth it, and you'll kick yourself later for wasting all that time.


oh, and also:
this is exactly what happened with my first (bad) coach. i was in group lessons, she said
"do you have privates?"
"no"
"but you're soo good. come to my semi-private lessons"
*comes to lesson*
"oh my, you're so ahead of everyone in the group. you need private lessons. I have a spot on monday, why don't you come?"
*feels so flattered of the attention and compliments, goes to private lessons*
- later sees what a bad decision that was, but only after wasting a few months with the coach.

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Great tips - I love the backward edge / 5 second rule (coach counts, of course!) and the jumped FO3 techniques!

Could you explain the Forward INSIDE 3 requirement?

ITA. Last years, I had a group lesson "coach" tell my twins that they'd never be figure skaters. This, after the ninny taught them to do waltz jumps when they had no back outside edges and a weak little outside three.

They just started working on their half-jumps and sit spins last week.
BONUS: You can tell what they're doing - the maneuvers are recognizable and controlled.

Slow and steady.

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I know skaters who are doing double jumps that can't hold the landing edge for 5 seconds (besides - there is not enough time in the program to hold the edge that long anyhow)

Sometimes young skaters need something challenging to work on - and so once they can do the bunny hop and skate a forward outside edge for a bit and a backward outside edge - they can be shown the waltz jump on the goalie circle (line shows them the curved edge so they don't have to think about it and can concentrate on the rotating bunny hop action).

Sure lots can do more than a really bad imitation of a waltz jump - but if the coach takes their skating hand and 'helps' them rotate the turn - the skater feels like they have done something great and comes back enthused next lesson. Sure the coach needs to reinforce proper body alignment, shoulders etc.....but most young skaters don't remember the technical stuff anyway from week to week until it is drilled into their heads and becomes automatic. So I wouldn't worry too much about them actually 'getting' the correct action. Not such a big deal to fix once the skater is actually doing a jump.

The coaching challenge is how to deal with the parent/skater that thinks the miniscule wanna-be waltz jump - is actually a passable skill! Sort of like the parents/skaters who tell the skate shop that they are working on axels and doubles - when they haven't really mastered the singles

I have two Basic 5 groups this year and in reviewing their Basic 4 skills, I found their FO3's are weak. I've added it to my B5 curriculum because I think that an entire 8-wk session without 3's is going to make it that much harder for the skaters to master Basic 6's FI3's. Since 4 out of 5 skaters wanted to show me their waltz jumps, I'm going to tie the FO3's and the 5 sec. back edges to the waltz jump. 'You need to be able to do () and () before you can really do a waltz jump.'

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Slow and steady really is the best way. I keep hearing about our rinks high level skaters having fundamental flaws with their this or that basically from moving too fast early on and not correcting mistakes. They take twice as long to correct if not longer once they're ingrained in the muscle memory. Getting it right to start with, might seem slower at the time, but in the long run it really is quicker as there's nothing more frustrating than having to go back and relearn something right that you thought was already ticked off the learning list.

Oh and the one thing that really frustrates me with the kids at the rink is that they only want to practice the tricks. They don't like edges and turns which are the fundamentals. So you sometimes see kids wobble out on the rink and you go - look beginner - and then they go off and start practicing flips, jumping in the flip corner. Really doesn't look good, and I don't see how that's helping the skating, when the fundamental flaw is no basic stroking.

most of the "waltz jumps" you see in the rink are not actually jumps at all. The kids get crazy about jumping and want to learn to jump way before they are ready for. In USFSA the waltz is in Basic 8 (not freestyle 1) and it is a lot of work. My dd is a strong jumper and she thought she had a good waltz when she first learned it BUT the jump came to be a good jump at about the end of Freestlyle 1 (she was about 6.30years old). Even now (two years later) she occasionally has to go back and correct her entrance or landing. The jump has to have a JUMP in to it. A lot of kids do not jump at all, just rotate their body almost touching the ice and they call it a waltz. My dd's coach told us that there is a lot of pressure to the coach to teach the jump as early as possible. A lot of coaches do so in order to keep the kids happy and coming and NOT that the kids are ready for. I agree with everything that is said above and most important EDGES, EDGES and EDGES again.
I also have to add that because a skater is "capable" in pulling off an element it does not mean that you have to harry and bypass technique. I have seen this with my own dd. She is a natural jumper and a bad spinner but surprise surprise she has better spins than jumps. It took her for ever to spin but in order to do it she had to slow down and *LEARN* the technique. On the other had because she is able to land a jump in the first try she has no motivation to work on it and as a result her jumps are not always pretty to watch (body position, height etc).

I used to skate as a teen (I wasn't very good, and she passed my best up YEARS ago!), and after 20 something years off the ice, I have gotten back on a few times with my dd. She has been my "coach" and has made my crossovers much better! But after so many years (and pounds), even three turns are difficult, and I came to realize that when I say something like "Just check out!" to her after 16 "so close" double flip attempts, that it is a lot easier said than done! I was scared to death of a Salchow, and here she is doing doubles. Sheesh! Now, instead of "Just check out!" I tell her "That was a good fall!"

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BuggieMom
><>
Some people are like a Slinky...not really good for anything,
but you still can't help but smile when you shove them down the stairs....

Logan3 is correct; the waltz jump from a standstill is in USFSA Basic 8 as well as Freeskate 1, where the waltz jump is from back crossovers. I taught Freeskate 1 last session, so it was fresh in my mind. I've edited my original post.

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by the way, the waltz jump from a standstill is really helpful for building your power up to really send your -frombackcrossover-waltz jumps- flying. does anyone else think so? but that's off the topic...

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I just reread the post by peanutskates, who mentions that littleskaters dd is 3 years old........That makes a lot of difference as to what skills the poor child should be working on!

Years of working with that age group has show me that at 3 years old - most skaters can barely stand up, let alone do a waltz jump. Most are still screaming to get off the ice or sliding all over. A few are capable of actually skating across the ice and stopping and even fewer can do a real 3-turn. The bunny hops I have seen at that age are cute but not exactly preparation for a waltz jump. The skater just doesn't have enough balance and strength for some of the more difficult skills - let alone the attention span to remember all those instructions.

I'd make sure the 3-year skater was having fun, working hard on edges (forward and backward on a line) throw in some figure 8's for balance, play lots of skill games to master stopping, spirals, drags, shoot the duck (1 or 2 foot) bunny hops for fun ....and do mohawks and 3-turns, turns & x-cuts on the circle and LOTS of basic fwd & bwd stroking around the rink.....

Curious as to just how many 3-year olds in private lessons actually continue on to the national level as a senior.......or do they burn out from the expectations placed upon them so young when they should be just having fun. Anyone have any thoughts?

I think the little skater is 4 now, which makes a big difference at that age, but still...

The figure I keep hearing thrown around is that US Figure Skating estimates that only about 1% of skaters who start in LTS programs continue on to the Senior level. My daughter is one of them - started at age 5, and passed her Senior test at 17. She's not a competitive Senior, but it's still quite an accomplishment. I've seen many skaters she has competed with through the years, and who had more advanced skills, burn out and quit before passing their Senior test. Some attain the skills younger, some older, but all Senior skaters end up with the same minimum skill set in the end, or they wouldn't pass the test (obviously, some progress much further than that). It's more about longevity than passing tests quickly. Best to build a strong foundation and master each skill as it comes, and pace the training to minimize the chance of injury and avoid burnout.

This thread is perfect timing for my own sanity. Children of a young age should NOT be taught jumps until their basic skating skills are sound. Yes, they need to be challenged. However, there's a difference between challenging them (getting a clean FO3 or starting back 3s) and having them try little jumps that aren't correct. I absolutely agree that at the minimum she should be able to hold back edges for 5 seconds and do a decent, if not good, FO3. I would also add that they must have enough balance to do a FO3 in the opposite direction so their muscles aren't being trained on one side and not the other - a detriment when trying to land.

Example: We have a girl at our rink who's probably 5 years old. Her coach has her trying all singles through axel. This child can do an okay lunge, poor spirals, cannot do a one foot spin from anything other than a two foot spin, back crossovers are scratchy, and I've never seen them work on edges. Now, the coach is trying to have the girl do camel spins, etc, but obviously it's not working.

As for jumping, this child can do an okay waltz jump. It's not high, it's generally more of a turn with a bit of a hop, but for a 5-year-old it's okay. Her landings aren't held that often because she can't. She can only turn one direction. Her loops aren't landed (they spin mostly on the ice). The coach is having her do flips and lutzes by picking in, sort of turning 1/4 turn in the air, landing on two feet, and spinning on the ground, then saying she landed them. Same with axel - she sort of jumps, then spins, then does a weak landing position. In the harness she gets around as she's much higher, but she doesn't have the muscle development to do so off the harness.

With a 4-year-old, I would also question the muscle development. She enjoys bunny hops and can do them, but how controlled are they? How high are they? Can she do them with good speed and good edges in and out? If she's just in Beta (though she may be higher now) have her private coaches worked on edges down the line with her? Has she learned a proper 3-turn? All of these are skills its absolutely necessary for her to have before even thinking about working on a waltz jump, and even then it's a progression of skills that must be taught to get the mechanics of the jumps correct. This poor 5-year-old that I mentioned will likely have to relearn all of her jumps later, once she can actually land them. I would hate to see your daughter learn something she isn't ready for, then have to be frustrated down the road when she has to relearn it once her muscles and control develop.

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"Without a struggle, there can be no progress" ~ Frederick Douglass

[QUOTE=peanutskates;350478]heh, and "big kids" too...

littlekateskate, I know that no one here is trying to be mean or nasty(jeez, how childish does that sound???) to you... and I don't want to discourage you from asking questions here, as the forum is really really helpful. I'd just like to share a personal coach-experience. I started doubting my coach quite early on. I ignored the doubts at first. But I kept thinking about a different coach, and I just didn't have a good feeling about my coach. Eventually, I switched coaches and it has made a world of difference. I doubt nothing that my new coach tells me, ebcause I have complete faith in him. Therefore, I am actually progressing quicker, am more enthusisastic about skating and everything is generally better.

I don't know what your situation is, or how your daughter feels about the coach, but I have two pieces of advice for you. 1) take a step back, and don't look at other kids (I mean, don't pay attention, or care about it). Just watch your daughter skate, and enjoy it. It may be that she is perfectly happy with the coach. At 3 years old, you're looking at having fun, not how quickly she is progressing. or, 2) Talk to your coach about your concerns. Don't worry about this, after all, the coach is an employee of yours, and you have a right to question her (politely, as in "i know I know nothing about these things, but..?") If you are doubting her, or are unhappy with her, then I think you should switch coaches.

Your daughter won't really have much of a say in this, like I did of course (going back to my example), but you need to really sort things out, because I see that you're unhappy with your daughter's coach at the moment. Without seeing the situation, no one can tell you what the right thing to do is, but I say that you shouldn't ignore your doubts.

If you have a coach, don't listen to other coaches. Everyone says different things, and they all work if consistently done. What I mean is, maybe the Nationals coach does things quicker - but he does everything quicker. Maybe your coach takes things slower, but he takes everything slower. You can't pick and mix.

Speaking as a child, I can tell you - it's better if parents don't interfere. In my situation, I have myself and my coach to direct my skating, in yours, you only have the coach as your daughter is too young to really control anything. But parents never make anything better, whether they're clueless or Olympic champions, they should stay out of coaching. If you have serious concerns, raise them with your coach, if s/he won't listen or change, switch. But don't stay with a coach whom you doubt. It's not worth it, and you'll kick yourself later for wasting all that time.

I agree and disagree with this one. Sometimes parents need to interfere. I had this one coach my whole life and I wasn't getting anywhere. She seemed more like a big sister to me than an authority figure. I had almost no respect towards her. This began to make me hate skating. If my mother hadn't interfered, and gotten me a better coach(for my situation! ) I probably wouldn't be a skater anymore. Sometimes skaters need a different point of view. Personally, I find that keeping a standard border line between coach and skater helps me alot. I need the authority telling me what to do, not a friend. I am VERY thankful that my mother stepped in with the last two coaches I've ahd because I now love skating, and have finally become a pairs skater(my lifelong dream! ).

You are so right! The other thing I have noticed is that skaters are sticking with just one discipline - freeskate - either because they are too 'busy' to skate enough hours to train dance, moves, sklls, etc. or their parents just don't want to spend the money on lessions unless it is to jump and spin.

Skaters who did figures, freeskate and dance in the 'old days' were better technicians at those edges, turns now required for complicated footwork sequences, and could skate between jumps and spins. Mind you - quads were not the norm then either. The senior level skaters on the national scene either did some form of figures, or did dance up to a certain level.

And the skaters who are doing well with their component scores - are the ones that trained all the disciplines at a younger age!