Unlimited ice time is a US thing.

Apparently, many of the Russians have achieved success, training with twice as much off-ice as on-ice.

Wish more rinks would run a decent, structured off-ice program! This has the advantage of being cheaper than on-ice, plus more sociable to do it as a group.

Not knowing you and not being able to tell if you are as angry as you sound in your post, I can only tell you that I haven't read one post in which a parent plans to skate their little one to death this summer. I don't understand why you would tell us to have our kids knock themselves out blah blah blah but don't complain when they drop out... That was unwarranted. I hope I misunderstood your post...

Doug Leigh is a wonderful, successful, internationally known, excepted authority in the world of skating. That is exactly how my child's coaches are regarded in the world of skating. Again, not knowing you or anyone else on this board personally, I won't be dropping any names but suffice to say that the amount of time on the ice my child needs has been discussed and planned out with a great deal of care and with the consultation of these expert coaches. These coaches work with very young but very talented children all of the time and have a stellar record of their students remaining in the sport long into professional careers. I have no argument with Doug Leigh's theory. My child's coaches also believe that 1 1/2 - 2 hours of quality practice time is better for a child than exhaustive hours on the ice. In fact, when one of my child's coaches conducts his seminars that he gives for other coaches around the nation, he emphasizes that point.

Just to share how my child's workout plan is done when the sessions are an hour long. My child skates (moves in the field, spins, stroking and warm up jumps) for 45 minutes. 15 minutes before the end of the session, she comes off the ice, stretches, has a snack and rests. The next session she goes on 15 minutes late. (This gives her 30 minutes between sessions to rest). She skates again (big jumps and program) for 45 minutes and then is done for the day. She has afternoon lessons 2 afternoons a week and the times for those lessons are during one of the 2 afternoon sessions she already skates. 2 mornings a week she has a lesson before school so she is on the ice for about 30 minutes extra those days.

My #1 priority is my child's well being. Our child is talented and driven to skate. We never "make" her skate or allow her to skate more than is recommended for her. This sport is very difficult and as Mary said, not fun, from a parent's perspective. Parents are an overused target for criticism. It's extremely offensive when anyone decides they know how we "skating parents" are.

Sasha Cohen didn't have her doubles at 7 nor did she have her triples until she was in her teens. But even so, what is wrong with having dreams of going to the Olympics. When is it ok to shoot for that dream? Who gave Michelle Kwan permission and told her it was realistic and thus OK for her to dream of going to the Olympics. I encourage my child not only to dream but to pursue her Olympic dreams. I'm not planning to disown her if she doesn't make it!

Sorry to disappoint you...

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Babyskater's Mom

As far as letting my child have a life during the summer.....the rink is the only place she wants to be. That is her choice, its not me pushing it. She begs to stay longer....even if it's just to hang out with her friends. I've limited her on ice time to two hours a day, which I think is reasonable. She would prefer three. Even I would like to skate two hours a day myself, and I'm an old lady.

Babyskates, how nice if more parents were as caring and involved as you with a a good perspective on things. Not all parents are like you as you know....we've all seen parents who push injured kids to train, we've seen unrealistic expectations, etc, etc.. Not all skating programs are well organized and balanced either with the health of the skaters in mind. So, in that respect I can understand Pennskaters post, but agree it's not fair to generalize about "us parents".....I'm not going to generalize about what skaters need when to be successful either. There are exceptions.

Anyone can dream about the ultimate competition or goal, it's normal. Just read the yearbooks of graduating elementary school kids. They dream of being on all the professional sports teams, they dream of being famous, they dream all sorts of unrealistic things. Are you going to tell them to stop dreaming? No....Now when those expectations are the parents dreams, that's another issue...

It just so happens that our skating program does have National level competitors every year...and so the dream seems all the more attainable here as it's the norm.

I agree that the majority of skaters will hit a wall at some level, and that will be the end of the dream. I think that's normal too. We're there right now, so I can tell you all it's tough. But, you reassess your goals and go on with your life.

A big problem is with skaters that quit when they're 14 - 16. Burnt out, injured, disillusioned and want NOTHING to do with skating anymore. This has come up several times in Skate Canada seminars. One contributing factor is kids having to leave home and board with someone in order to train at a regional centre. The other is the intensity of the training and burn out factor. Not all centres are run by Doug Leigh.
Not every great skater peaked at age 12 or 14, there's lots of little jumping beans, and the Tara Lipinski's of the world have created the expectation that if you don't have doubles by age 7, might as well pack it in. Children are getting injured at a younger age, and out of the sport with back fractures at 13 and 14. I think this is an American influence, no offense.

Some of my kids play hockey, and the summer skating thing comes up in hockey too. We're considered weird in that we're not doing one or two or even three hockey schools this summer. (the wallet's empty, folks). There is also the perception that if you don't have skates on and a stick in hand all summer, there will be no big fat NHL contract. The chances of someone making it to the NHL are less than 1%, and of those, 75% of them come from small rural communities, usually where there isn't ice 12 months of the year. Something to do with big farmboys and being exceptionally fit also. I can't recall someone making it to the NHL who said "oh it's due to all the hockey schools I went to every summer". So, again, we do off ice programs, running, strengthening, shooting pucks off some laminate in the driveway. You'd know my house, all the windows are cracked

There are a lot of factors that lead to children quitting when they are 14-16. After nature has it's say, it may become clear whether or not a child has a reasonable hope of continued success. With changed bodies, some kids lose all of their jumps, their spins won't center, etc. They start to think too much and discover fears they never had before. These are teenagers with all the teen things going on. They want to be cheerleaders. They want to be popular. They want to concentrate on school so they can get into the college of their choice. Yes, sometimes they have been pushed to the point that they have lost their love of the sport and have no desire to continue. Any number of factors can be enough to lead a skater to want to quit. I think the single most dominant factor leading to teenagers quitting skating is growing up and growing out of the sport. There is more to life than skating.

There is no perfect formula, no perfect sport, no perfect coach. I guarantee that even Doug Leigh has had kids quit the sport when they reach their teens. It happens.

Arena_gal, I have to agree that the too much thing is American influenced. There is so much money in every sport. Television contracts help generate huge exposure. Kids can grab the gold and retire a millionaire many times over before their 18th birthday. Kids see the Taras and Sarahs and realize that they are as old as these stars are but no where close, skill wise. They have reached an age where they can think reasonably about their lives and futures so they may decide that they aren't destined to be the next great one. At that point, the dream is over and they may decide it's time to move on.

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Babyskater's Mom

I certainly agree with the comments about teens growing out of skating. That's where the numbers start declining. The following is taken from the Skate Canada web site:

"Today Skate Canada is the largest figure skating governing body in the world. Membership now tops 191,000 with 1,448 affiliated clubs.

Approximately 70.6% of Skate Canada members are registered in recreational skating programs. 20.7% are active test skaters with an average age of 13 years.

There are 3,503 competitive skaters registered as Skate Canada members and more than half of these are in the Juvenile and Pre-Novice levels. The average Skate Canada skater is 8.5 years old and is female. "

So, if there's less than 1,700 competitive skaters in Canada at the Novice, Junior and Senior levels, male and female in the 4 disciplines , combined , (out of 191,000 members), I wouldn't get too caught up in making it to the Olympics. JMHO Obviously, someone will get there, and you never know. So, keep dreaming. As Barb Underhill has said, "Dream Big". She should know.

One of the saddest things I saw recently was a girl who seemed to love skating quit because she finally realized she wasn't going to the Olympics. I had watched her skate (same sessions as my daughter) from pre-pre through pre-juv. Unfortunately, her coach led her and her parents on, letting them believe that she would soon be ready for national competition. Everyone else could see that she was going nowhere competitively, as she tried for an axel for two years unsuccessfully and was already 12. Perhaps if her goals had been realistic, she would still be skating for the pleasure of it.

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Just remember, though Doug Leigh is highly regarded, he himself does not have Olympic experience as a skater. I think parents should be wise enough to use better judgement than believe the load of garbage a coach will feed to them about how talented their child is. I personally know coaches who will say with more lessons Susie could improve, etc. Of course, these coaches are in the minority. Most coaches just want the kids to work to their potential.

Why I basically stopped skating at 14 (though i didn't quit altogether and I did go back a couple years later) was that I wanted a life. One of my skating days was on a Thursday, the same day as the school dances. I always had to miss them. Then I couldn't go to sleepovers because I skated Sat morning. And then I was becoming interested in band and didn't have enough time to practce. Nevermind I knew I wasn't terribly talented in freeskate but about that time I got scared of jumping. My body changed horribly. So I told my mom I didn't want to skate spring school that year, and I basically didnt go back except to coach and do dance. I also find more with the US than Canada (though i'm seeing more and more these days here) is that kids are often sent away. In Canada, that doesn't seem the norm. Ok, yes there are a lot of long commutes. My brother used to drive 2 hours to get to the arena he trained at, but my parents would never let him live away. When the section suggested he train at one of the big training centres he asked them why should he? My dad wanted to know why our section was not trying to make a training centre in our area. I also find with the Us, that the parents are willing to spend way more than in Canada. Now, my parents spent A LOT for my brother, but when I hear of some of the girls down in the states I'm shocked.

I wish there was a support group set up in every section in Canada and the US comprised of parents that could offer genuine advice and support. Perhaps they could undergo some sort of formal training put on by the respective governing bodies.

I am so confused.... you mean people actually take a break from the rink?

Could you clarify these sentences for me? Maybe Doug Leigh wasn't an olympian but he went to more Olympics games (as a coach) than some skaters themselves.
With all these skaters, he should know what worked the best overall... It's not like he had one and only one skater at that level.

But I may misunderstand you so that's why I'd like you to elaborate more on that.

The thing is, define "success"! After all, while we want to encourage our skaters to aim for the stars, realistically only one in a thousand is going to make a World Class skater. Should we, do you think, not rather be focussing on making our skaters the best they can possibly be, whether that is World Class, or whether, realistically, they will be a good Club skater who can help their club win League matches and challenges, but who will not make a mark nationally.

We don't have a problem with this in tennis - we accept that, realistically, our kid's chances of becoming the next Serena or Venus are infinitesimal - we are content if they are a good club player. It's a pity the same can't be true of skating.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

What I mean is Doug was never a skater or a competitor himself. He was lucky enough to get a shot as a coach, and managed to make a name for himself. He is a very good technician, but there are many many coaches out there who have little or no formal training and are not as good as he is.

I hear you and theoretically I agree but it's one thing to learn to skate and it is quite another to learn to be a competitive skater. Training a skater takes huge sacrifices of time and family resources. If a child can not learn the bigger skills, they will not be able to compete at a high level. To people for whom financial resources are limited, the expense may not be justifiable if the child is not demonstrating the ability to achieve at a high level. When you are scraping the bottom to make skating happen for your child, you are not going to define success by how much fun your child is having. They can have much cheaper fun. I hear parents talking about how it doesn't matter how their children do as long as they enjoy it. HAH! These parents don't realize that their children talk to other children. The public face doesn't match the private face. Practically no one is willing to go to work and live as a poor person anyway solely so their little one can have fun. The majority of the parents of skaters that I know are not extremely wealthy.

Club matches? What are those? In the nearly 6 years my child has been skating, I have not seen or heard about one of those. My daughter did do (just for fun) an ISI team jump and spin competition. That was great! Other than that, nothing. Who holds these? Do these occur in the US? Maybe it is something I can suggest to our club.

Frankly, in the US, we do have "a problem" in tennis, golf, soccer, every sport. Money is a great motivator. Sports no longer truly fit under the heading of amature. There is money in every sport here. So most people are shooting for the gold. It's a sad fact.

On the subject of shooting for the Olympics: It takes a certain mindset to allow yourself to dream big enough and go after that lofty a dream. You have to be able to believe in yourself in a way that most people can't comprehend. People call you crazy and deluded. Still you have to hold on to that fierce belief in yourself. My child knows that space is limited at the top but she believes that there is room for her. I'm not going to try to make her see things more "realistically." We have examples in our family that you can be among the few. My cousin, an Olympian, gave my daughter her official Olympic team jacket for Christmas. She wrote her a card in which she told my daughter to believe in her passion and to follow her heart. She told her never to listen to those who tell you that there are limits to what you can achieve. My cousin did this for my daughter because another successful family member had done something similar for her and it made a difference to her.

I think that in the course of your childhood, there comes the time when you will define what is realistic for you. You will know in your heart what you are capable of. If the wall does stop my daughter, she'll know and we will support her as she moves into other phases of her life. I realize that not everyone has unconditional family support but that is not unique to skating or even sports. Still, the vast majority of people anywhere are sane, kind hearted folks who love their children. Skating is just the world we on this forum live in.

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Babyskater's Mom

BABYSKATES, I think what Annabel means by "club matches" are kind of the British equivalent of our ISI competitions. They're events that are meant to be fun and somewhat competitive, but they're geared more toward skaters who are in the sport recreationally than they are toward skaters who are truly dedicated to making it to the elite levels. I think it's great that even at her level your daughter would participate in ISI events. I'm working on my Silver Dances and I'm planning to do my first one in September (I did USFSA Learn-to-Skate). I've been teaching the ISI program for over three years, and my rink just had its annual ISI competition yesterday. There are things I don't like about the ISI program, but watching the little guys (and the adults) have so much fun yesterday made me nostalgic for the days when competitions were about going out and having fun and cheering for all your friends and getting a medal no matter how you skated. The kids are always shocked when I tell them that at my competitions there are usually between six and fifteen girls in my group, and that last year in Lake Placid I was ecstatic to place twelfth in my initial round. (They're really impressed when I tell them it was one of the same complusories they did at Olympics last year, LOL).

Agreed. !! Wasn't Marijane Stong doing something along these lines at one time?

yes..but only for competitive skaters. And I think it was something to do with talent ID akters or else national team skaters

It would be nice if there was something to help guide parents thru when their skaters become competitive. My parents had no clue what they were doing and blindly followed a coach who in fact didn't give quite the advice that they wshould have got. It would have helped to have someone to ask questions to or offer advice

Babyskates said something that was so incredibly honest (not that that was the first time, I'm sure!) that I had to jump in. We "skating moms" at my rink talk often about how we are perceived, not only by the general public, but by fans of the sport who do not have children involved. I have seen a lot of comments on the Internet telling skating parents how to be "good" skating parents, and just let our kids have fun and if they make it, great. I don't think it happens that way. The plain fact of the matter is, my family cannot afford this sport just so my kid can have fun. He could do any sport he wants and have fun at it, and it would certainly be a lot cheaper. I fondly look back at the days of once-a-week soccer practices and two games a week at the local park, all for $65, and realize we are in a completely different realm with figure skating.

My kid wants to make it to the top, as simple as that. I don't tell him he has to be, nor do I tell him he should think that way. He just does, and as long as he is willing to put in the hard work that getting there requires, we will do what we can to support him. As a grown-up, however, I know things can happen, and priorities change, so I'm sure not making my reservations for the Olympics in 2010! When he starts complaining about going to the rink every day, or would rather spend Friday nights at school dances than going to bed early for a 5 am freestyle, then we are agreed that it is time to enjoy skating as one of many recreational activities, and back off on the lessons and freestyles and enjoy a Saturday night public skate with friends. I have seen a lot of kids staying in with all the signs that they want out--the complaining, the minor aches and pains that are magnified into reasons why they can't skate, constant trips off the ice to go to the bathroom or socialize, and parents actually having to bribe their kids to stay on the ice for another half hour or so. The parents get the message eventually.

I veered a little off course from the subject, but I really thought Babyskates hit it on the head. Back on topic, it is inconceivable that a serious competitive skater could take the summer off--where I live, we are in the middle of the club competition season, and competitive skaters are getting all tuned up with a focus on Regionals.

Team Challenge is a league of local clubs, geographically based, and usually involving about six clubs. There is a meet about once a month, often on a Saturday afternoon. There are several different categories for entry, for example Boys under Level 3, Girls over Level 6, Pairs under Level 3, Show Number involving a large group of skaters, etc. The club will put forward skaters for each category, and sometimes include a substitute skater. The individual skaters compete in their category, and depending on their placing, they earn points for their club. At the end of the season, one club is the league winner, and receives the winner's shield.

For recreational adult dancers, there is something called the Recreational Ice Dance League. This is for couples only. Meets again take place about once a month, and the league is geographically based, with a Southern and Northern League each of about six clubs. There are different categories for each ability level: eg. Rhythm Blues, Hickory Hoedown, Foxtrot, Silver Tango, Argentine Tango etc. The club builds a team from its skaters, mixing and matching couples. At the competition, the couples are identified by a code letter on the man's back (A, B, C). They start together from opposite ends of the rink, and are not marked, but the judges will hold up cards (A,B, C) to select the winning couple in the dance. There is also social dancing in between the competitions events, and generally a buffet of some sort. At the end of the season, the league winning club receives a trophy.

From time to time a club will run a friendly inter-club competition with a neighbouring club on similar lines to the Team Challenge. These work very well to involve more of the skaters in the club.

Most clubs also run internal club competitions for their own skaters, and there will be 4 or 5 of these a year.

Perhaps I should point out that ice skating in the UK is not a big glamour money-spinning sport like soccer (football) or golf, and there are relatively few parents spending very big money on it. And at this moment in time, we do not have any high profile world-class skaters (although there are several very promising youngsters now on their way up). However, I do think these club activities are a really big strength. Almost all the clubs also organise a Christmas show of some sort which involves any skaters who are interested, whatever their age or level, and they can progress over the years from a kiddies group number to a solo spot.

Not sure if you skate in the South of UK but the above sound like a mix of the two main inter-club comps here in the South.
We have Southern League which this year involved 5 clubs - there are 3 rounds (skated at a different rink each time) and at each round clubs put forward 4 skaters out of 6 categories (boys and girls at various levels) and the reserves usually go along to support and usually get to skate at least one round. Our club was second this year. There used to be just 4 categories and you entered each one but now with the choice, picking the right categories can really help win points!!! Alongside this competiton there is also a synchro development league competition for beginning synchro skaters.

Then there is the annual National Team Challenge - this year I think about 8 clubs have entered. Occasionally there are preliminary rounds but usually just a final round. This is the one that involves a show number which is compulsory, (up to 30 skaters any levels) and then the clubs can pick 8 (I think) categories from the remaining 11. These categories include singles in Free and dance at various levels. Pairs, couples dance, including a category for 'veteran' couples (adults) and artistic, individual or group. My kids are involved this year and the main problem is that it is a long day as there is so much skating to get through. The show numbers are always good fun to watch.

Our Figure Club often takes part in a 3-way match with two other local (ish) teams; this year, sadly, one of the teams had to withdraw, but it did mean our team triumphed! Quite a difference from a few years ago..... And we also take part in Southern League, and some years in Team Challenge. And the Dance Club does RIDL (me and my husband drew our match last night!).

It probably might be fun to get your club to challenge another club to a match. The two clubs would agree on levels and categories, from No Test Girls Aged 10 and Under to the highest level of men, according to what your clubs can muster in terms of skaters. You'd also need to agree a scoring system - 1 point for the lowest-ranked skater, for instance, increasing by 1 point up to the winner in each class - and perhaps a tiny trophy for the winning Club.

But even at regular Open competitions, in this country, there is room for everybody from the rankest of beginners to classes that qualify you for National competitions. You don't have to be a great skater - or even a good one - to compete regularly in this country. Most clubs hold closed competitions throughout the year where people tend to dip their first tentative toes into the competitive water, but local Opens are always fun, especially when there are a crowd of others from your rink to cheer you on.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I love the whole concept of the team matches! It's a great, different way to give more people a chance to compete and contribute to a team. I have often thought that one of the big problems with skating in the US is that it is generally an individual sport sold to the highest bidder. Certainly the team match competitions and the surrounding social events would help keep more people skating who love the sport and want a competitive outlet to participate in. I am going to print out these posts and share them with our club president.

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Babyskater's Mom

Don't the high school teams do similar things? If they had had high school teams when I was a kid, I probably would not have quit as early.

I never once said that the children shouldn't have dreams of the Olympics - I was criticizing the parents for EXPECTATIONS of making the olympics.
As Mrs. Redboots said:
"We don't have a problem with this in tennis - we accept that, realistically, our kid's chances of becoming the next Serena or Venus are infinitesimal - we are content if they are a good club player. It's a pity the same can't be true of skating."
I hear many moms say - my kid is going to make it to the Oly's - she has the genes because her mom is this or her dad is that or her relative is this ... blah blah blah. Never once do they say we HOPE she makes it -they have expecations, not dreams.
I agree it is not good to take the summer off, but as Doug Leigh proposes, it is good to take a vacation of 1-2 weeks off. It actually motivates the skaters because they are refreshed and eager to get back.
So often I see families chosing summer vacations where there kid can still skate every day - one went on the cruise ship with the rink just so they could still skate. That to me is over the top. It's okay if all you can afford is to 'vacation' when your kid goes to a competition, but these people do it the other way around.
So have DREAMS not expectations - and make sure it really is okay that they can fail and continue.

I don't agree with generalizing about skating parents & saying they are all bad guys. And I don't believe they are an overused target for criticism either. I've been involved in skating for years & I interact with the crazed parents everyday. There are plenty of them, with unbelievably bad behavior & attitudes. As soon as some leave there's another batch to take their place. Maybe the percentages are higher than in other activities because of the starstruck factor & enormous expenses involved in skating. Again, I don't at all think that most parents fit this category so generalizations are not in order. But there are a good percentage who do, & they should not be given free reign but instead should be taken to task when the opportunity arises for the myriad of troublesome problems & ill will they cause.

ITA with pennskater that many parents have extremely unrealistic expectations about where their kid is going in skating. People who have not had to hear these kind of parents gushing ad-nauseum about life when Mary or Johnny go to the Olympics are very lucky. I hear it constantly. pennskater is absolutely right that what needs to be changed in the culture are the types of attitudes, sense of entitlement & expectations that cause parents & skaters to believe this way.

It's just like anything else - the bad apples give the rest of us a bad name. I'm sure we could all trade "skate parents from h***" stories - that might make an interesting thread right there. We've dealt with them too. I think the most important thing I've read is that the goals and dreams, whatever they are - Olympics, Nationals, Regionals, or just landing that darned axel - have to be the kids' goals and not the parents'. Usually the trouble starts when the parents try to push their own dreams off onto their kids.

Pennskater mentions vacations. Since my daughter skates year-round, I've become a huge believer in taking a week or two completely off the ice over the past couple of years. We took our family vacation over spring break this year - to Hawaii. My understanding is that there is one rink on the islands, and darned if I was going to spend my beach time looking for it. It was absolutely what the doctor ordered. Junior was rather tired and burned out in a lot of things before we left - school, skating, dance. The night before we left to come home, my mother asked her what she was looking forward to when she got home. First thing was seeing her dog again. Second thing was skating. She did have a little bit of the rust factor the first couple of days back, but by the end of the week was landing everything that she landed before, and more importantly to me, there was a joy back in her face when she was skating that I hadn't seen in awhile. So I completely agree with getting away from the rink for a week or two a year if the skater is going year-round. Even if we don't go anywhere big next year I will probably have her take a little bit of time off and just go have fun.

Actually, the summer works out quite well...she gets all of her skating done four weekday mornings a week, spends the afternoon with friends doing regular kid stuff - video games, bikes, etc. Dad only works four days a week during the summer so they have one full day to go and do "fun stuff" all day (grr - while I still have to go to work. Hmmpf.) I have her skate for one hour on Saturdays only because I wouldn't see her skate at all for the entire summer otherwise. When school is in session she can only do one hour a day due to the way her school, rink, and my work schedules fit together, so she pretty much skates twice as much in the summer and still has a load of free time.