Again, I would like to remind you guys... please do NOT mix me and Terri into the mix! I have MY OWN opinions as to who I think is mean spirited and who's not. Terri has hers and if she feels that she's being attacked, she has every right to say so. But only she can speak for herself.


Again, if you read further on, I wrote that I know some people are going to disagree with our cause going into this. And they're entitled to their opinion and cause, just as we are entitled to our opinion and our cause too! (skaternum made a great analogy about it likened to the pro-choice/pro-life thing. This is exactly that sort of thing!)

Quote:

I thought this thread is about allowing pre-Bronze at AN, not about how hard it is to pass the Bronze test.

All topics are always going to go off on some tangent. It's the nature of the beast. The other tangent this thread went off on was that we were talk about getting enough judges for AN, which of course, goes off on a tangent about which judge is judging which event. And God knows how we dragged Saffy into this!

That's why I kept saying "This is a petition! If you don't support it, DON'T SIGN IT!!! It's as simple as that!!!" No skin off my nose if you don't support it. JUST DON'T SIGN IT and walk away!!! (If you DO support it though, please sign it, of course!!!)

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Here's the numbers for this year.

Easterns:
http://www.centralcarolinasc.com/EventList_2006AES.aspx

PB Ladies II&III - 3
PB Ladies IV - 2
PB Men IV - 1

Mids:
http://www.strongsvilleskating.com/Adult_Schedule.pdf

PB Ladies III/IV/V - 6
PB Pairs - 2

Pacifics:
http://www.smisc.org/results.html

PB Ladies I&II - 3
PB Ladies III - 4
PB Men III - 2



And, Peach Classic 2005
http://www.gafsc.org/peachclassic/2005/results.htm

PB Ladies II - 2
PB Ladies III - 5

Halloween Classic 2005
http://iceworkssc.org/HalloweenClassic/hc2005a.html

PB Ladies - 5
PB Men - 2


Rob

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2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
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2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!

No, I'm not a judge. I did, however, test Pre-Bronze MIF (the version with the alt 3's) and Pre-Bronze FS. Oh, and in case you missed my earlier post, I passed them the first time, so this is not about being bitter over a retry, as NoVa incorrectly assumed. When I was working on the test, my coach told me that, based on what she'd seen and heard about the judging of adult MIF tests and Pre-Bronze in particular, the judges would probably apply the Preliminary standard rather than the Pre-Preliminary standard, and that it was really not looked at as an encouragement test, even though it was pass/retry. (remember, Pre-Bronze MIF at this point had 2 Prelim moves - crossover figure 8's and alt 3's)

Based on the comments I got on the test form, and based on the Pre-Prelim and Prelim MIF tests I've seen and heard details of, I would say that my coach was probably correct. I would also bet that the retry rate of Pre-Bronze MIF (the version w/ the alt 3's) was quite a bit higher than the retry rate of Pre-Prelim MIF. Yes, I know that was the basis for getting the alt 3's replaced on the test, and I know this thread is not about MIF so I don't want to get too far off-topic.

Well, you don't really have a valid example here. The woman you are talking about is getting about 2.5 hrs total skating per week. How you can you expect to have any progress at that rate. I have skated for about 2.5 yrs now and i am working towards my juvenile test which I could probably pass now but I don't want to be forced to compete up since i don't have a double axel..which is necessary to be competetive at that level. I skate 4 times a week and get about 12 hrs of skating per week overall. And about 45min of that is lesson time. That is 5x more than your example...so of course i would be getting more progress.

And don't tell me adults have more time constraints. I have to wake up at 4:30 4 days a week so i can get to my freestyle session and still be on time for school. I get out at about 3, at which point i have either tennis or track practice until 4:30. I get home and eat and am at my volunteer job for required hours at the hospital by 5, or if i'm not vulunteering that day i have to work at my mom's yoga studio. I'm home at about 7 at which point I have to get to the rink. i get home at about 9 and i still have a ton of homework to do b/c i am in IB classes which gve you the biggest workload. I am lucky to get 5 hrs of sleep on a good day. So don't even bring up adults having to deal with work...don't even

Excuse me? I skate about 2.5 hours per week and I make plenty of progress, thank you very much.

Adults, you see, pay their own bills and plenty of us can't *afford* to skate every day, like you do.

Okay, we're on another tangent, but here goes...
Well part of it is the added time you spend on skating and part of it is the age differential. I think re the 2.5 hours a week, I think it would be better spent doing a half-hour every weekday morning than two hours one day and 1/2 hour another day. So maybe it's not the number of hours but the spread of hours over the week, but that's just a guess... I don't know that particular skater's situation

beachbabe, clearly you are not a typical teenager with all that you have going on in your life, so I don't think anyone will say to you that they have too many time constraints. However, I think when people are talking about adults vs. kids and the time they have to spend towards skating, they're talking in general. That is, in general most kids have more time to put into skating than most adults, and most adults have more problems fitting skating around work obligations than most kids. Granted there are exceptions... you seem to be one and trust me there are exceptions among adults as well. Those adults who have the time/energy/resources to spend >10 hours/week skating, more power to ya.

And beachbabe, while your life now may seem a little crazy and overbooked, enjoy it now because life will throw many more obstacles your way into adulthood. The way you are going now, though, you seem to be prepared to handle it.

OK, back on topic...

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Whatever!

No kidding. Besides, everyone is different and progresses at a different rate. I typically skate even less than 2.5 hours a week -- probably an average of about 90 minutes to 2 hours -- and I think I do OK.

i guess it came out sounding a little rude, but thats not the way i meant it. The person i was replying to was amost comparing my skating with the 38 year old woman who has been skating for 1 year. i was just trying to say that its not a very valid comparison, because her struggling through the basic group lessons is not so much showing some physical disadvantage as opposed to me, but jsut showing that she skates less than me. So its pretty much impossible to compare what this womans progress may have been skating on my scedule with my coach for the same number of hours as me.

I was not trying to insult anyone that skates less than me, so i'm sorry if it came out that way

I signed it. I'm not pre-bronze or even bronze, but I figured if I was I would love support, so I am backing, encouraging, and supporting those pre-bronzers.

After all I would like to skate at AN one day.

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After the last couple of days and the several postings on this issue, this is my final thought.
We (Jazzpants, Debbie S, myself and a few others) put this petition together to get support for a idea that would help increase the numbers at AN. It has been said that the numbers have been on a constant decline since 2002, whether it's the economy, the moves requirement , life in general ( why I didn't take Bronze moves for the first time until last week) whatever it is we really don't have one collective answer.

All we got was a lot of raising Cain and shouting that this is Nationals and that Pre Bronze skaters do not have the technical ability to skate at Nationals. Well for those of you that want a "true" Nationals, here is my idea:
Make AN all qualifying. All skaters from Pre Bronze to Masters, all disciplines, etc would have to qualify through Sectionals. From what I've heard this has already been talked about and received with just as much objection as this same issue that we've discussed for the last couple of days, but hey, you want it, you may get it someday.
What that would do is bring some of the best adult skating that this country has to offer.

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

Okay folks, this is really SAD! I woke up this morning thinking about this thread! Aaaaaaghhh!!! ROFL!

But here's what crystalized in my mind: The truth is that I actually don't care who gets to participate in Adult Nationals as long as the principle is applied consistently. We should have a consistent underlying philosophy that governs who gets to skate at Adult Nationals, and I figure we have two options to choose from:

OPTION #1: ALL-QUALIFYING ADULT NATIONALS

Objective: To stay true to the "National Competition" concept and get the maximum amount of respect for adult skaters by having Adult Nationals mirror standard track Nationals. You have to earn the right to compete at Nationals.

What it Looks Like: Only those in the top 4 from each event at each Sectionals competition get to compete at Nationals, whether they are Gold II, Bronze IV or anything in-between. The Adult track age classes and classifications (Bronze, Silver, etc.) would be the only major deviation from standard track Nationals, since age considerations are the reason the Adult track exists to begin with. Obviously, a major problem would be the fact that attendance wouldn't be high enough for it to pay for itself, so it would have to be subsidized somehow.

OPTION #2: ALL-INCLUSIVE ADULT NATIONALS

Objective: To give adult skaters a large enough field of competitors that they actually get a similar experience as all the kids at the local competitions (i.e., the experience of having to skate qualifying rounds and really fight for a podium spot).

What it Looks Like: Just like it is now, except that the open events that currently make up the majority of AN are expanded a bit so that we don't deny this experience to just one little group of adult skaters (Pre-Bronze). Everyone who has joined USFS and started the testing process would be welcome to compete. That includes Pre-Bronze and, sure, if people are having trouble passing the Pre-Bronze test, why not allow no-testers to compete in the Pre-Bronze group as well.

I think anyone who participates in a non-championship event at AN is applying a double standard if they say one group of adult skaters should be kept out of Adult Nationals because we want to mirror standard track Nationals.

Doubletoe,
You and I had the same idea at about the same time!!

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

No, I had mine at 5:30 this morning in the shower, heh heh. I just forgot to post until now!

So basically ... all or nothing at all.

Alrighty then.

Well, my point was just to be consistent in philosophy, whichever one it is, KWIM?

Not really! LOL. Why only two philosophies?

I thought we established that no one meant mirroring standard track. Maybe not. I know I said there needs to be a "standard," but I didn't mean anything about doing what standard nationals does. That's just me though.

I have been reading the discussion on the Pre-Bronze skaters.
What do you all think about allowing Pre-Bronze skaters to enter the Bronze event?

They allow this at the ISU Adult Open hel din Germany this year. It just seems that AN is getting very big and adding 8 more events may be very cumbersome for the organizers.

I think several folks were saying just that. Standard track doesn't allow below Juv at a national level, so we shouldn't allow pre-bronze. As I said before, as a rhetorical statement, if we mirror standard track, then AN should only be championship gold, championship masters, championship dance, and championship (if they approve it) pairs. Pretty boring, IMO.

Really....what's the big deal about allowing pre-bronze? I've heard elitist arguments -- they haven't passed such-and-such test so they shouldn't be allowed. Well, I can apply that to bronze freestyle, and silver freestyle - both of which are lower test standards than standard juvenile freestyle.

Look, I would love to win the championship gold event at AN. Could it happen? Maybe, maybe not. I'd love to win the open Gold III event at AN. Could it happen? Maybe, maybe not. Jazzpants would love to win the open Pre-Bronze III (? ) event at AN. I say let her try.

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I am going to speak from a purely selfish and realistic point of view.

I would like to see pre-Bronze at AN. Why?

Because at 60 years of age with a rebuilt left knee and arthritis in some of my joints, I have to be realistic of how far I can go. Bronze? Maybe but it may be a stretch since I know it may take another year or two and frankly, I am not getting any younger. At least having the opportunity to compete in AN in pre-Bronze, I can at least say I competed at AN in Pre-Bronze (V) to enjoy the thrill of it before being relagated to a nursing home somewhere sucking strained beets through a straw and watching Soap Operas all day in the TV room...

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Just to add a couple more numbers to what Rob had posted...

Skate Wilmington 2005 Pre-bronze Ladies --- 7

2005 New Year's Invitational Pre-Bronze Ladies I -- 3
Pre-Bronze Ladies II -- 4
Pre-Bronze Ladies III/IV -- 5

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August 22, back on the ice!

If Nationals were to be done all with qualifying through Sectionals, etc., would there be enough skaters in each subgrouping to make it worthwhile?

Bronze I had what, 10 competitors? Would they have had as many if they needed to attend a qualifying competition first, with all the attendant expense that would include? I think the idea's great in theory, but I fear that in the least-crowded age ranges, it would become just a money waster. ("There's only 9 people at my level thinking of going to AN, because in order to go, we had to go to Sectionals first, and we have work/kids/life/etc. But all nine of us have to go to Sectionals to qualify.")

Otherwise, qualifying neatly takes care of the no-program problem with the pre-Bronze test.

Hmmmm? Another good compromise!!!! It would keep the number of events down. Also, given the intimidation factor of being able to compete against the Bronze ladies, may scare off enough of the "beginners that never did a program in their lives" to allow the more experienced Pre-Bronze skaters who has a LOT more experience doing programs to give it a go.

Your comments, dcden?

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

And I will add Skate San Francisco and St. Moritz.

Skate San Francisco:
Pre-Bronze I and II - 4
Pre-Bronze III and V - 3

St. Moritz:
Pre-Bronze Ladies - 3

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Just to mention, the reason why one can enter bronze at ISU O'dorf is because every country has a different testing standard, and there is no way to create a consitent mapping system for all those levels for adults. So they rely on the skaters to group themselves according to level.

The O'dorf competition structure reflects the history of world adult skating, which largely grew around Mountain Cup, a USFS-sanctioned and sponsored event. With O'dorf being an ISU and not a USFS event, however, USFS test levels cannot be brought to bear.
Remember although there is "loose mapping" between different countries' testing structures, each country has a totally different system and thus it would be very hard to have strict test eligibiltiy requirements for skaters of each nationality.

The point is that saying that pre-bronze skaters would be able to skate at the ISU bronze level has no bearing on the adult nationals discussion. Remember, according to O'dorf, anyone can enter any event. A pre-bronze skater can enter bronze, silver, gold, heck, even masters. (C'mon jazz, will we see you in the master's level at O'dorf? )
That said, you can also skate down one or several levels (and people do do this) because there are no test maximums for each level.
Again, the O'dorf model is not relevant to the pre-bronzers entering AN.

And letting pre-bronze skate in the bronze levels? That is not fair to the bronze skaters who have worked hard and have passed those tests.
What would be the motivation to pass the bronze tests since one could skate up to bronze?

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The motivation? From one skater who you know has skated up to Bronze in the past, the motivation would be improvement in hopes of staying out of the cellar! That and getting a 500 pound 5 year gorilla off my back!
Can I comment on some things that are not fair? The changes that they made on the Pre Bronze moves test by taking out the alternating threes that I, Debbie S, MSF and quite a few others suffered from. The fact (and a few others on this thread don't seem to acknowledge this) that there are Pre Bronze skaters with better basic skating skills staying at home, as opposed to upper level skaters.

Next...???

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"