Well, we worked on the loop tonight and tried it from a two-footed back 3-turn sort of thing, which helped. Then I was able to "twist my feet around each other" (hey, it's a concept thing she's trying to get something in my thick skull).

I will be working a bit on it tomorrow, but not too much, because if I get hurt before the big show, I'm in trouble

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Oops, sorry I didn't see this until today!

To keep myself from prerotating, I had to make a concerted effort to keep my right shoulder back (I am a CCW jumper and spinner.) A lot of my prerotation would come when I would try to draw my arms in to aid rotation in the air, and I had a tendency to swing the right arm around, thus releasing the shoulder, instead of bringing my right arm towards my body such that I would almost fist my own chin! It would always help to remember to try to "sock it to myself".

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I can't imagine how that would be easier.

For me the waltz-loop is harder than any other combo ending in a loop, but that's more because of the waltz aspect of it (never liked waltz combos). Anyhow all I do in any combo is land with the free leg in front instead of behind, and immediately do a loop jump. I would think that putting the free leg back onto the ice would screw the timing and balance up. Also, I would question whether that indicates that you're actually using it to assist the takeoff, which should not be the case.

The easiest combo ending in a loop for me is the toeloop-loop.

I saw a girl at the rink today practicing loops from an entry involving multiple 3-turns, i.e. RFI3, RBO3, RFI3, RBO3, RFI3, loop. At no point did the left foot touch the ice. Those are hard!

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Don't worry, my forward foot is on an inside edge too (I do loops from backward crossovers though, if you do it from a 3-turn your forward foot should never even touch the ice) and I never have any problems, the loop is my best jump.

If your forward foot's on an outside edge, you're crossing your feet WAYYYY too much..there'd be no way to get a triple out of it ever, and the take off position with both feet on outside edges would look realy ugly. And really, I think, in single jumps and even doubles, you should ask yourself..."could I get a triple out of that?" cause if you couldn't, then the technique can still be improved upon. Triples require near perfect technique, so even if you don't do them, it's always good to ask yourself that.

Ideally, your forward foot's heel should be right in front of your back foot's toe before take off.

PS: If you can do a loop from one 3-turn, it really isn't hard to do it from multiple 3 turns. I used to do that when I learned my double, the momentum you get actually helps.

Interesting you say that the technique must be wrong because both coaches at our rink who suggested it to me and advocate this technique have skaters who land perfect triple loops and both of them used to use this technique themselves. You are not crossed *way* over to do it at all, just enough so that if you do a double, you lift directly from that position and you're free leg is in the correct position in the air. It's a way to keep your hips square but your free hip from inhibiting your rotation.

Makes sense. It sounds like you would want the heel of your free foot just to the inside of the toe of the takeoff foot, i.e., your free foot is turned out a little so that when you take off, it pulls into position and you aren't kicking your shin with the heel of your free foot. (I'm picturing a double or triple here).

Casey, wasn't saying (I think I didn't explain myself clearly ) that I put my L foot back on ice in a waltz / loop combo. I don't. You can't do one that way anyhow, can you??!!!

What I was getting at is because I do a single loop with the L foot gliding along technique, I was wondering if that hurts me in doing the combination of waltz / loop.......

I say this because I would think it would be sounder to learn to do a loop with L foot OFF the ice, then it follows it might be easier to do a waltz / loop combo as you are already used to the balance.

I hope this is clearer.
And that it makes more sense.

Sorry for being so vague!

It's all person specific whether it's easier to learn it with it on or off the ice.

Oops, sorry I misunderstood, now you see why I thought it was so odd!

I doubt it. For me, it was easier to do the loop from a 3-turn entry at first. Simple reason being, when I'd try it with the L food gliding along, I'd cheat the takeoff, putting some of the weight onto the L foot, so it wasn't really a loop. Once I could do loops from the 3-turn entry without the L foot assist, then it didn't take too much longer to learn them properly with the L foot gliding along, but not using it at all. As long as you're truly not using it, then it shouldn't hurt the waltz-loop combo.

Maybe I'm weird, but every jump is easier on ice than off for me, so I've never bothered much with off-ice practice.

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"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
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Well, I do it like I said above, so I think it depends on the skater. But maybe the coach is talking more about a feeling or imagery rather than actually having the front foot on an outside edge. I don't know. But I picture people trying it and just getting their body position all out of whack.

As far as using that formula to "get" your leg where it should be...you should be able to get your hips and legs where they should be regardless. How do you expect people to do a triple loop from double three turns (which they need to do now with COP in place) if they can only get their hips and legs in the correct place by putting the front foot on an outside edge? The front foot has NO bearing on your jump or air position at all...it should barely even be touching the ground. You should be able to do loops from backwards with the front foot in the air, for that matter- my coach used to make me do this. I think that if someone is *trying* to get their front foot on an outside edge, they'll put weight on it, and that's the biggest mistake in loops. So I really don't agree with those coaches, but if it works for their students, good for them. I just think it's the kind of advice that has more chances of messing someone up than helping their jumps, especially without a demonstration.

Once you get comfortable with the body alignment (and trust me it gets you to the perfect spot and if the upper body goes early, forget it, so you have to have the timing correct), you can change the entry or make the loop the second jump. I am not at a point with my double loop that I feel I could make it a second jump - yet - but I have excellent single loop combinations as the second jump, it's a matter of body position. You aren't jumping off two feet, either, if that's going to be your next argument.

It isn't "imagery" and you can do it from the backward power three entry, so you've got your IJS points for a variant entry, which is how most of these girls and boys are doing it. Two of them are going to Nationals - one Junior and one Senior and several made it to Sectionals and JN's.

What I'm trying to say here is: to each their own. *I* think it's a bad explanation, but if it works for some people, then great. Can't you at least agree that people teach and learn things differently? Maybe your coaches teach that way, but none of mine ever have (and I've had Olympic coaches, which apparently is relevant to you) and I couldn't imagine trying to learn it your way. I don't see how that's so hard to agree on, and move on.

The only thing that actually bothers me about your reply is that although it probably doesn't aim to be that way, I take it as really condescending...as if...these people you're talking to know better than anyone else here because "they're Seniors" or "they've made it to Sectionals". I have made it to Junior Sectionals too and have had a triple loop forever. I don't brag on here, I think it's lame, but if it comes to "credentials", I think I know my triple loops, and really my loops in general- it's my best jump. So I will repeat, it's a matter of the skater. I could never do what you're trying to explain, and I have no problems landing triple loops or, as is apparently important, qualifying out of Regionals. Anyway, I'm done debating this, it isn't useful to anyone. There are two opposing pieces of advice on this thread, take whichever works best for you.

Hey Nova, Just to clarify what techskater is talking about, the front/free foot being on a outside edge for the take off is ever-so-slight and just before you go into the jump entrance (at this point you are gliding backwards almost on a flat!). The free leg in the front helps flatten out the entrance which helps you keep control of the jump. It also just helps get your free leg in the right position (in front rather than out to the side). You aren't actually riding a deep outside edge when you are using this technique. It just helps skaters keep control of the entrance to give a cleaner jump in the air (helps prevent free leg out-to-the-side issues).

I have used this technique to help flatten out the entrance for the loop take-off and it helps to prevent taking off from a super-curved deep edge (which will whip the jump around and makes people lose control). It would be nice to get on the ice with you so I could show you this.

Kristin the loop girl (loop is my favorite jump!)

Hah!!! I have the OPPOSITE problem-too flat an entrance and i'm not on the outside edge AT ALL (I'm beginning to not like this jump....)

I think it's a "fear of falling over" issue

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I know what you and others mean. My coach eschews that technique, so I always got the impression that it was just wrong. In reality, I guess she just prefers another technique.

(And Kristin, are you going to AN this year?)

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Me too, re the RFI three loop entry. That was much easier for me than doing a loop from back xovers. I don't use my L foot at all. There's no weight on it.

As for off ice work, that (again ) is not what I was saying. I was saying that maybe a waltz / loop would be easier, if one learned the loop from the RFI, where you do NOT put the L foot gliding along on ice.........Sheesh! I need to get my head examined, as can't explain anything precisely!

Loop is my favorite jump, too! There's something so satisfying about the feeling of the lift and rotation of that jump.

I think I know what you mean about flattening out the entrance to the jump. When I get too curvy and take off from a very tight small back crossover, my coach tells me I'm flushing the jump down the toilet! (The smallness of the circle when I do it wrong resembles how the water in a flushing toilet goes into a smaller and smaller circle.)

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I originally learned the loop from a FI3. I skate CW, so it was a LFI3 for me. IMO, this is the easiest way to learn the balance you need and the turn gives sufficient momentum to complete the single w/o much effort. After I graduated from this, I learned the back xover method. Can't comment on the BO edge discussion. Never thought about it. I think I may have done it though.

For me the key to a decent loop is to skate very fast back xovers or even alternating back xovers down the length of the rink, cut across and jump before you slow down. Once you can do a simple back xover loop, go for speed. This jump is an absolute blast. IMO, skating fast into it and telling yourself "jump now, you chicken" gets results. I also think a loop is one of the easiest jump sto do when skating like a daredevil. It is a rush. For a gal pushing 40, I have a huge powerful single loop.

Kay

Kay

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The loop and lutz were the toughest jumps for me to learn. I also learned the loop from a RFI3 and then progressed to doing it from back x-overs. It seemed utterly IMPOSSIBLE to do it from x-overs at first. I just couldn't get the timing. It helped me to make a few attempts doing x-overs, then do one from a 3 to get the feeling of the jump back, then try the x-overs again.

Tips that help me with the loop from x-overs:

1. Keeping right arm pressed back.
2. When I go to bring my arms in, I just think of bending my elbows and leaving my shoulders where they are so I don't pre-rotate.
3. Getting my right hip directly underneath me.
4. Bend!
5. Riding the RBO edge as long as possible.
6. Lifting the L knee up quickly to get better pop in the air.
7. Keeping my free (L) leg in front. I don't cross the L foot over, just keep it where I can see it!

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I had the same experience during transition from RFI 3 loop entry to back xovers! The timing was just , and I still lose it sometimes.

I liked your tips. R arm pressed back, and the tension/mini-torque created in the body is what helps me the most.

Also found your tip about free (L) leg interesting. My coach is correcting my on the waltz / loop combination , and says I am crossing my free (L) leg over too much. In the single loop, I don't do that!

How did you know what I tell myself?! Bet I'm not going nearly as fast as you! I keep pushing it though. I think it is actually easier if you enter it with more speed.

I'll have to try that, kay--I followed your suggestion in another thread for doing falling leaf from back crossovers with speed, and boy is that fun! I have a better leg position (though still far from splits) and really pop up into the air when I have decent speed from the crossovers. I'll have to try that with the loop, too!

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We had a seminar recently, taught by a PSA masters rated coach. His "tip" for how to practice a way to keep from opening up too much during the loop jump is to touch your nose with your left hand (assuming CCW direction) when your feet leave the ice. Obviously, you don't want to do this during a competition or test!

Joan--that reminds me--I think one time I saw someone do a loop in their program with arms in the "Tano" position. Just like a tano lutz changes the look of the lutz jump, the arm position for that loop made the jump look totally different....

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When I took lessons in Japan, my coach had me go into the loop from a LFI edge to a RFI mohawk, crossing my R-foot behind into the loop preparation. After doing the loop more traditionally in the states--from a RFI 3 at first, then from L back crossovers, the new entrance gave me much greater speed and power.

Lately, I've noticed some of the Japanese women using the same entrance, including Yuka Sato.