I signed up for practice ice not knowing about the 20 minute warm up. I've never skated in a competition that had a day-of warmup before, and I LOVED it. It made a huge difference to have a mini-practice a few hours before the competition, both in getting the nerves out and mentally readying myself. It's one of the main reasons I'm thinking of competing Championship Gold next year.

Manley - you're right. The monitors should not have to police "adult" skaters. It did seem like there were several substitutions as well. The volunteers did a great job, and I enjoyed speaking with the local residents.

I've done the practice ice at most all the events, and fortunately with few problems. Its not so much to fix anything, but to block out the program on that ice and keep skating, as I like to be at Lake Placid for the entire week.
The practices early in the week were great, and I skipped practice the day before my event to give my knee a rest.

The flower girls were wonderful, and too cute!!!


Mel, that was me!!!!!! And you and your friend graciously offering help was one of the highlights of my week.
And I saw your practice - what impressed me was how well you moved over the ice - very fluid.

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In case you didn't realize it, that was our very own flo from this board! She does skate beautifully.

Rob

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2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
2009 Adult Nationals - competing with a cold is not much fun.
2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!

I didn't make the connection -- that makes me even more proud!

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Wang chung!

Mel's friend was me!

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Your sit spins are great. Very low to the ice.
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Wasn't me that started the rumor... but now that you brought it up, dcden is looking to skate pairs and he's looking to be the girl in the pairs!!! I immediately thought of you as his pairs partner b/c you're in the area and you're strong enough to lift him. (Just raggin' 'ya, MSF!!! I know. No pairs either!!!)

But seriously I'm very happy to have met you, MSF!!! And ladies... he may be older but he's still a HOTTIE!!!

It was an interested experience being the liftee for both dcden and NoVa at the AN party. I never would imagined dcden being THAT strong, never mind lift me considering that Jay is about dcden's height and weight and HE couldn't lift me. (Then again I lost like 16 lbs since last year when Jay last tried to lift me so...) Granted this is off ice, but it wasn't as scary of an experience as I thought (getting lifted that is.) And I'm glad I wasn't too heavy for you guys, NoVa and dcden!!! (And before we start another rumor, NO I AM NOT DOING PAIRS or DANCE!!! I work solo, folks!!! )

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11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

You did better than ME at interp! ALL the judges hated my interp!!! And yes, I was flattered how many people approached me afterwards about my interp program and commented on the big hair and heavy makeup how I was "virutally unrecognizable" from when I was just walking around the rinks. Yup! Passed that test too! (My test for whether I have on enough makeup was if I either look like a hooker or a drag queen...)

DRATS! I wished I had shared the champagne with you after the interp event! I was pretty down on myself after the interp event too. I totally missed the Champ Ladies event b/c I just wanted to get all that makeup and hair off and just go back to my cabin to not lug my skates and my hair stuff around for the interp event.

And thank you SO MUCH for that bottle of champagne, Mel!!! If you guys watch the end of my interp program on icenetwork (and assuming they didn't edit out the clip) you'll get to see my reaction to that.

(Fair warning to Terri C: You are NEXT on the champagne handoff!!! )

The consolation was that (besides that BIG wonderful bottle of champagne that Mel handed me ) on that is that I got quite a few good action shots for that number. My technical photos were kinda sucky though, which is sad b/c I wanted some good shots of me in the 80 rink.

And I bought another consolation prize in that mix -- I spotted a beautiful (purple of course!!!) Frieda B dress that will be custom made for me and it's gorgeous! And what sold me on it is that while I was trying it on, SEVERAL passer byers saw me in the dress and said "That looks GREAT or gorgeous on you!!!" (And Thin-Ice gave me some tips on how to alter that dress and stuff so thank you!!! )

It will be used in a future program (don't know what but it will either be a technical dress or a interp number) and I gave myself an out on the EWF number if I decide to scrap it.

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Thanks. I just need to make them faster. But, don't we all.

Rob

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2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
2009 Adult Nationals - competing with a cold is not much fun.
2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!

Hi NoVa, Larry here

As a colleague in pair skating, I totally agree with all you have said about the warm-up ice, the practice ice and all else, especially the safety concerns. I had a NEGATIVE experience skating this year because of the late night/early AM practices, the crappy ice quality (watch me in competition! I hit a rut going into sbs combo jumps and did no jumps at all due to bad ice) and they broke the 'no-early' rule for my event which rushed me out onto the ice before I could complete my preparations. It was no fun at all. I had a happy time at the event, however, but skating it was no fun this time around.

In any event, the only thing I would add to this terrific post is saying the same things NoVa has said, only in ALL CAPS!!!!!!!

Cheers!

Larry

I really enjoyed my first AN experience. I didn't skate as well as I would have liked, but I was pleased with the placement, considering my noticeable errors. I got very intimidated by the whole thing and I didn't care for the 1980 rink ice. Though it was awesome to skate on Olympic ice and on the big AN logo. Loved the twenty minute warm-up. I've never gotten one of those before and it was fabulous. I preferred the USA rink ice too!

It was great to see people that I've skated with at local events, some old coaches and to meet some new people.

Can't wait to go again, I may even consider flying to get there. This is a big hurdle for me....plane phobia.

"I don't disagree with you on your points of ice cuts for pairs, and some other points, but this one i have to address:
You don't HAVE to do those late-night practice sessions if you're competing early the next day. You CHOOSE to."

-----Whatever, ManleyWoman - it was either take that ice or not skate AT ALL for two or 3 DAYS before we competed. We had no other choices, and there are no local rinks to go to in Lake Placid for alternatives.

"Andrea fell, and obviously that's terrible. However, that WU was smack in the middle of the day . . . optimal time for Pairs, as I have understood from all those who complain about Pairs being scheduled too early or too late. So it was an unfortunate accident, yes, but you can hardly blame the time of day for it, nor did any of the other items you listed have anything to do with it. They had a bad entry on a lift. It happens."

-----Whatever again, ManleyWoman - your sympathy is overwhelming , but there were 9 teams on un-Zammed ice. It was a great stress for them you can't understand unless you are a pair skater. 9 teams seems too crowded and the risk of injury goes WAY UP. It is simply more dangerous and maybe his 'bad entry' was from being in such a crowded environment on poor ice taking a different path than usual into a rough area. We don't know for sure and should not make guesses regarding Lee and Andrea's experience. Let's defer comments until we hear from them directly.

"(and no, I wasn't there, but have several friends in Pairs who all were there and said the ice was fine. It was a bad lift entry. Happens to the Olympic Champs too.)"

-----Whatever again, ManleyWoman - the team you and I know the best on that ice does NO LIFTS at all - so they have no experience as a team with doing overheads in an over-crowded 20-minute warm up or even competition. Again, we can't take their word for it, and the ultimate source of information about the lift experience would come directly from Lee and Andrea.

I believe you should defer your rationalizations regarding our pair skating experiences at the competition to us - those pair skaters who competed there.

My experiences in pair skating at Ann Arbor (2003), Dallas (2006) and Bensenville (2007) were NOTHING like this. All the pair teams were at a disadvantage this year and really, not given the best opportunities to do their best at this competition. It's not really an opinion, it is a fact, because you know last year was better than what is described here, as the feedback you received was mostly positive from the pair skaters, with the exception of one event being scheduled before 8 am last year. There was practice ice, reasonable practice times and a variety of rinks to use as an alternative if necessary. None of that was true this year at Lake Placid.

So many other things happened not worth going into fully here that show the LOC of this competition did many things without foresight. Denny Allen even remarked to me, and he was in charge of practices, that he "forgot about the pairs," and "didn't think we needed practice ice." They simply tacked on the practices at the end of the day without realizing we were to be preparing/competing 9 hours later in the early morning, official warm-ups begining at 7 am. What's more, they even forgot to schedule Championship Pairs on the tentative schedule initially. This "forgetting" is indefensible. Period. "Forgetting" to schedule a Championship event and "forgetting" pairs need quality practice ice and reasonable times as singles skaters do is a major snafu and FUBAR.

The Bensenville LOC didn't make these errors, why did it happen this year? Because they did not do as vigilant and quality a job as you did last year!

Do you understand more now? Is it all clear? Any comparison to singles skaters or singles skating experience is a non-sequeter, as this is an entirely different discipline. NoVa's comments and my agreement with them appear to be more than reasonable and valid.

Cheers!

Larry

A friend of mine told me about this picture of me on icenetwork.

http://web.icenetwork.com/gen/photog...1/cf47454.html

(I'm the guy pulling the MacAuley Caulkin-esque pose five pictures from the left in the Robin Hood get-up)

Ok. So a few of the other Championship Gold men and I, from the second warm-up, were standing in the tunnel about to take the ice for warm-up talking about how we felt about our scores and placements being announced to the audience after our skates. We all pretty much agreed that we didn't care so much about having our own scores announced after our skates but a few of us weren't so sure we wanted to know how the person who skated just prior to each of us did. So as we were having this conversation, the scores for the final skater from the first warm-up were announced. So a couple of us put our hands over our ears and started to go "La, la, la, we can't hear you!!" like a bunch of second graders sort of as an inside joke between ourselves. We got our chuckle and proceeded to warm-up. When it was my turn to skate, as I was skating around prior to my program I skated up to my coach and, once again, as the scores were being read, I winked over at my coach and proceeded to put my hands over my ears and started up again with the "la, la, la..." We got our laugh and that was that. I had no idea the picture was even taken! LOL!! Oh well.

In any case, it was nice meeting jazzpants and I met herniated as well. I ran into quite a few folks from skatingforums. All in all, I had a great time. Had I maintained verticality during my warm-up and my skate it would have been better but all in all I'm not going to get down about anything. Last year at Adult Nationals, I got dinged for toe-axeling. This year I got credit for a double toe, albeit landed messily. I'd like to think that the work I put in fixing my take-off paid off and not that this technical specialist was being nice. lol Despite going splat on my second double sal, I got credit for that one and the first on in the program as well. So basically, this year I got credit for two more double jumps than last year. I also got two level 2 elements called. I was happy about that one! Although the technical side of the sport means a lot to me, I know I've got a lot of work to do on my basic skating and my connection to my music and presenting to the audience. I got some nice feedback from one of the judges on my panel regarding PCS and I hope to keep that in mind as I work on new programs for next year.

I think I spoke to mostly everyone in my group but if I missed anyone then a hearty congratulations to all. Ross, you have always had my utmost respect but even moreso now. To come into this event like you did and skate as you did is really inspiring. To everyone else, at this year's Adult nationals, congratulations as well. I enjoyed watching so many of the other events. It was a pleasure to watch everyone.

Frank

Larry: And as I said earlier (and you quoted) I agree with a lot of what NoVa said.

But I don't agree with the late-night practice ice complaint. If you have an event early the next day, it is your individual choice as to whether or not you want to take that practice ice. Your body, your call. And if you made that choice, fine. Pairs are not the only ones who have to make the choice between taking the practice ice or not skating for 3 days. That happens to many skaters, Pairs or not. Don't act that like that's a particular issue just for Pairs teams! I once had an event (not practice, an EVENT) at 10:30 pm one night, and another one at 9:00 am the next morning. Happens to all of us at some point!

I come from a perspective as having actually run an ANs. The majority of people have not actually done this, yourself included. It is quite a balancing act making everyone happy, between competitors, officials, rink, USFS and vendors. I find it incredible when I hear all these complaints about scheduling, whether it's events or practice ice. Not everything is within our control. It just isn't. We do the best we can, and certainly don't go out of our way to make people unhappy! We want happy people! But if there's a practice ice that's simply too late for you, then just don't do it. Chicago bent over backwards to avoid scheduling problems. LP wasn't as vigilant. And it's very possible that the next LOC won't be vigilant either! It sucks, but I feel that someone can either take it with a grain of salt and just be happy to be competing (which many people can't do) or complain about it. Pick your poison.

One of NoVa's comments . . . and comments you yourself have discussed elsewhere on this board . . . addressed the fact that Pairs have a harder time practicing early in the morning. THAT was what i was addressing in regards to Andrea. I was simply pointing out that that time of day wasn't the case here. The WU was in the middle of the day, optimal time for anyone, Pairs or not. So I was clarifying that time of day had had nothing to do with her falling, which NoVa's original post didn't clarify. Accidents can happen at any time of day, as we all know and have probably experienced.

I do agree that there should be an ice cut between Champ Masters Men and Champ Masters Pairs. That's just plain common sense. Glad they took care of it.

9 Pairs on an official WU shouldn't have happened, and I've already spoken with TPTB about it. But Kim Sailer while 9 teams were ASSIGNED to that ice, only 4-5 teams actually showed. So it was perfectly negotiable.

You forget that I am friends with many many pairs team, all of whom do lifts (with the exception of Jenny/Ray). And they do have experience doing lifts on crowded sessions, with kids doing triples every which way. I've been on the ice with them and those kids at the same time. Does it suck? Absolutely! And they told me that the ice was crowded, yes, but it was fine and they were able to do what they needed. So I'll take their word for it. I also know other pairs who said it wasn't, and like I said earlier, everyone has a comfort level. Some people can skate on bad ice, others aren't comfortable doing it. NoVa didn't like the ice, but Kim said it was fine.

And yes, I'm extremely sympathetic to Andrea. That's a horrible thing to have happen and I'm glad she's okay. I was just saying time of day wasn't the culprit, as you yourself have discussed just a few weeks ago.

As for the overall scheduling conflicts, I agree that it sucks. But that's LP for you. They don't run like a regular LOC. They are their own entity. But as one of the other skaters said to me, the ice quality was the same for everyone, If it was bad and uncut, it was uncut for the whole group.

(And FWIW, I would love to do Pairs, but partners are hard to come by!)

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I wanted to thank you all.

My interp (PT Barnum) went quite well this year and I placed second.
However for all of you that stood and applauded I thank you for your support.
Im my opinion you where my judges and your applause made me feel like I had won.. It was worth it...
Thanks

Alison, I mostly agree with you, and yes, my comments need to be clarified! But first, I cannot underscore how well Chicago was last year. Kudos to you and your other coworkers. That's right, you and other adult skaters ran AN. But ORDA is not run by adult competitive skaters, and they do not exactly follow USFSA rules (USFSA explicity has a rule stating how many pair teams--and dancers and singles skaters, of course--are allowed on any warmup/official practice session AND that the official warmups MUST be given on the competition rink). And while there were many volunteers, ORDA has paid staff members who performed many functions. At one point, one told me that she just wanted to go home and not help anyone else with practice ice. (Huh? Sorry to be a burden to you, missy!)
Also, you were magically able to group the practice ice by level (i.e., not allowing master and bronze level skaters on the ice) as I recall.

My comments on the pairs snafus were not meant to be singular examples but to form a collective gestalt of what could be better organized/managed in the future. I relaly do not care about skating at midnight and then competing at 5am (I'm 32 and used to live on 4 hours of sleep during college/grad school). This needs to be put in proper context with what Larry said about pairs being an afterthought. In fact, nearly all of the pairs practices were late night.
I would hardly call pointing out several serious safety issues "complaining." Too bad that's how you really feel about it.
Sorry, this is just incorrect. There were 7.5 or 8.5 pair teams on the warmup (Jason was skating his champ. master men event at the same time and I cannot recall if Kim&David were even out there).
Yes, agreed! (But having uncut ice for everyone does not excuse it.)

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Flo, I stand by my post about what the teams were doing the last time the event was held in 2004 at Lake Placid. (I was speaking in context of 2004 because, in ORDA's eyes, that is what they last saw of adult pair skating.) Here is the list of competitors. Lynn and Chris only did half lifts, as did many of the adult track teams. I recently watched the video from the 2004 event, and what few overhead lifts that were done that year did not have the ice coverage and speed of what we saw this year.

With speed and ice coverage and difficulty comes risk, though. And my point was that this year’s pairs event looked very different, and so what the LOC had to accommodate/account for in terms of practice ice needs this time as compared to the last time the event was in Lake Placid, it was very different. Not only were there more teams (how many total in 2004 from adult/masters vs. bronze-masters/champ. this time, 9 in 2004 vs more than double in 2008?), but the level of difficulty was definitely higher. Multiple teams did back press lifts, one-arm star/platter lifts, lifts with three-second carries, throw axels and throw doubles, sbs doubles. The top three teams in Championship Pairs had as part of the team a former “standard track nationals” competitor in pairs! Craig J in senior pairs, Will Abel in senior pairs, Ray Belmonte in junior pairs. And all the other folks on or near the podium have pretty advanced singles backgrounds, too. Judy had qualified in Champ. Gold ladies before; Jenny, Jason, and Joy all current or former Champ. Masters singles competitors at Nationals; and Choeleen, a former senior lady. Kim S also is a former Champ. Masters ladies qualifier, and Tara in Champ Gold Ladies and three-time gold pairs champ. These are all fast, strong skaters.

I am not trying to diminish your accomplishments (which run deep in pairs, singles, and interp!) from back when you competed in pairs, Flo, but a lot of people were talking about how high the quality of pairs competition has gotten, and I think if you review the old videos and compare to today you’ll find this is true (even last year, I would never have dreamed that I would be doing group 3 and 4 lifts--plattr and press--as I only did group 1 lifts last year!).

And my point is that higher quality and higher difficulty equals much more risk, and that risk needs to be catered to more effectively. The last time the event was in LP, there was no Champ. Pair event; there were only two masters teams, so there was no issue relating to having nine teams in a Championship Round warming up on one surface. This is now an issue. Add to that the amount of speed the skaters are now carrying into this risky elements, and it compounds the risk of having so many teams on the ice at once. When the teams were doing less and doing it with less speed, perhaps it wasn’t as big of a deal. But as more former standard-track competitors and high-level adult singles skaters are coming into the fray, the issues that organizer of standard track pairs events face now come to the fore, and you’d never dream of having 9 novice pairs teams on the ice at once at a standard track event, would you?

Exactly. I saw the fall happen in front of me, and I am still shaken by it. I can only imagine how A&L feel!

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My fav moments:

3. Jason Spicer counting out three seconds' worth of spiral for the judges in his freeskate, then giving the audience that priceless "look".

2. Tiffany Wright's "Charlie Chaplin" routine (Masters Ladies LE/C B).

1. The audience applauding and throwing gifts onto the ice for the sweepers after Championship Ladies -- classy!

Yeah, I have yet to solve the interp "mystery."

Jazz, and any others, you may be starting your champagne shopping as early as NEXT MONTH!! I will be retaking my Bronze free then. I did a exhibition at the rink on Satuday and it was the strongest version of Jumpin Jack Flash that I have ever skated!

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Yes, this is a prickly topic for me because as partner and I were doing pair Y-spirals (into the back inside death spiral), a dance team cut us off, and I let go of tara on the death spiral entrance. She went slamming into the ice and thankfully she fell on her good hip, otherwise we would have been finished right then and there!

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Ack, I needed major 'nippage' () after that skate/day/week!!!

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It is had to pass up practice ice, but I've done it when I've felt it's not in my best interest. I do well understand the needs of pair skaters and all skaters for that matter. There is a great potential for injuries all around, and if you don't think so, ask Connie. I also realize there are 600 competitors to attempt to accomodate. At other events when I want "at home" practice conditions, I stay home until the day before.

The pairs warm ups in Lake Placid have a history of being crowded. At the first one with 8 pairs I said something to the then person in charge, Karen Courtland. Her reply was, "Oh well, It's a big rink".

I thought the max was 6 pairs on a practice.

Nova - anyone cutting off a death spiral deserves a smack on the nose with rolled up newspaper.

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Hi

There are certain things you are attributing to me that I discussed in a general way in prior threads to gather people's thoughts on the matter that are not entirely true. My own personal preferences for the time of day I prefer to skate are not stated. I stated that all of my serious injuries, and I have had them, were in the morning. I personally skate in practice at 6:45am 3 times a week, so early morning has never been a personal complaint of mine. However, you must admit the scheduling of the ice cuts, practice ice and the like at this event wasn't up to snuff for a 3 surface facility with no surrounding alternatives like other venue cities. I just compare it to your work, and it pales in comparison.

I brought up for discussion that several other pair teams do object publicly about skating early and site safety concerns. I wanted people's views of the safety concerns they raised publicly. There was little input regarding the safety concerns, but there was a discussion and debate and a lot of venting about bad personal experiences. I felt the concerns to be valid. I'm split down the middle about it because I do feel you can always be prepared for whatever schedule if you know what it is. It is the ultimate choice of the skater(s).

And yes, I did forget for a minute in my prior note that of course you are friends and familiar with most of the skaters too. I will apologize sincerely for that here and only claim too much emotion as the cause. Andrea, Lee and I are close and she called for me from the ice. It was painful to experience it so up close with such a good friend. So I ask your forgiveness for getting snippy. I never like carrying my friends into ambulances when they are hurt, frightened and suffering.

My point here is that it is always the stated goal that whatever LOC is awarded the bid is to provide to the best of their ability the best opportunity possible and safest environment for the skaters to perform. The way things were done were not up to the quality of your work, Allison, or the work they themselves did previously 3 times.

It simply was inferior to what you and other have done when entrusted with that bid. The details now are up for discussion, and that is always a good thing. I remember the Illinois Counsel taking notes the year before and being intensely prepared. Other venues have also done it very well (I have been at 11 ANs now). I suggest the next LOC be as intensely prepared and patient as others have demonstrated, your work included.

Cheers!

Larry

The one thing the sweepers could not pick up was the nips since the girls were under age.

It was a great week...I never watched so much skating in my life and when I close my eyes I still see skaters whirling around the ice.

There are rumours that there is going to be a figures competition in June of 2009 in Portland, ME...I better get my scribe oiled!

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