I don't really know any adult skaters, but I'd like to point out there's plenty of kids (even ones doing triples, sadly) who look awfully hesitant on the ice. They'll do the jumps, but then they won't even be able to do correct crossovers, they trip all over themselves, don't point their feet, it's horrible. I see a lot of those, actually.

So it's not an adult thing. It's just a....bothering to learn how to SKATE thing. A lot of people don't bother. And some people just aren't meant to be on the ice, it's not like everyone's got it in them to do it effortlessly. Some people feel at home on certain surfaces, and alienated on another. For example, I've known how to swim my whole life, but I still feel like a drowning dog in a swimming pool. I'm not at ease in water. But I feel more at home on the ice than I do on concrete.

Another thing that I'm sure affects the "look" of older skaters is fear. You're more afraid to fall when you're older. When you learn as a kid you aren't afraid to fall, and by the time you are older you know that falling ISN'T a big deal, so you aren't ever afraid. Plus, if you've skated all your life, you've got so many injuries and chronic ailments by the time you're an adult that even if you fall it really won't make a difference to your daily pain level, so why bother being afraid? Heh.

This is poor teaching, and something to be addressed by the coach. The best teachers don't let them get away with it! And the older ones suck their teeth and complain about the demise of figures.

I think I find this very slightly offensive - it sounds as though you are saying that people who can't skate, or who are never going to be any good, shouldn't be on the ice? Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more - skating is not just about being an elite skater. It's about fun and exercise and challenging yourself to do better, to get off the bottom, to finish ahead of a rival.... or simply about fun and exercise! Not everybody even wants to test or compete, although they might well want to skate as well as they possibly can.

A broken bone, for an adult, could be a great deal more serious than for a child, if only because it would result in loss of earnings, time off work, and might even (depending on the age of that adult) mean permanent loss of mobility. And a fall that a child would bounce back from might well mean a serious injury for an adult.

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I see too many "kids" on the ice just doing jumps and spins....rarely ever working on edges, 3-turns, crossovers, etc. which are the foundation of everything. This is a big problem and may be a contributing factor on why they look so alien on the ice. They have never mastered the basics.

As far as the "fear factor" I've seen and know adults who are terrified of falling so much, they never leave the wall! Yes, they are on the ice, but if they never leave the wall they will never advance. I used to be one of them. I finally left the wall (padded up and scared to death, but I didn't die). I've taken some nasty falls, but nothing broke (so far). I also visit my chiropractor a lot Sometimes you will fall on challenging moves. There may be the fall that seriously injures you-you have to take that into account. I work a part-time job and my husband earns the $$$. I can go on convalescent leave with no pay. That's my backup plan. That's life in the skating world.

But the worst thing I have seen are the skaters who have lost "it"-the love and joy of the sport. They go through the motions and skate like robots without feeling. That makes me sad.

__________________
Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I totally agree with everything Annabel has said. A broken bone for an adult IS a big deal when for a child it doesn't matter so much. Having just got over a broken wrist and having broken my ankle five years ago, I only know too well. I don't work but my husband runs his own business, and he had to reduce his working hours in order to run the kids to and from school. This meant his income was reduced. I therefore may look a bit fearful about falling because right now it's the last thing I want to do! Fortunately I have the full support of my husband to return to skating and we both accept that accidents can happen.

As for some people not being natural on the ice - I would say a lot of skaters both adult and child, aren't natural. Skating isn't natural after all! My daughter has been diagnosed with dyspraxia so while she enjoys skating, she isn't a natural as she has major balance and co-ordination issues. However she works to the best of her own ability and is landing lutz-loop in her programme so I don't see any reason why she shouldn't be on the ice just because she's not an elite skater and never will be. The skating is doing wonders for her dyspraxia and is a lot more fun than the designated balancing and co-ordination based exercises given by the medics!

Nicki

Perfectly stated!

Another thing that contributes to the "look" is knee bend. A taller adult may bend their knees as much as a 4'8" kid but it doesn't look that way because of the proportion!

The most important thing is for people to do what makes them happy!

I'm going to come to Stardust's defense here, because I don't think she meant to be offensive, and I do understand where she is coming from.

As most of you know, I'm an adult who skated as a kid. Falls don't matter too much to me -- and I've had some doozies. However, you should see the reactions of adults who don't know me (and even some who do). They're horrified that I'll take those kinds of falls, and amazed that I'll get right back up. To be totally honest, I never even think about breaking a bone or getting seriously injured when I skate. I know that others do, and that's ok. If it happens to me, I'll deal with it.

As for the not bothering to learn proper technique, I think that may be more of a kid thing than an adult thing. All of the adults I know definitely have the desire to learn proper technique. Now some of them won't completely get all aspects of skating, just like I will never get how to draw a horse (something I've always wanted to do). I tried and tried as a kid, using books and asking my art teacher to help me. I simply do not have the ability to make my horse look like a real horse. It completely amazes me when I see people who can draw. Some people, adults or kids, simply will not have the ability to do smooth, deep crossovers. Does that mean they should stop skating? Absolutely not. Should they accept their limitations and be proud of what they can do? Absolutely. Hey, I can draw a fairly decent dog and cat caricature, and a Kilroy, and a Christmas tree -- so when I draw that's what I draw!

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

When I was working on something new, I fell continuously. Now that I skate less, I still take my share of falls. However, I used to skate a session w/ a lot of other adults. Their reaction to my wipeouts was surprising to me. Adults came up to me after every collapse asking if I was okay. I know they were concerned, and I was probably taking nasty falls, but they looked worse than they were. I always popped right back up and kept going. But it sure did get tiresome to keep assuring ppl, "Yes, I'm okay. This is just part of skating". IMO, I doubt these particular adult skaters had ever seen an adult skating so hard and trying advanced moves.

Kay

__________________
Visit my figure skating journal
http://www.skatejournal.com/

That's not what I mean at all. What I meant is that every person has some things that come naturally to them, and other things don't. So while, say, Michelle Kwan, probably had ice skating come naturally for her, some of the people who look uncomfortable on the ice after ten years of practice probably don't have that natural ability- it probably lies somewhere else, and anything they do on the ice is a product of hard work, with no help from their genes.

I'm not at all saying you shouldn't be on the ice (or anywhere else..) if it doesn't come naturally to you, I'm just saying that while some of the problem is poor coaching, and while some of the problem is impatience (of the kid, the parent, the coach, everyone really..) that sometimes, and this isn't ever really considered into all these discussions, sometimes the problem is just that a particular person wasn't born to do this, it isn't naturally in them, and anything they are going to do in ice skating will be a real struggle and a real challenge, and that they probably never will look as comfortable as someone who does have the "calling" to be out there, and that there really isn't much that could be dne about it, and that it isn't anyone's fault at that point. I think it's a bummer to blame the skater or blame the coach when sometimes it just isn't something that can be helped.

As I said, there are things I've learned how to do for years, and I still feel like they're just not my territory. I learned an axel in a week, and most of my doubles were clean a few months after that. Double axel didn't take me a year or two years like most of the other kids. My coach has kids who STILL can't land a double axel after two years- so it's not just that I had an amazing coach (which I did), it's just that I had a little help in my genetic make up. Now, if I tried to, say, play the clarinet, I could probably be at it for ten years and never learn a single piece of music correctly, no matter how great my teacher is, cause I'm just not good at woodwinds (and I did try..so I know, haha). But what I'm saying is that you cannot be good at everything. Obviously, if someone likes something, they should keep doing it and keep trying to improve, but for some people, complete ease on the ice just isn't in the cards, for any given reason, and there's little that can be done to create it. It doesn't mean you should quit, NOT AT ALL, just that you should accept that it is what it is, and enjoy the skating without worrying so much about that "appearance".

As a side note, I had never thought about how injury could keep an adult from working. You are very right about that. That does put an added dimension on the "fear" factor some adults have that I had never considered before. Thanks for pointing it out.

Oh, okay, fair enough!

But why is it a problem? Surely, it's only a problem for those who really want to be elite skaters - for the rest, it's just part of the challenge that skating provides. And, as Nicki said, it can be a real help to some people with learning or other difficulties. Some rinks here have a "SkateAbility" programme for those children, and I've seen a group of skaters with those sorts of issues do a wonderful exhibition for an adult audience. Okay, so objectively they were pants, but they were out there, they did their best, they had fun, and in my book, that makes them champions!

And adults are more likely to hurt themselves badly in a fall, too, alas.

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Kay, I know exactly the reaction of which you speak....from other adults, particulary on the "adult session". Of these particular adults, I noticed that they are in the group of those who never seem to fall. Not that I enjoy falling, but I find that there's almost something missing if I'm NOT falling---when pushing to learn new skills. I agree that falling is just part of skating. That said, one always hopes that friends, or oneself, does not become seriously injured from same! Janet

I agree, there are exceptions in the adult onset skater set. Like the woman who visited our rink, who was a former ballerina. Well, let's say her body movement was definitely not that of the typical adult skater. And, she was 58!!!! On the one hand, this tells me never to lose hope. It can be done, without having skated as a child (oh, sure, years and years of ballet training might help <smirk>).

A coach told me once that determination and perseverance could carry one further in skating than talent, or anything else. I believe her.

Janet

OK my 2 cents

The 'adult skater' look IMO is basically about lack of flow, speed and mostly knee bend. The later you start skating the more 'ingrained bad bodily habits' (and various injuries) you have to overcome. Kids learn much more naturally - almost anything is easier learned as a child as the good habits become ingrained.

Those adults who start as adults and manage to overcome the 'adult skater' look often tend to have been dancers or roller skaters or gymnasts when younger (yes there are exceptions and those I'd put in the 'naturally talented' section). Very few people, kids or adults, are naturally talented as skaters but it's easier for the kids to overcome any lack of talent by hard work and perseverence.

I've worked hard to try to overcome the 'adult skater' look and interestingly have been told that I had better flow and knee bend etc when competing in an 'improvisation' competition than when competing my programme and there's probably something in the fact that adults tend to 'overthink' their skating rather than losing themselves in the ice and the music.

I do think that sometimes some coaches (not mine) fail to take adult skaters very seriously and dont push their adult pupils to improve the way they would the kids.

I started at the same time as my kids and if anything I take it more seriously than they do. My son in particular has a sickening amount of natural talent but is just not interested enough to practice, although he enjoys his lessons. Still, he is at level 5 (UK), whereas I am at level 1. He has 1 or occasionally 2 half hour lessons a week and no practice. I have 2 half hour lessons and practice 4 or 5 hours. My daughter also started the same time but is not as naturally talented on the ice. She has still reached level 4 and close to level 5. I will never be able to look as good on the ice as either of them. My main problem is knee bend rather than speed - I love speed - but my knees just don't like to bend and as you get older your flexibility does decrease so it's harder and harder to achieve the desired result. I will keep trying though.

__________________
'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

Welcome - nice to have yet another Aussie!! Have you seen Aussie Willy's site just for Australian skating? Australian Skating Forums

One of the coaches at a local rink describes that look as "skating with an adult accent". He compares learning to skate as an adult (when your movement patterns are already laid down from years of practice) to learning a second language as an adult (when you have years of practice hearing and pronouncing the tones and rhythm of your native language). Most people who learn another language as an adult always have traces of their first language pop up in the other language.

He says both can be overcome, but it is usually easier to learn new movements/languages as a child -- and mistakes are more easily forgiven by the general population when committed by children.

But he has had several skaters who start as adults overcome this because he drilled them on basic edges, knee bend, speed, etc. during every lesson and insisted they practice all of those things every time they skate. (Most of his students are REALLY good at figures!) His adult skaters have done very well and I believe he knows what he is talking about since he has seen quite a bit of the sport... he was US Champion during the 1940s.

I have been reading this thread and thinking very hard about how to articulate in words what is different about people who started as adult vs. started as kids. I feel like the Supreme Court justice who said, "I can't tell you what pornography is, but I know it when I see it!"

I have some video of adult-onset skaters, and kid-onset skaters, so I went back and watched them carefully side by side. Where I could tell the difference the most was on crossovers and stroking. The AO skaters were weaker at pushing with their whole blade, did not complete or hold the second part of the cross over where the legs are actually crossed, and there was a marked hesitancy in the steps.

For example, on forward XOs, instead of the free foot tucking behind while on the FI edge, it stayed towards the side and had slight toe pushes. On backwards XOs, the free leg does not push fully backwards. The feet always stayed too close instead of really pushing away from each other for power and speed. It's so basic, but it really does reflect in every single element a skater performs. I think the remedy to this is dance lessons - or at the very least, a good coach for stroking lessons.

I wonder - is it our backs and shoulders? I know I suffer from serious lack of flexibility in my upper body, and so does my husband (at least we match!). Here in the UK, we have a very popular television programme called Strictly Come Dancing where so-called "celebrities" are paired up with professional ballroom & Latin dancers and have to compete. Very often - all too often - the celebs look like "adult skaters" while on the dance floor, and we've come to the conclusion that it's something to do with their backs and shoulders. The athletes and pop stars - and those actors who did dance training at stage school - tend to do better than the newsreaders and cooks!

What I don't know is exactly what it is about their backs and shoulders... I can see it, but can't describe it, nor can I correct it in myself!

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

OOh I can definitely relate to that - my chiropractor said my lower back had all the flexibility of an 80 year old! Yes, that's 'eight, zero'. Doesn't help the old skating much (nor does the minor slipped disc and seized up sacro-illiac joint, intermittent 'frozen shoulder', damaged knee cartilage from old skiing accident etc. - but hey, that's what you have to deal with as an adult)

I was also reminded by Vesperholly's post of what a coach once said to me about adult skaters. She reckoned you could always tell a 'learned as an adult' skater, as they never rolled their ankles over for the under push in crossovers. Needless to say it's something I've been trying to correct in myself ever since. And the reasons why adults don't do it - well I think it's related to all the reasons people have given above - eg having to overcome ingrained body movement patterns, fear (of catching an edge, or falling whatever), lack of time available to practice, coaches not willing to push adult skaters as hard. There are lots of factors.

__________________
'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

Not that kids don't get bored, but I have known many adult skaters who get so bored w/ basics that they become very frustrated and want to move on. I fell into this category early in my skating too. Since adults are "skating for fun" (and so are most kids!), they simply move on w/o mastering a move. Some of this is normal. Moves are taught together and ppl learn them simultaneously. I don't recommend beating a skill to death, but an adult should not forget basics in favor of jumps.

Myself, I was so used to skating crowded sessions, when I finally got to an empty rink, I realized I had no idea how to cover the ice. I had always spun/jumped in the middle. I had never bothered to learn to skate powerfully around the rink or do any sort of MITF. And no one bothered to push me.

I have seen some cases that are very extreme. One adult I knew could barely do xovers. She scratched her toe picks on every stroke. A coach put her in a harness to try an axel. No, her other jumps were not good either. She skated like a kid in basic skills grp lessons. She was bored, she was paying good $, and the coach entertained her fantasy.

Kay

__________________
Visit my figure skating journal
http://www.skatejournal.com/

This is such an interesting thread. I agree with many of the reasons people have given for why an adult onset skater looks the way he/she does on the ice. I've been skating for 12 years, started at age 41, and have been in private lessons most of that time. I am still improving and learning new tricks. When I see myself on videotape, and other adults, I notice how my arms are rather stiff. I need to learn some of those ballet arm movements and how to coordinate them with stroking. The comments on stroking, above, are right on too. I have been working lately on getting that cross-under of the free foot during cross-overs. It looks better and it generates power to do it correctly. My knees don't bend as much as they could - and that gives me a look of having my weight slightly forward when skating. I notice this look a lot in adult onset skaters. Anyway, I don't know WHY all this is the case for many adult skaters, but I think we can recognize what is happening and try to correct it. I am trying...

I don't think it's a problem at all. The people who think it is a problem are the people who overanalyze themselves and try to beat the "adult skater" look out of themselves. I was just trying to share my opinion on why they might look that way and why it might be a waste of their energy to try and rid themselves of it, when they could just accept it and let it go. I clearly didn't articulate that properly, but it was still my point. Move on and make the best of it, is what I say.

Thanks for the link Annabel, it's lovely to be able to watch my favourites over again, but I have changed my mind about Colin after hearing the way he spoke to Erin tonight, maybe it was tongue in cheek but I didnt like it, so come on Bill for the oldies or Zoe for the younger ones.

Oops sorry I forgot this is a skating forum, but couldnt resist. As for looking like an adult skater, count me in, but there is nothing I or anyone else can do about it so I may as well just enjoy.

Cheers
Grace

just to let you know Starskate is an Aussie too.. g-day

Thanks Tessie.. I live to watch anyone who has a love for the sport. It realy shows on the ice...

I totally agree! Whether it's the "old dog learning new tricks" syndrome or whether most adults just don't follow the same step-by-step training that most of the kids do, the point is that each component of the "awkward look" can be identified and corrected. We can learn and practice arm positions and we can work on actively bending deeper, pulling harder on those under-strokes and arching our backs. These are all very do-able things if we get them broken down for us. I'm working on these exact things as well!