The announcement and entry form for the 7th installment of this annual all adult competition is up at http://users.erols.com/wfsc/. Entry deadline is December 5, 2007. The dates of the competition are January 12 & 13, 2008, a little earlier than usual. It's really a great competition, and the club does a fine job of putting it on. If you haven't been, you should give it a try.

I've been to this comp for the past 4 years and I agree that it's a great comp. Unfortunately, after looking at the announcement, there's no way I'll be competing this year. I'm currently spending most of my practice time on MIF, trying to pass Silver, one of these years - lol, so I wasn't planning to compete FS. But I thought I might do CM, Spins, and/or MIF, and of course hang out and cheer everyone on. But after reading the elements selected, there's no way I'm going to do those events.

Perhaps I should e-mail these comments to Tim Fisher (does he read this board?). I don't know who's choosing the required elements for these events, but whoever it is doesn't seem to know much about the test requirements (and general comp standard) for each level. A broken leg spin in Bronze Spins (not to mention a camel-to-other-position)? A camel spin in Bronze CM, plus forward power pulls? (BTW, does the new sequence rule apply to the jump sequence, b/c if so then some of the sequences they list as examples (plus others) wouldn't be allowed) And then for Bronze MIF, they selected the alt 3's and cross strokes - which Bronze test are they (or ever been) on? For Silver MIF, they chose the 8-step and FO-BI 3's, which are both fair game, since they're on the Silver test, but they happen to be what most people consider the toughest moves (they sure are for me). WTH?!

It's a shame that they couldn't make these events more competitor-friendly. Yes, I know it's important to be challenged, yada, yada, yada, but these are throw-away events for most people, and at pretty much every other comp I've competed in or watched, the elements for these types of events are kept as close as possible to the test standard (aka min requiements for the level) to encourage people to enter. After all, they are an easy way for the committee/club to make money, and they also provide an opportunity for those who are 'test level skaters' (like me) to compete in an event and not feel overmatched.

Grrr.

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SK8RX, thanks for posting the info and for mentioning the entry deadline and comp dates. I would not have otherwise been thinking to be on the lookout for the announcement and probably would have missed the deadline!

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This comes up every year, especially with the spin events. I agree, and that's why I've never done a spin event at NYAI. I've done compulsory moves because those aren't too out of reach, but spins? No way!

It seems to me that the MITF events are likely to attract entrants who are working on those moves for testing, skating up to the next level, and therefore it makes sense just to include the test moves for the named level.

For spins and compulsory moves, on the other hand, they might attract some skaters who are skating up, but also skaters competing at test level who either can't perform a whole program for one reason or another or who want to try out some elements that won't fit into their programs including for reasons of stamina but that they will want to have mastered before moving up to the next level or that just provide variety and a reasonable challenge at this level.

I haven't been able to do sitspins this year because of a knee injury, so I think I may only enter the silver moves event this year, unless I can actually get my program together (and adjust my combination spin).


What would be some other appropriate spins for future years? How about the following?

Bronze:
choice of sitspin or upright spin with one change of foot
combination spin with one change of position (change of foot optional)
upright spin with two different variations

Silver:
spin in one position with at least one change foot
choice of back camel or back sit
choice of flying camel or flying sit

Gold:
spin in any position with a change of edge

Other suggestions?

I like the spin choices for gold. I have to come up with an open spin, it's usually the camel-jump camel back sit.

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That's Washington FSC! They want to push people to do harder elements. Unfortunately, most adults want to compete moves or elements that are on their level not above. Some people have gone to the comp organizers but they are set on keeping this type of format.

Now the same type of thing happens when we WFSC members go through tests....I really feel that even though the Adult test standards are set a bit lower, WFSC holds us adults very close to standard track levels thus making it a VERY difficult club to test in.

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Not with the Bronze moves event!
What person working on Bronze moves would be doing the forward and back crosstrokes on the Silver test and the alternating 3's that are no longer on the Pre Bronze moves test?

I'm in a dilemma about this year. With the competition being way earlier than in the last few years ( what was with that anyway?) and my Bronze free re-test scheduled for December (after the competition deadline), I don't know if I'd be ready to compete.

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Which is why I agree that it would be better just to include moves that are on the bronze MITF test.

Maybe the intention was to challenge skaters who have passed that test but aren't ready for silver. Except that one of the moves chosen is from the silver test, and a skater who wants the challenge could just skate up to compete silver moves anyway. (That's what I will do.)

The dates were moved a bit earlier to give more of a gap between NYI and Adult sectionals, as I recall being told.

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Gold moves are odd. Was the power stroking with 3's from the former rules? (don't do moves).

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The previous version of the gold moves test did have back power stroking to 3's on the end but it was the forward inside 3 to back inside 3 pattern that is on the novice moves test currently. They have since removed this pattern and put the inside slide chasse on the gold moves test instead. However, I believe what is being requested at NYI is the back power stroking to back outside power 3's pattern that is currently on the intermediate moves test.

No, the back perimeter power crossover stroking w/back power 3-turns was not on the former Adult Gold MIF test. It is currently on the standard track Intermediate test, which ostensibly some Adults will cross over to after they pass their gold moves test, should they desire to progress in their moves testing.

Actually, the original Adult Gold moves test had the Novice Back Perimeter Power Stroking with BI 3-turns and FI 3-turns, which was quite a bit harder than the the back power 3's, at least for me!

I didn't think so. My coach had showed me the Novice perimeter move, and I rather liked it. I would think, as has been mentioned that the expected entries for the moves event would be primarily those working on their next test - for two reasons.

One, the moves requirements are still relatively new, and anyone with any fs test (taken prior to this) wanting to test up will have not taken the previous moves, but will be working on the next level. For example I have a silver fs test taken prior to moves requirements, so my next moves test if I wanted to test gold fs would be gold, or intermediate for intermediate pairs. There would be no need to work on silver, so I would enter the gold moves (or if working on intermediate, I'd do those moves). However, I would not be learning a new move (the IM3) just for a competition!

Second, if I had taken the gold moves and working on intermediate, why would I want to take the time to brush up a former move, that I already passed just for a competition?

If the moves event for the competition were kept to moves actually in that level, then these two populations would not be discouraged from entering.
It's great to present a challenge, but it should be better thought out. There is already an existing opportunity for a "challenge". Skate up.

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This is in fact a great competition - very well run. But I agree on the strangeness of the moves in Compulsory events. I respect the creativity, and last year in silver there were some interesting things, like a loop jump out of at least 2 running 3s. Got me to work on that.

This year in silver there are two even stranger things:

- a Salchow out of back power pulls. Huh? OK, I can picture it and I'll be working on it tomorrow morning now that the idea is in my head. But I don't think I have EVER seen this. What if an otherwise decent silver skater just can't quite figure this thing out? It's almost like requiring a lutz out of a spread eagle - it just ain't gonna happen for some.

- a layback or sideways leaning spin. OK, I'm a boy. Very few of us do these at all. Unless my horizontal position on the ice counts as "sideways leaning", I'd just have to pass on this element and take the goose egg.



Tim

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I totally agree. I love the NYAI, and always do it if I'm healthy.

Huh? Indeed! Why can't they say something like, "salchow out of footwork" to give people a choice?

LOL! They didn't say how FAR you can lean.

I have always liked a salchow out of edge pulls it teaches control and checking on the entry and the exit, just like peach with the infamous waltz half loop flip which requires good control to make each jump even and controlled.

I will for obvious reasons not doing New Year's but I might go just to watch.

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I'll be going - it will be my first year. I don't know about all the other events you all are mentioning, but i am assuming a regular Silver f/s program will be same requirements as for any USFS event?

Yes, the free skate events are just like anywhere else. We're just talking about the compulsory events, where they list out specific elements that are performed w/out music.

Tim

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Don't expect to comete in Compulsory moves if you are a guy at NYI. The WFSC policy is not to allow women and men compete against each other in any jumping event. I was signed up for silver compulsory two years ago and since no other guys signed up ,they forced me to scratch. They did refund my money(after 3 months) but they dont make it clear in the application.

If they are putting lay-backs in the spin competitions they are probably assuming no guys will enter. You may want to get in contact with the ref or with someone and figure out what they want.

They allow men vs women in MITF and spin events but nothing else.

To be safe: If your a guy, only sign up for freestyle!

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I competed in Silver compulsory at this past year's NYI - it was just me and Tim Fisher. There weren't any girly moves.

That's too bad about 2 years ago. At Halloween it was me against 4 women in this event last year. I thought it was fine and fair. After all, silver is silver.

But about this upcoming NYI, if you're right and they're just not expecting any men to enter, then it'll actually be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Let's say that you, I and one other guy are all thinking about it and looking at the elements. And based on that layback, we all decide against. Or 2 of us. Well there you go, it's cancelled. All they'd need to do is add a parenthetical "or a camel spin for the men".

I'm predicting that this will get corrected.

Tim

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Well, based on an earlier post the required element isn't strictly a layback. It's a layback or a sideways leaning spin. I think that although we tend to associate the two as being the same or very similar, there are those variations of upright spins that are sideways-leaning that do not resemble a layback at all.

Take the following as an example.



In this picture, Stephane's skating leg is well above the height required for a sit spin so this spin could be called an upright. Although his upper body is pitched foward quite a bit, it is also clearly leaning over to one side. I'm not a technical specialist and I'm also not a judge at NYI, but in my opinion, this would satisfy the requirement for a sideways leaning spin and it certainly doesn't look like a layback at all.

That being the case, I wouldn't anticipate that guys would withdraw from silver compulsory moves based on that one required elment alone. That's just my two cents.

Good point, Frank. I'd never have thought of that as a valid position under that definition.

I also recall several male skaters doing sideways leaning (manback? maleback?) spins, including Yagudin, Petrenko, and Urmanov (funky outfit optional). Perhaps those are an acceptable option.

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Does anyone remember what time did the Silver Men skated last year?

I think I might go, due to missing Halloween

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The previous year is not a good indication.
In the past, the FS events have been on Sat. AM, Sat. PM, or Sun. AM.

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