And here is something else to consider: If I had passed Bronze MIF back in October when I first tested (or any other time before the AN deadline) I would have tested (and probably passed) Bronze FS and maybe would have gone to AN (I say maybe b/c there are some work issues that may have affected my ability to attend). My freestyle program would probably be about the same as it is now. Of course, if I hadn't had Bronze moves to worry about for the past 6 months or so (and I do plan to learn and test Silver MIF, but it likely would not have been a huge focus of my practices if I was preparing for AN), I might have gotten some more skills, like a flip or a change-foot spin, but who knows?

So if I skate that program at AN in Bronze, my program and skating are deemed worthy of being at AN, but the same program in Pre-Bronze isn't?

With all due respect, I'd like to see you try to compete w/o good forward crossovers at the Master's level!

Ummm... how about it's TWO less tests to worry about so you can work on OTHER things???

It is QUITE relevant! O'dorf is consider to be unofficially "Adult Worlds!!!"

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

67 siggies today!!! And we got at least one "World and Olympic competitor" that you might recognize!!! (Well, two Worlds level competitors if you include my "sorta famous" NYC coach...) A big thank you for to those who posted! Please keep 'em coming!!! If you know someone who supports this issue, please pass on the petition link to them too!

http://www.petitiononline.com/PreBrzFS/petition.html

Thanks!

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Exactly what I was trying to point out in my last post!!

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

Flo, as you will undoubtedly see at the Mountain Cup, I am a pretty poor skater - but I, and others who also enjoy Interpretive events - do skate to the best of our ability in our Interpretive classes. Yes, there is as much acting as there is skating, if not more - but it's not all about the costume!

In many ways, although the skating can be less technical, it's the harder discipline, as you have to keep "in character" throughout the duration of the piece.... which is what I'm battling with in my present piece! So please, although my skating is very poor, I do hope that when you see it you won't write it off as a "costume event that could have been held in the lobby"..... I didn't quite realise how hurtful I found that remark until I thought about it when working on a section of my Interp at the rink this morning.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Actually, I have a compromise that may just work.

At Regionals, there is the Qualifying event, that is the true Regional qualifying rounds sanctioned by the USFS as such. And, at the same time there is a non-qualifying competition. They are held at the same time, put on by the same LOC, but they are not truly the same event to USFS. However, it is the same event to the skaters. Ask any Preliminary skater that went to Regionals and they will tell you so.

So, why couldn't the LOC add Pre-Bronze events as a "non-qualifying" portion of AN. It could be a trial that way. The LOC would have to apply for an additional sanction for an all-adult comp, they would have to take applications directly, since they wouldn't be going through USFS, and then the Pre-Bronze skaters could be at the same rinks with the Bronze and above.

So, here is the charge to all the Pre-Bronze skaters on this list, or all the skaters that have signed the petition. Contact your club, and have them bid on an upcoming AN, with you agreeing to chair the Pre-Bronze portion of the event. Or, contact any of the upcoming LOCs of the ANs, and offer the same.

You or your team would do the announcement, mail it, take the applications, enter them into a database, get them into a format that the referee and accountant want, then work work the LOC for staffing of registration, hospitality, etc.

If you want an event to happen, sometimes you actually have to get your hands dirty.

Rob
TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.)

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Geriatric Figure Skating Crew - President for Life!
Georgia Figure Skating Club - President (again)
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"I'm too old to die young, and too smart to be happy" - Kinky Friedman, The Mile High Club

2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
2009 Adult Nationals - competing with a cold is not much fun.
2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!

Um, no. According to whom? A lot of the top U.S. skaters were not there, not to mention top adult international skaters.
I'm not sure why people keep referring to this as "Adult Worlds." It's not. In fact, last year, Mountain Cup was the same size, if not larger, than O'dorf.

None of the championship masters ladies medalists (edited to add this) from AN2005 were even at O'dorf and only 2 of the medalists in championship masters and gold men were there. Ditto for championship ladies.

Even if this is Adult Worlds, it's still not relevant to the US adult nationals discussion. The argument and linking is specious at best.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Exactly--you make my point. I COULD compete at master's level at O'dorf. I wouldn't place well, but the fact remains that i could sign up for that event. The IUS/USFS systems are different.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

This assumes that you would have passed your Bronze FS and moves test. But you DIDN'T pass those tests, right? You're comparing apples and oranges. Getting your bronze moves to a passing level would probably translate into stronger freestyle skating and a better program, so it's not the "same" program as what you are skating now. You say "My freestyle program would probably be about the same as it is now", but how do you know that? By getting the moves down your program would probably be far BETTER b/c of the improved skating skills developed in the moves.

Similarly, even though I might skate the same elements when/if I pass gold as I do in silver, I am betting that the *process* of learning gold moves and getting them to a passing level will make my basic skating better and truly "gold level." So, even though I might skate the exact same program that I am doing now when/if I get to gold, the whole process of testing the gold moves will likely NOT make it the "same" program. Get it?

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

I would agree with NoVa skater, the ISU event is NOT "Adult Worlds". It is an adult competition, an open competition, with no international titles on the line. There is still no common standard for grading levels between the adults with regards to different countries, any skater, at any level may compete so long as the meet the requirements for the program (well balanced reqs).

I would imagined it is hoped in the future that this will one day become a qualifying event w/ the top 4 from Champ Gold, Masters, & Dance from each country will come to compete againist each other. They wil most likely continue to have open events and the Master's Elite events.

Pre Bronze skaters can enter this event but remember they use the NJS for this event and you will skate againist people who may use a more difficult standard from a different country not to mention, regular standard track bronze skaters. Some of the scores at the bronze level were below 5 some were in the high teens, if you do it for the love of the sport then it's fine-- but remember the playing field is different.

That's my 02 cents.

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Mrs. Redboots - no hurt intended at all! As you said you skate to the best of your ability, and that's great - no mater what level. I'm talking about the programs which rely on the costumes more than the skating, who don't as you say keep in character or carry the program throught. I agree that interpretive can be much more difficult to skate than a free program - because your skating has to tell a story or theme. I'd like to see the initial rounds of interpretive be done in black leotards. If your theme/story can be translated to the judges and audience without the benefit of the costume, and relies on the skating and choreography, it goes to final rounds.
I like to see the skating tell the story, not just the costume. This is possible at any level, and I look forward to seeing you skate!

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Uh, wrong. In Champ. Masters you had Kim Sailer, Beth Delano, and Jenny Wall, two of whom were in Champ Masters Ladies in 2005 (and Beth's been in ANs Masters Ladies 10 years in a row), and one of whom has been in every Champ Masters Ladies except 2005. Sicne there were only 7 Masters ladies total in O'dorf, and from memory the winner was French and another was canadian, I'd say the ANs Masters Ladies were well represented.

Not that I disagree with your overall argument, but wanted to set the record straight on the fact that we had quite a few there.

Ahhh... but you're not taking into account some of the skaters who HAVE tested and pass the FS test BEFORE the moves requirement happened. I think THOSE are the ones Debbie is concerned about. (I'm not dissing those skaters, BTW. I know a slew of those skaters are also working hard to pass their moves tests. Just that those moves tests are NOT easy tests to pass...)

And with all due respect, if you feel that only those who passed their respective moves and FS test should compete at their respective level, then, you sir, should not have competed at Bronze back in 2004? (I can't remember when you passed Silver Moves and FS... late 2004?)

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Wow, fascinating debate still, though some people, including myself, have taken certain comments personally. I suppose that comes with the territory.

I think I've finally decided what I think. Pre-bronze should not be included. Why?

1) Adult skating is not designed to mirror the standard track, yes that is true. I don't care about my skating being equal or better to the skaters who start very young. I care about my skating being great for an adult, which is a different standard. However, the ADULT STANDARD has settled on bronze being the first level to compete at Nats. It does kind of make sense. Bronzers can do all singles and flying spins. Silvers can do axels and everything bronzers do. And Gold skaters can do doubles (I think up to loop?). These are the levels that Adult Skaters are used to and work towards. Now realistically, what would the prebronze standard be? Having seen some prebronzers skate, I really feel that they are just developing towards bronze. The level is bronze. They are "pre" or before that level. I don't think it makes sense to add what basically amounts to an intermediary level. Because I don't think prebronze it and of itself really amounts to a level.

2) I have been swayed by the arguments that it wouldn't be all that much more money and it would also cost more. Still, I do think this is a strong argument.

3) Yes, adult skating is primarily for fun. Adult Nats shouldn't be exclusionary. But Adult Skating should have its own standards, which have evolved over time. If anything standards should increase, not decrease.

4) I say this as someone who has NOT passed bronze tests. I have a bronze program and skate up at local events. However, should I not be able to pass bronze moves, then I guess I would have to keep trying and striving. Because I think the skills on bronze moves are important for adults to have.

Um, Pre-Bronze dance, pre-Silver dance, pre-Gold Dance. Remember there _is_ a pre-bronze test level. There is no pre-Silver test level. If you're
"in between," do what I did this year--compete in interp and skip freestyle.

I was told in Dallas that there were only 450 skaters in Dallas. For Chicago, we are estimating 600-800....I wonder if we're being overconfident. Unless we can get a big TV contract, we do need to explore ways of increasing entries.....

According to my coach, the two areas of skating that are growing right now are Adult and Synchro.....

Actually, in 2004 I competed (having passed Prelim moves) in Bronze against girls who had passed their Gold and Intermediate moves. There is a Silver level skater who has passed Senior moves, but doesn't have the axel consistant enought to pass Gold free. Adult skating, like a lot of life, is what _you_ make of it.

Also, to reply to NoVa (sorry, missed you skate this year)....the Dallas FSC had purchased the ice time to use both surfaces on Saturday. They ended up having to sell it back to hockey, public skate, etc. I certainly hope that move (which was the decision of the chief ref, btw) didn't cost the LOC $$$.

I was referring to freestyle elements. I agree with you that working on moves improves your overall skating, and every time I (and others) have tried to make the point that Pre-Bronze skaters have to demonstrate skills beyond just the FS test elements thanks to the moves requirement, people seem to want to steer the discussion back to the FS test (which a Pre-Bronze skater couldn't take w/o passing the moves first).

My point is that there is a variety of skill level in Bronze, which I saw for myself watching the video that I got of Bronze (old) I at AN last year. There are test-level Bronzes (like I would be) and there are those with lutz-loop-loop combos and flying camels, and those at all places in between. But if a test-level Bronze program (like mine is in terms of technical content) is not considered non-skating b/c it's performed by a Bronze skater, then why should a Pre-Bronze program with the same content be considered non-skating, as a poster on this thread suggested (which I thought was a bit insulting....but I'm open to the idea that maybe she didn't mean it the way it was intended). If the point is that the overall skating skills, as a result of passing Bronze MIF, would make the difference, I'm open to agreeing with that....but remember, not every Bronze level skater who competed at AN this year has passed Bronze moves, so that brings us back to the question of what exactly constitutes Bronze-level or national-level skating.

But you skated as a kid (or teenager), Hannahclear. From what I've read in your posts, it sounds like you were already basically at the Bronze level (in terms of your moves testing and freestyle skills) when you became an "adult" skater. For people who started skating as adults (particularly those over 35 or 40), Pre-Bronze is a level, one that they aspire to get to by learning and passing the moves and FS skills. Most adults who compete don't want to stay Pre-Bronze for long, b/c they'd like to get to AN (plus, there are a lot of local comps that don't offer Pre-Bronze, although more do than used to) and also b/c they want to learn the higher level skills and move up the testing ladder. Same reason that Bronze skaters aspire to move up to Silver, and Silver to Gold, provided they have the skills to be competitive.

Whether a given pre-Bronzer is *better* than a lot of Bronze level skaters is really neither here nor there, and I think insisting on that point hurts the case. (No one here thinks like that, as they're just pointing out the oddness of being 'in the gap' on struggling on Bronze moves but proficient in late-Bronze singles, but to the USFSA, I'm sure it would look kind of catty: 'I'm better than *her*, why can't I go just cause I didn't pass the test before the deadline and she did. Wahhhh.' To which the only reasonable response by the USFSA is 'We already decided that MiTF were important.')

I'm sure the top skaters at any level are probably better than the lower-ranked skaters at the next highest level (and this is true even in the competitive ranks).

Better to focus the argument on the interest and the viability of pre-Bronze as a separate level, not on how the Pre-Bronze skaters are all so close anyway it doesn't matter. USFSA isn't going to want to hear that their tests shouldn't count for their National comp!

Yes, and you have to pass _SIX_ dance tests to compete--the three prelim and the three pre-bronze. Two teams were passing tests in late December--my partner and I had to fly to another state--so that we could get the tests done in time.

Totally not the way it was intended! Which is gloriously clear from context:

I think I'm the only one to use the phrase 'dull skating.' But here we can see the phrase in its original context, where I was discussing the viability of a restriction on jumps that would a) sufficiently distinguish Pre-Bronze from Bronze (because it would be bad if pre-Bronze wasn't a level accomodating to true beginning-to-mid-range pre-Bronzers, but just a 'didn't pass the Bronze test yet, so I took the lutz out of my program') and b) not be such a severe restriction that it led to dull skating, like having a true beginner routine of some crossovers and waltz jumps.

As I'm sure you can see, this is much different from saying 'All pre-Bronze skating is dull and boring.'

This is basically true. I started skating at 15 (post 94 whack), got up to prelim by my senior year of high school and then quit. Went through basic skills and pre pre. I came back to skating later and turned 25 just as they lowered the age requirement.

I recognize that it is easier to get started younger, and just as someone who started at 4 has an easier time than me, I have an easier time than someone who started at 35. But I don't think that's a reason to change the standards. I know a woman who started in her 30s and who is a silver skater and she's a hell of alot better than me, and she didn't skate as a kid.

Pre-bronze is a level, but not a competitive level. IMO, it's a beginner adult.

That "skating as a kid" argument never holds water...I'm living proof of it. I started at age 5. Forty three years later, I still can't do backward cross overs. My partner started in his late thirties. Nine years letter his back cross overs are impeccable. It's humiliating--our coach has him teaching me back cross overs! End of story.

Now, I still think there should be a Pre-Bronze pairs competition at AN!

Well, here's a good example as why major comps might be an issue....I was slated to test my Silver FS on Jan 13th, but it got pulled because all the available judges were at Nationals (as spectators) that week.....

So even if they do not have double assignments, many do travel to these comps as fans...especially when they are places like Calgary, which is relatively inexpensive compared to Europe or Japan.

My understanding of the issue this year was that some officials had last-minute personal issues and couldn't make it--with no replacements available. I have never heard anything about judges _not_ wanting to judge ANs over other comps, but they might also just be polite.

Can someone explain to me how there can be a shortage of judges? There are like 20 million judges at my home club. I have to imagine that the total number of judges who are qualified to judge AN is very large. I think they just didn't want to spend the $$$ to fly in judges, that's all. Is there a registry at the USFSA that says how many judges there are in the US broken out by levels?