Ok, I'm just a bit annoyed, perplexed, frustrated, and sour, I don't know if anyone has come across this in their experiences of skating and such, but I've gone back and forth on this enough recently that I need to vent it to others for a couple more pennies.

In talking to the USFSA, one can wear boot covers if they so wish, or have any kind of boot color they want. But everyone around here tells me that the judges for this area do not like boot covers or over the boot tights and will deduct points. I've also been told there are some judges who think adults should not be ice skating and routinely fail them or start them with much lower marks. I've also heard that there is a judge who passes "cute" participants and fails "un-cute" ones, and even another one who put the comment "Nice Dress" on the results paper. It's so bad that people in my club and some coaches will not let their skaters go to a test or competition if certain judges are on the panel. And here I thought skating was about skating, boy was I wrong!

Right now I am extremely annoyed in that I will not be able to express myself as me in what I see is truly an individualistic sport.

So most likely, even if I skate a flawless program, I most likely will place dead last if I wear boot covers, or if I skate in a non-traditional boot color, or heaven forbid, non-traditional attire. And supposedly this even applies to practice ice!

I think something Henry Ford said when he made the Model A fits this to a "T" "You can have it in any color you want, as long as it's black"

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

We've always gone traditional when testing or competing....meaning gone with the flow so to speak. My rationale is to give us every advantage to be successful. That would include dress that would not distract from the performance and would hopefully enhance it.

Now at our rink I have never heard a judge who based a mark on appearance during a test. Our skaters sometimes wear their warm up jackets or gloves to test because it's so darn cold. No problem. But nobody has ever really gone non-traditional either....so I don't know what the reaction would be.

Perhaps the place to express yourself would be in interpretive or showcase events. No limits there! If you have an opportunity to ever watch adult nationals, go!

I believe we have a female poster here who tests and competes in black skates...maybe she'll post a response here for you. She's not in the midwest though. I suppose Ohio tends to be a bit conservative.

Anyways....I'm sorry your feeling so frustrated.

Welcome to the world of skating!

I spoke to a judge about this. Her response was "there is nothing to say that you can't wear what you like but we DO like tan tights and white boots" ..... I have purple boots but wear (wore) OTB tights with them which doesn't seem to offend their sensibilities.

On the weirdness of skating ...... I was once in a competition where a fellow skater was wearing a white lycra dress (white + adult IMO is a dodgy area unless you're tiny) and the referee told them a) to deduct because it was too revealing (actually the costume itself covered relevant bits it was just a bit, erm, see through) and b) that if she was to make it onto the podium then the referee would personally fire the judges!

Another guy who tested at my rink failed his test on the quality of his edges (it said that in the final comments bit) .... yet the score sheet said "good edges" .... erm!

x

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The best whisper is a click

The OTB tights or white boots showing thing is something that I had to come to terms with this summer. To be honest I'd never been a fan of OTB tights as I prefer to see the boots. However the day before the Opens I had a lesson and both pairs of my footed tights were in the wash so I wore OTB tights for the first time. My coach, who like me, prefers footed tights to OTB ones decided that in fact, I looked better in the OTB ones, so we decided to go for those. Then my friend who works in the results room every year commented that judges do prefer to see white boots. So the day before a big competition and I didn't know what to wear for the best. In the end though I stuck with the OTB tights as per my coach's instructions.

I can't help but feel it's a shame that these minor things can make a difference. My coach doesn't believe that the style of tights you wear will affect your mark, but you do wonder.

Nicki

There is a lady at my rink (I may have mentioned her before, so please forgive the repeat) who I think is a fairly good skater. Yes, she may not be a gold medal skater, but I can tell she is doing it and having fun. The first (and only so far because of the comments) time she tested, she wore pants, the judges told her the next time she comes she better be wearing a skirt, She does nto want to wear a skirt, it's not that she hates them, but she is too modest herself to do so. In my numerous emails to the USFSA and their replies, the clothing restrictions do not apply to testing, only to competitions.

My designer has said the same thing but also added comulsaries to the list. Your not skating to a theme or even music in either of those, so whats the big deal?

As for boot covers or over the boot tights, does it really matter? I mean really, tell me how your boots look, or even how your clothing looks affects your skating? If the judges don't like it, then that is their opinion is it not? Their opinion is not supposed to be reflected in the scores that they give you, they are supposed to be judging you for how you skate. And if your doing a program, then it becomes in how you interconnect between what your doing and what it is. If they don't think the outfit is appropriate then they can use the .1 reduction to reflect that. But to reflect it any more then that in the scores or to force you to change to their opinion is unethical.

One shouldn't need to cater the the wimes of a judges opinion of what a skater should be doing, or even more, of how they should dress. (And no, you can't go skating in the nude! Well, not yet anyways) As I said, skating (except for testing, technically) is an individual sport, how you interpet it, and how you think it should be portrayed should be your decision. If everyone catered to the wimes of the judges, then have we not lost the sense of being ourselves and individuals? Really, maybe the judges should tell you what music they like, what order you should do your moves in and where they should be done and what poses they like best. As well as what colors they like, if they prefer sleeves or sleevless, how long or short your skirt should be, and maybe even tell you what color your hair should be? That way you can skate how they want you to skate, and not how you want to skate guaranteeing that you fit into their opinion of what skating is, and not what you think it is.

I guess I'm in the wrong sport for wanting to express my individuality.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Well, my boots look better with OTB tights, because they are old and scratched. My coach dislikes boot-covers, and tells me not to wear them at competitions, which I don't, but if I didn't have OTB tights I would - at least, I'd wear the tan ones that match my tights. After all, tan skates and tights look very similar, don't they?

To be honest, I think that as long as your clothing conforms to regulations (I know at least one British skater who was penalised as she didn't realise USFSA regulations required the midriff to be covered, and hers wasn't), the judges don't mind too much.

At the lowest levels, I think the judges are far less picky than we give them credit for. They are, after all, trying to encourage skaters, not put them off. I know one woman who tested her Level 1 in a tracksuit, and as far as I know, nothing was said. On the other hand, a girl who was taking the old Silver test (about level 9 or 10 by today's standards, I think) and was borderline, was failed partly because her underwear showed. I gather the judges felt that this lack of attention to detail for a skater of that level reflected a lack of maturity in her skating, which was not therefore up to standard.

So I think that unless and until we reach those rarefied heights - and for those of us who started in our 40s, that's not exactly likely - we needn't worry too much. I like to wear nail-polish, full make-up and glitter when I compete, but that's because I feel better when I do so, not because the judges even notice! And I couldn't wear nail polish at the last competition as just before I left the house I broke a nail so badly it cut the flesh at the side, and no way could I put polish on it! I had been going to put polish on in the car, but had to be content with buffing, instead.... but we did better than we have done for some time, so really it's the skating what counts....

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

If there's one thing I've learned in my years of skating, it's that people are constantly incorrectly attributing all sorts of evil to judges. Everything from how they'll fail you if you wear ugly outfits to how they always pass the students of a particular coach. Usually, when you get down to it, it's a load of hooey! Most of it is heresay or some urban legend. It probably got started because some kid who would have failed anyway was wearing boot covers (or whatever the offense in question is) the day he failed. Judges may, indeed, have preferences. But most of them know the difference between a personal preference and a test standard (or USFSA rule). If your skating is solid and you're not violating an actual rule, just take the test.

And yes, there is a rule that men have to wear pants. If you want to dispute it, blame USFSA, not the local judges.

By the way, about the white dress that was see-through and the referee forced a deduction -- the referee was absolutely correct. There is a rule (can't cite it because I'm at work, away from my rule book) that says the outfit must be appropriate for athletic competition. See-through white lycra is not appropriate for athletic competition. I'm glad to hear that some people are actually enforcing this rule. I think things have gotten a little out of hand.

Thats disgusting!
I thought we had a new judging system now!
You cant judge people by what they wear!
Argh this makes me so mad!

If you have any problems with a judge or have questions regarding the criteria a judge uses at test sessions, then I suggest you or your club contact the Regional or Sectional Vice Chair of Judging in your area.

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"A boy can learn a lot from a dog: obedience, loyalty, and the importance of turning around three times before lying down."

Judges are human, and therefore have certain biases, no matter how they try to stick to judging by the rules - that's a part of our sport. I think it would be impossible to totally remove these biases from judging.

I'll give you an example. Say you have a competition situation where two skaters perform all of the elements equally well with the same technical merit and a similar level of presentation. However, one of the skaters is wearing OTB tights with a holes in the boot area and a practice dress, and the other is wearing a competition dress with good tights. It is human nature to prefer the skater in the competition attire over the other skater, because the attire of the skaters show their attention to detail and caring. Its kind of like going to a job interview in non-traditional clothing and wondering why you didn't get hired.

As far as the difference in competition attire and test attire, I think the test attire should conform to the basic rules the same as competitive attire, even if it is less formal. You are participating in an official, sanctioned event as a representative of the club and of the USFSA/ISI, and should conform to the rules set in place by those organizations. It's not like you have to conform all of the time, just where it is prudent. Life is full of compromises.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

BUT, in many walks of life, you wear the correct uniform to do whatever it is you are doing, whether this is belonging to a uniformed organisation like the Girl Guides, or playing in a team sport of some kind, or even some schools (a majority, in this country, but I believe that's not true in the USA). Wearing the right clothes for the job is a big part of life, and there's no reason on earth that shouldn't be true of skating, too.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I know a woman who showed up for her first test in black leggings, not knowing that a skirt or dress was required. Luckily, her coach happened to have a black wrap around skirt with her, so the skater just added that and flew through her test. She bought one of her own, and now always wears her same black leggings with the wrap on top, with no problems. You might suggest that to your aquaintance who is too modest for skirts.

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To whose comments are you referring? The original poster's or one of the respondants?

Where on earth did you get the impression that the new judging system would be blind to attire?

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"A boy can learn a lot from a dog: obedience, loyalty, and the importance of turning around three times before lying down."

ITA. These things are usually perception problems by onlookers who haven't reviewed the actual papers or judges sheets & then overexaggerate the situation rather than face reality regarding the skating quality. Ask the people who are telling you their skater failed for wearing OTB tights if they filed a complaint with the club test chair or USFSA & what happened, because I am sure it will turn out the skater did not fail for wearing OTB tights.

I do not see the problem with a judge writing "Nice dress" on a test form. They can write "nice costume", "nice music selection", "nicely done", "nice whatever", as long as they are judging the test according to the test rules. How unfortunate that some skaters see this as some kind of negative feedback when I'm sure the judge is trying to be supportive.

WHAT!!!! She would probably never pass another test in her district again.

Dealing with "some" judges is like dealing with "some" police officers. It all depends on his/her mood, personal likes and dislikes, and general attitude. And if you get on their bad side, they're always looking for you.

(Notice I said "some". No harsh generalizations. It might even be a "few". Like in any other activity, it only takes one to spoil a batch.)

It's also interesting to look at different judges comments on the same skater's skate. I remember where one judge complimented a skaters deep edges while the judge next to her wrote that her edges weren't deep enough.

All in all, the potential for judge bias is the reason I won't ever test.

I'm at work and thinking/typing in-between stuff, so I haven't had a lot of time to think how I'll phrase things. If this post offends, I aplogize in advance. I don't mean to be offensive. I'm just typing quickly without much forethought.

Anyway, skating is a sport that one chooses to participate in. There are many ways to participate: skating recreationally on your own, testing via ISI, competing via ISI, competing at rink-based competitions, testing via USFSA, competing via USFSA, etc. Each of these options carries with it a set of rules, norms, and standards of behavior. Every organization or activity has its own standards for dress, communciation, etc. If you choose to participate in one of those options, you effectively agree to those rules. For example, when you join USFSA, you are agreeing to abide by their rules on eligibility, testing, and competing. That means you must first know the rules. (It's also a good idea to "lay low" for a while to figure out what the norms and standards of behavior are.) Sort of like lurking on a forum like this to see how people generally behave. If you don't like the rules, as a participating member, you are free to work to get them changed. It's a right and responsibility of membership.

So if there are legitimate concerns over judging standards, you should communicate that to the proper authorities in the sport. What you should not do is accept gossip and innuendo (especially if it's likely to be the result of "sour grapes" or "I wuz robbed" emotions), then blame the sport or organization for it.

I'll repeat my favorite phrase: get a rule book! Read it. Learn it. If you don't understand it, get USFSA to help you. If you don't think it's being applied correctly, pursue it.

I would agree that these sorts of comments are just the judges being pleasant and not implying that a 'not nice' dress etc would have cost you any marks or that you did better because of your dress.

On my Free dance test I got the comment 'nice arms' which made me laugh (having always thought my arms were rather too fat especially round the tops.) Of course she meant nice 'use' of arms and quite a few judges have taken to adding a smiley face to their comments to show they are being friendly!!!

I have heard so many conflicting stories about what judges do and don't like that it probably means that they are really pretty impartial.

When I competed recently, dancing to a march rhythm, and went to the trouble of making a dress with a vaguely military style it wasn't because I really thought the dress would make any difference to the judges marks but because it helped me to skate in an appropriately 'military' style because I was dressed that way. I wouldnt' have skated it so well in a pretty, pretty, floaty dress as it wouldn't have suited the style of the music.

I had a judge comment on how nice my dress was on a dance test, I passed the test with very good marks and a lot of good comments on technique so I don't think it was the dress that got me the test! It was more in the tone of "by the way, that dress looks really nice on you".

I tend to be very conservative with my test attire and make up, I don't want it to detract from my skating, I also don't want the bother of worrying about costume and make-up issues. I'm a lot more flashy with competition attire, especially when I'm doing a showcase.


Skating in the nude not where I skate, average temperature is 4-8 degrees celcius and the ice gets so hacked up, it's like skating on sandpaper

Testing in the nude. Now that's one sure fire way for me not to pass a test. The judges would be laughing so hard at my body that they wouldn't see my skating.

Or maybe that would be a good thing.

Where on earth did you get the impression that the new judging system would be blind to attire?(Icedancer:S)


Um...what exactly are you talking about?

The presumption is still that the skater is failing the test because of over the boot tights. Not only is that an inaccurate presumption, but it is an actionable violation of the rules. That is not the reason the skater is failing the test, no matter what people are telling this poster. That's why I said question the skater more thoroughly when you hear things like this & you will find it is untrue.

Just thought I'd add my two bits...I went to a competition on the weekend, a regional, competitive competition (in Canada of course), and was just a spectator, and didn't compete. I had the opportunity to talk to a couple judges and a retired judge from my club. This is what we were told.

Judges will mark what they like, even if that means on appearence, especially at the low level. They're not paid, and for the most part could care less about the final outcome. Sure this isn't true for all the judges - some care a great deal.

We had one judge tell us that if two skaters skated exactly the same, and he didn't know who to give it to her, he'd give it to the one in the yellow dress, because he likes yellow better. Oh and one judge told us if he heard the song "Up in the Clouds" (or something about Clouds...I can't remember the exact song), that skater comes last no matter what they skate like.

Interpretive is the worst, I'd have to say, though. Get this...my friend was competing in GOLD Interpretive, and there is a rule that states that "no theatrical costumes shall be worn" or whatever. This includes feathers and we have been told that in the past. Well, the girl who placed third was wearing feathers, and the judges told her that was fine. There is no definition to skating anymore. In the past I've started my Interpretive laying the ice - I've had multiple people tell me this was just fine, and others tell me that it's illegal. I've a judge even tell me HYDROBLADING is illegal, because you're hand touches the ice, and they are forced to deduct .3?? Who really knows what's right and what's not?

So it can go two ways, I figure. Either you go out there, be normal, skate to slow, pretty music, wear a "pretty" yellow dress and those judges on those days, will choose the one who chose to be "different", or go out there, skate to what you want, wear hot pink and have FUN...and judges choose the ordinary that day. I figure, at least you had fun!!! After all, shouldn't that REALLY be what it's about?

Kortney!!! (Sorry for the babbling, I just had a lot to say)

I have totally lost the "evil" perception of judges. Yes, they're human, and some are harsher than others, but in the end, they pass you if they think you deserve it. It's much easier to test if you treat the judges as actual human beings rather than evil-eyed monsters.

I've had judges comment positively on my music and dress, and I find absolutely nothing wrong with that - it definitely doesn't mean that they wouldn't pass an equally skilled skater with a dress they didn't particularly like. I even had a judge who gave me a retry, yet still signed a smiley face next to his name. At the time, I thought it was evil, but now I believe that it was just his way of saying, "keep trying, you're just not quite ready yet."

I don't find anything wrong with the fact that skating organizations include dress guidelines. There are similar things in workplaces, schools, and other sports. Yes, it does limit some people's tastes, but in the end, it is necessary to stop people from wearing inappropriate attire.

I'd love to say that they are not, but after talking to several coaches, and many skaters who have competed, there are some judges that are very biased. So even if you skate the perfect program, you may still get lower points because of some bias a judge has



I didn't say anything about wearing or not wearing pants for men, and yes, I am taking this issue up with the USFSA, I have been in talks with them for almost a year now discusing SSR 19.01. And it's not actually USFSA that handles this, as they mainly follow the rules of ISU. I think the rule of restricting what one can wear to specific type of clothing to be sexist and out of date.

While true that that outfit may not have been suitable for athletic competition, the rules state that anyone in violation of it shall recieve a .1 point reduction in the second set of marks. There is nothing that says that she would get even more points deducted, or even barred from competing. So even with her .1 deduction and she placed first, they could not deduct even more to deny her of getting first. To keep her from getting the points she deserved for her technical as well as artistic work would be unethical.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."