Perhaps slightly OT from original thread.

Some pertinent quotes -

"I believe that there can be a place for everyone in USFSA. I think there can be a robust program for returning/continuing skaters AND skaters who started as adults. I just think I may be seeing the beginning of a trend in USFSA, and I don't want to see skaters who started as adults get squeezed out."

"I've already stated that I think there is room for all kinds of adult skaters. I just don't want to see USFSA assume that they're the only adult skaters around. I'm merely postulating about what I perceive to be the beginnings of a trend."

"Yes, there are a number of local and regional competitions that now have adult portions included in their competitions. But I also feel the adult who learned to skate as an adult, and I agree that 'adult skater' was originally the meaning, has been shuttled to the back rink."

"I would love to see a section for those who learned as adults (I started at age 46) but somehow it does not fit in with the focus of the USFS."

-Generally I agree with Skateflo and Skaternum and have shared many of the same feelings on the issue. I started at 41 never having skated on ice before.

"Of course, it may not matter after a while. I haven't seen any "new" adults start the test stream since the adult MITF became mandatory. The only ones I've seen testing prebronze are the skaters who were already hooked."

-I'm not sure I've seen this but I have noted a general slowdown of adults starting up the testing ladder since MITF became mandatory. I recall being at AN in Marlboro and another adult skater friend telling me that there was a movement afoot to make MITF tests mandatory for adult testing and I should voice my opinion against it since it was being promoted largely by returning or continuing kid skaters now(then)in power at USFS. I wasn't a member then and felt I had no voice but wanted to learn more about the issue.

I was rather incensed when I read a quote soon after by someone in power who was promoting MITF saying something like, "these competing adult skaters need to learn more about turns, edges, body control ..." or some such and the MITF testing would make that happen. Well, from a critical skating point-of-view I would agree (I can be as critical as Dick Button) BUT from a PRACTICAL standpoint it angered me. As an adult skater participant I observe how large a problem sandbagging seemed to be at A.N. BEFORE MITF came along, I can only imagine it will become MUCH worse after. I also resented this statement from the standpoint that most serious competitive adult skaters I've met were working on standard track MITF tests anyway. I resented the inference that adult skaters somehow didn't care about good technique or self-improvement and needed to be lead by the heavy hand of regulation to better themselves.

I think USFS must have been crazy not to have allowed grandfathering of standard track MITF tests previously passed by adult skaters. We as adults certainly don't have unlimited funds for coaching or ice time. More and more I hear of less ice time being available for figure skating in general, particularly scheduled when working adults can take advantage of it.

If the larger focus is supposed to be getting adults into participating and competing while at the same time improving skating I think MITF misses the mark. In my case the Pre-bronze moves requirement is particularly discouraging. Contrast what the Pre-bronze Freestyle test requirements and elements are to what the MITF requirements are. There is a VAST disparity of difficulty involved. Case in point the sequential/serpentine F.O. and F.I. three-turns. This skill comes from PRELIMINARY moves. It requires one to complete the 3-turn, check hard on the back edge, then open up and step to the opposite FORWARD edge, smoothly. I submit that this is a test for 6 to 10 year olds, not middle-age adult male beginning skaters. My coach complains about this requirement, and while she can do it well she feels she needs a bunch of warmup and practice to demonstrate it comfortably and smoothly. What chance do I have of doing this well?

I would submit that USFS need only crunch their own numbers to see how much (or little) they've promoted the test stream to beginning middle-aged people. I would bet that the amount of older beginners, particularly men, passing Pre-bronze has slowed to a trickle. I feel A LOT farther away from testing since MITF than before. Perhaps I'll never get there now.

I guess to sum up my feeling is that the deck is stacked largely in favor of the returning skater rather than trying to foster new beginning adults. Sorry for the rant but this hits close to home for me.

Dave D.

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- "I'd like to skate well some decade and I hope it's this one"-

What Dave said. I especially agree with him on the following points:

A. Most serious adult skaters were doing MITF long before the adult tests were implemented. They may not have been doing them with testing in mind, but I can name only a handful of adult skaters (and I know many) who weren't at the very least doing them as part of an on-ice warm up. I don't personally have a problem with them being required to take the adult freestyle tests but I can see where one might. As adults, one would think we'd be able to make our own decisions about whether we had the ice time, coaching time, money for both, etc. to take moves tests.

B. Some of the requirements need to be moved around. Those alternating 3's were the hardest thing on the Prelim test for me, and I was fourteen years old at the time!

C. Not allowing grandfathering, and not providing a way for skaters who would prefer to take the standard track to do so, makes no sense to me whatsoever. If the point of requiring the MITF for adults is to make them better skaters overall, shouldn't we be applauding and encouraging those who choose to push themselves to the level of the child/teen skaters, rather than saying, "Well, that's all nice and good, but now you'll have to spend another $$$ to take the adult test too"? Take my example: I'm not 25 yet. I've passed my Intermediate MITF and Pre-Juvenile FS. For the last three years I've been focused solely on dance, but when I turn 25 I'd like to take my Adult Pair tests and maybe some of the Adult FS tests as well. My understanding- and this may be wrong- is that I'd have to start over with my Adult Pre-Bronze freeskate and therefore my Adult Pre-Bronze MITF. What a waste of time and money!

Quick question: what's the deal with the Adult Pairs tests? Do they have the Adult MITF requirement also?

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Shae-Lynn and Victor: We knew you were champions, and on 3/28/03 the whole WORLD found out! Thank you for twelve wonderful years!

Yes, they do. TR 35.03 says: ... Prior to taking adult pair tests candidates must have taken and passed at tleast the equivalent level adult moves in the field test.

And, obviously, I agree with Dave and CanAmSk8r on the MITF. I found them objectionable when they were first introduced, for exactly the reasons Dave gives. I *am* one of those adult skaters who started testing standard MITF on my own because they're good for my skating. I don't need USFSA to ram it down my throat.

Anecdotally, I know several adult skaters who can't/won't test any further on adult tests because they don't have the money or ice time to tackle the MITF tests. My pairs partner is a good example. He's passed Novice MITF, but to be able to compete at the "appropriate" freeskating level, he'd have to take at least Pre-bronze and Bronze MITF tests, and also Silver if he wanted to compete at Adult Sectionals and Nationals. He skates 3 hours a week now and takes NO lessons because of time and financial constraints. Sure, he shouldn't have too much trouble being able to get those tests ready, but that's an extra couple hundred dollars for the test fees, lesson time, and practice sessions. It's ridiculous. CanAmSk8r, if grandfathering were allowed, it wouldn't be an issue. He'd still have to pass the freeskating tests, but that cuts his test expenses in half.

I agree that grandfathering should be allowed.

Don't forget that the standards for the Adult moves tests are lower than for the standard track. For example, on the consecutive three turns, in Prelim, putting one's free foot down every time before stepping forward would fail that move, but is allowed in the adult Pre-Bronze test.

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Dave, I feel your pain.

I've been skating 2 1/2 years, and I'm getting close to being able to take pre-Bronze MIF. I've been working on the test seriously for 6 months, although it feels like a lot longer, and I'm ready to scream in frustration about those 3 turns. If it wasn't for them (and the practice time they require), I could have been ready to take the test 2 months ago, maybe earlier.

I have heard many stories in my area about judges' scoring of adult moves tests. It seems that there is a lot of inconsistency over what the judges expect and how the test standards are applied, and that can even vary from rink to rink. One of my coach's students recently failed Bronze MIF and my coach disagreed with the result. My coach suspects that judges are more demanding of adult skaters under the belief that "adults should know better." Then recently, a "returning" skater passed pre-Bronze MIF, even with a fall on her back crossovers, because the judges liked her edges and 3 turns so much they passed her without a reskate.

I know they instituted moves to increase the quality of adult skating, but as skaternum pointed out, adults who want to skate and compete well will take it upon themselves to improve the quality of their skating by practicing and testing MIF (or edge classes, or other ways). I personally am finding the moves discouraging, and I would much prefer to improve my basic skating skills in the context of my freestyle elements.

dnby, exactly what do you mean by being allowed a touch down of the free foot? There's nothing like that in the rulebook and when I asked a judge at a recent moves critique how long adults were allowed to keep their free foot down during the transition, she looked at the book and replied that there was nothing in there about 2-foot skating allowed and I was not allowed to touch the free foot down until I got back to the line. Have you seen passing pre-Bronze tests where the skater touched down?

Here's one of the nasty little things about the Adult MITF tests. The Adult Skating Committee has this on its web page: MITF Comparison Chart. Conscientious adults and their coaches will read it and attempt to use it as a guide for preparing for tests. The problem is, nobody ever told the judges! Most judges have no idea it even exists. They have no clue what the passing standard should look like for adults, so you get some nasty surprises on test day and major inconsistency in how they're judged.

I think that adult MIF's are a good thing. However, I do feel that there are some elements included that are out of line. The alternating 3's are one of them, and the Novice move on the Gold test is another. USFSA needs to go back and take a good long look at what they're including in the tests now that they've been in practice.

I also agree that grandfathering should be allowed. IMO, there is no reason someone who has passed the standard MIF test (or freestyle, for that matter) should have to take them over. Sure, the moves don't correspond exactly to the standard level, but the intent is the same.

I had to take 5 adult tests to be able to skate at my required level (due to the kid rules). I would have much rather have spent those 7 months training correctly then having to push myself so hard to get the tests over with - and I was able to grandfather through Silver because I took 3 freestyle tests in one day just before the rules changed. If I hadn't had to push so much (I really wanted to skate at AN when it was here in Michigan), maybe I wouldn't have gotten injured just after my last test........

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

UGGGG, YES!!! When I went to take my Silver MITF test, I saw the panel of judges and I knew there was NO WAY they'd judge me on the Adult Standards, and I was right. Granted, I was having a very off day and failed the test (and rightly so), but they still judged on the standard track.

I turned 25 last year, and by then I had already tested up to Juvenile Moves and Pre-Juvenile Freeskate. And now, I am having to spend a lot of time and money practicing and re-testing (and failing!!?? ) Moves I passed years ago. PLUS when I failed my Silver MITF, it was a week before the AN deadline, so I couldn't do Silver at AN. BUT, I already knew since I passed Pre-Juv FS like 4 years ago (not realizing future consequences), it prohibited me from skating Bronze! So no AN for me. I took and passed Bronze MITF and Free....and I can't skate it? How is that fair??

I would much rather keep testing standard track MITF, but since I really want and need to get these Adult tests out of the way (so to speak), I keep plugging along at Pre-Juv three turns and Pre-Prelim spirals. Really, what is the reasoning behind not grandfathering?

I guess the lesson is that adults need to prepare using the standard track guidelines. I suppose one could make sure their test chair gets a copy of the adult guidelines and ask him/her to share with the judges on test day, but who knows if the judges even care to see it or if it will change what they expect. Then the question is: why set up adult tests that are different from the standard track tests? I do realize there are a couple of standard moves that are not on any adult test - like the Pre-Juv power pulls and the Prelim spirals. But I think the standard tests that correspond to the adult levels seem a bit fairer. The Pre-prelim moves test is pretty simple, what a so-called encouragement test should be. I'd gladly take that test over pre-Bronze, and save those dratted alt 3s for Bronze level. I'm certainly not feeling too encouraged by practicing them.

I agree, there should be grandfathering. In fact, from what Stormy describes, it sounds like nobody at the USFSA thought the no-grandfathering policy through when they instituted the MIF tests. Maybe they figured everyone who tested as a kid would go to Masters.

I also don't see the point in requiring "young adult" skaters to take standard track tests to compete at those levels, and then have to take adult tests from the beginning once they're 25. Why not allow anyone over 18 to take the adult tests and just separate the age groups for competition purposes. The way it's set up now, it punishes younger adult skaters - ironic since the young adult track was created to help teenage skaters who only tested at lower levels stay in the sport and transition to the adult track.

I agree that there SHOULD be some grandfather clause for those taking the standard MITF test. Of course, which standard test levels to goes with which Adult track test level is the part that gets tricky to figure out.

I do feel your pain on having to spend money on lessons and preparing for the Moves test, since I've been working on the Bronze Moves test for well over 2 years now and am JUST getting close to testing the darn thing (that was right before I got injured though) In fact, for the past few months, my lessons consists about 80-90% on the Bronze Moves. I have yet to worked on spins with my secondary coach except for our very first lesson and maybe two lessons on jumps. My primary coach has been working on spins lately b/c I have been able to do one runthrough of the Bronze Moves test per lesson and has been able to squeeze in some time at the end for spins. Jumps? RARELY!

However, I also have to realized that eventually I would have to learn how to "skate" in order to make it easier to do the more difficult jumps and spins. Also, I would like to "look like I know how to skate" (or "skate pretty" as my primary coach likes to say), so having to learn moves now and then work on jumps and spins later on gives me more of a competitive edge b/c I could do more interesting footwork stuff in my program. So... even though I HATE doing alternating 3turns like I hated eating veggies as a kid, I know that eventually that will come in handy for me. And certainly my lower back and joints will thank me later for NOT doing jumps!

BTW: I'm "technically" a "returning skater" but I'm really not if you read the What "Adult" means to USFSA thread.

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

What irks me about one of the adults who was so vocal about implementing MIF was that she was already competing Adult Gold level. This change would not impact her at all, except that it would limit those moving up to her competitive level. The Adult Gold FS test is very similar to the Juvenile FS test. IMO the Novice move on the test is out of line.

Since this change, we have had only one brave soul test adult bronze MIF at our club.

As I look at the roster for a recent Michigan competition, I see that the Silver level was quite large, with the Bronze level much smaller. I suppose this is the result of those who pushed to test up prior to the implementation of the moves. The Bronze III group at AN didn't even have a qualifying round, they just went right to the final.

I agree that a no grandfathering clause is ludicrous. When I turn 25 in 16 months, I plan on competing at Silver. With no consistent axel or any doubles, I can't compete in Gold and certainly not in Masters.

I passed my Intermediate MIF almost three years ago, and will be testing Novice probably this summer. Hopefully I will pass by the time I'm 25. When I go back and test my Adult moves to compete at AN, after I pass my Gold test, the next standard track test is... Intermediate MIF! That makes no sense! I should not be taking *any* Adult MIF tests since I have obviously demonstrated that I can do all but one of the moves to standard test requirements, which are more stringent.

Not everyone is the same on MIF and freestyle levels, and it's narrow-minded for the USFSA to not understand that.

The USFSA loves to demonstrate how exclusive they are, and this is just one more way. It's snobbery rampant, IMO.

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Sorry, I'm ignorant on this, and I'm an adult skater. But I passed my Adult Gold Free Test in 1998, my Intermediate Free and MIF in 1999-2000, Novice MIF in 2002 and Novice Free in 2003. So I've obviously been out of the Adult testing structure for a while and long before they implemented the new Adult MIF. So I'm a bit lost...

I understand that now in order to pass your Adult Free test you need to pass the corresponding MIF test first (similarly to standard track).

But you guys are saying that, using vesperholly's example, that if she's passed through Novice MIF already while under the age of 25, that because she hasn't passed the Intermediate Free test, that when she turns 25 she'll have to take the Adult Gold Free test and then start the standard track MIF again? Once you pass the Adult Gold Free, hasn't she passed all the Adutl tests? Why wouldn't she just take the Adult Gold free test and then be working on Junior MIF at that point?

Sorry I'm confused...how does the Adult MIF work if you've already passed standard track MIF tests?

The standard track doesn't grandfather over at all. When Vesperholly turns 25, since she plans to compete in adult silver, she will have to test pre-bronze, bronze, and silver MIF and FS. Yes, even though she has passed intermediate MIF. And then if she wants to move up to gold she will have to test gold MIF and FS.

It's a frustrating mess that's really hurt the adult program.
From Canam and Dave:
"Most serious adult skaters were doing MITF long before the adult tests were implemented. They may not have been doing them with testing in mind, but I can name only a handful of adult skaters (and I know many) who weren't at the very least doing them as part of an on-ice warm up."
Hi, I wasn't doing moves before the adult tests. I think that the lack of grandfathering for the moves, and for that matter the pairs is absurd. I agree with Dave, it's not been a good turn of events for the adult skaters who worked to get the program started, and have stuck with it for so long.
I would suggest that this thread, as well as the previous be sent to the adult chair.

I have seen quite a few Adult MIF tests at the test sessions of my club. Of course, it's a very large club. We have MIF tests almost every month, and I'm guessing that no less frequently than every other month there is at least one adult testing MIF. And we've had them at all levels... Pre-Bronze through Gold. At the same time, we've also had adults continuing to test standard track MIF below the "cross-over" point.

I may not agree on the choice and arrangement of elements for the adult MIF tests, but I think the MIF requirement is helping the quality of many of the lower level adult skaters who are testing/competing USFSA. I noticed it this year at the WFSC NY Adult Invitational.

Me... I'm working on Adult Bronze MIF in between working on EW until last spring, Silver dances last spring/summer/fall, and now in between Paso/Blues. I will say that working on the MIF has helped my dance (except when I get lazy and "flicker foot" my 3-turns in dance).

I think the reason that MITF Adult track was initiated was because adults felt like they were being overlooked and wanted a track of their own. Personally, I think that MITF are essential building blocks for overall skating skills. However, the adult track seems to be a sort of mismash of randomly chosen moves. The moves don't really build upon each other like they do in the standard track. In pre-Bronze there is a Prelim move, and in Silver a Pre-Pre move, which makes absolutely no sense. I think that not only should they grandfather in standard track tests, they should allow adults to do either the adult OR standard track MITF tests. But I don't think that adults should be exempt from MITF. Sure, those alternating 3's are not easy, but who ever said skating was easy? MITF build edge quality and presentation skills. These may not be essential to be able to compete, but they sure are if you want to get near the podium, and they will improve your overall skating quality. Who wouldn't want that?

Everyone should really be jumping for joy that they only have to do alternating 3's to the center, and not figure tests where you have to complete a full circle, with a 3-turn right in the middle, another same-sized cirlce with a 3, next to the first circle, and then skate right on top of the pattern 2 more times. Then the judges, who in the meantime have been standing about 2 feet away from you ON THE ICE the entire time, pace out the size of the circle and examine every inch of the circle to make sure there are only edges and not flats. And that is only the 1st figure test!

The Adult Skating Committee initially proposed an Adult Track for MITF in order to give adults another test track. As originally presented, the MITF tests were NOT tied to freeskating tests and vice versa. However, once the other USFSA committees got their hands on it, it was determined that the existing rules require you to pass the same level MITF test prior to taking the freeskating test. By assigning the Adult MITF tests the same levels (pre-bronze, bronze, silver, and gold) as the Adult freeskating tests, they unintentionally insured that we'd all be forced to pass the MITF tests before the freeskating tests.

So rather than scrap the idea or take more time to ponder the implications, the proposed rule change as amended was presented at Governing Council. It was a contentious debate and a very close vote. <sigh>

But even more confusing, the adult track DOES grandfather over to the standard track when you're finished! A skater can pass their Adult Gold MIF and then their next MIF test would be Intermediate MIF. Same for freestyle - when you pass your Adult Gold free, you can next take your Intermediate Free (after passing the Intermediate MIF of course).

This to me is even more unfair and makes absolutely no sense. Any adult moving up from Gold to Masters will have to do this. I think they should have never made the moves tests a pre-requisite and just had them as an additional track. Honestly, I don't think it was about the money (USFSA only collects $4 for every test), it was really people who couldn't understand how different adult skaters are from child skaters.

Anyways, what's the problem, I know some places where you can buy a passing test, I'll just go there.

But i had to do that, and it makes sense to me. Before taking the Intermediate Free test i had to take the Intermediate MIF test first. To me, once you're "out" of the adult track and have passed all teh tests, why shouldn't they expect you to do the same tests as the kids?

Am i understanding you correctly? I'm wondering what about that doesn't make sense to you...do you think that once an adult over 25 passes all adult tests, that they should be able to take the standard freestyle tests WITHOUT taking the MIF too?

Okay, maybe this will help clear things up:

Scenario 1:
Say that you have passed up to the pre-Juv FS test and the Int. Moves test. When you turn 25, since you have not passed Juv FS test, you will have to start all over again on the Adult Track and take all prerequisite Adult moves AND FS test up to the Silver Moves AND FS test in order to compete as a Silver skater.

Scenario 2:
Say that you have passed up to and including the Int. FS test. When you turn 25, you now would have to compete at the Masters Novice level. But you do NOT have to test all those Adult Track tests to compete at that level b/c you already fulfilled that prerequisite.

Scenario 1 is where Jocelyn is currently at. Scenario 2 is what Jocelyn is describing as being "unfair."

Did I confused everyone yet?

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I don't think that's what she meant (but I could be wrong). I think what Vesperholly meant was that it dosen't seem to make sense that a Gold skater moving up to Masters has to go back to standard track and do Intermediate MIF and Free. Perhaps it would make more sense to have a Masters MITF and Free tests in the Adult track, instead of "going back" to standard.

Additionally, and this just occured to me since Vesperholly mentioned it, an adult skater who passes all the tests up to Gold gets to go immediately to Intermediate in the standard track, without having to "repeat" Pre-Pre to Juv. But, an under 25 who has passed standard track tests DOES have to "repeat" what they've passed when they want to take adult tests! HOW is that fair??

Bingo! I was at Governing Council that year, and the line the skate mom delegates bought was "our kids have mandatory moves tests, so the adults should too". (Yes, most delegates are club board members....which are parents) Well, then.........let's have the kids take the adult gold moves test prior to their juv. fs test! There are so many nutty and inconsistent things with the moves that it's hard to know where to begin (and that is on both sides when you consider the grandfathering....or lack of...issue). Here's some of what I remember:

1. The moves were introduced to adults as a separate track.....then the rug was pulled and suddenly they were mandatory because "it's about time adults learn to skate" (quote from gold adult and supported by others). What an insult!

2. The USFSA membership chair said that if mandatory moves were passed it would be damaging to what had been done so far with adult skating, that the number of adult skaters would decline as a result, and that adults were valuable members of clubs and USFSA. Kudos to this guy!!!!!

3. It was proposed from the floor that the moves issue go back to committee because the moves themselves were all over the board, and the "mandatory" requirement was tagged on between adult sectional meetings and GC. This was shot down because it was reported from the then adult chair that adults wholeheartedly supported adult moves at these meetings. What she neglected to say was that we were told it would be an optional track.

4. Adults present stressed that adults are not the same as kids for a multitude of reasons, with time being a major issue for adult skaters, along with different goals (such as not aiming for the Olympics). That was pooh-poohed, and once again our gold skater said that if we adults were serious about skating, we'd just find the time.

The vote was close, thanks to the adults there that did what we could. I talked to a lot of delegates, and got votes changed...but not enough.

Like Flo, I was not doing moves either.......and I too have medaled at AN. I competed for my first time at 45. Since that time I have worked a bit on the Gold moves and given up. I don't have the time to learn the moves and an axel..........so I'll stay Silver for life. Not only is time an issue for me, but at my age my learning curve is a heck of a lot slower than a kid's. And speaking of Silver.........what's with the equivilent for Silver being the same as for Gold (no higher than juv fs)? We still have a ways to go before things are ironed out. Let's just hope that they eventually are.

Michigansk8er

LOL. Basically that repeated what I just posted. We must have posted at the same time. I can see why the system is there, but there are definitely some flaws. With such a diverse group of Adult skaters, though, returning and continuing...where's the happy medium?