That's an excellent point. And, as Skittl pointed out, they don't even come up until the Silver test, so there is time to work on your flexibility before having to test the spirals. In fact, if a skater cannot develop enough flexibility to do a free leg-at-hip-level spiral even after a year of regular, correct stretching (i.e., leg lifts with skates on, followed by at least two sets of hamstring and hip flexor stretches each day, held for at least 30 seconds each), then that lack of flexibility may put the skater at risk for pulled muscles or other injuries when doing common Silver level elements like camel spins.

Speaking of camel spins, I also agree that the sitspin requirement in Bronze should be changed to either sitspin, camel or layback. I am personally *very* glad the layback is never required!

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Same here, mine sucks. At least it was starting to look like a layback before I got injured. Hopefully it will when I get back, although I suppose I'll run into problems getting front spins back since it's my L ankle that's injured.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Rules for adults depened on the individual competition and there aren't many adult only competitions within the UK. Are you interested in the NISA test structure or what's required for adult level competitions? I'm sure several of us can give you information about both .
There's a bit about NISA tests on wiki, the NISA site itself is fairly useless and only tells you about learn to skate! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ng_Association

As for the OP, I have a friend who fits your description and I do to a lesser extent. My friend isn't quite at the level of our first MIF test but is working on his axel and has fairly solid jumps up to a flip with a hit or miss lutz. I'm pretty much the same level jump wise and getting ready to sit NISA 1 field moves.

I think it can be a lot easier for men to get jumps early like someone else said, they have more power and can get the roation just because they've got the height. My friend probably has enough height on his jumps for doubles but just doesn't quite have the right technique yet.

I disagree with your statement above. Basic skills is essential when learning anything advanced, including jumps and spins. The more comfortable you are on your basic skills, the easier it is to learn MITF, finding your edge on spins (and not the toe pick), learning your loop jump (outside edge take off), back spin, 3 turn into a salchow jump, etc. Basics are essential part of skating. Without them, learning advanced elements is much more difficult to accomplish.

I am sad to hear that you had a bad experience with a coach. That definitely can make a difference in attitude and experience. I tried out several coaches before picking one, but I know with LTS, you don't get that option.

Well, can you explain what is there for you to disagree with. I do think basic skills are essential for learning things advanced. Whether other people agree with you/us or not, I don't care.

I am currently practicing simple moves and plan to learn more moves stuff. But I would be happy to skate with people who simply does not want to do moves at all. I used to be one of those. Now I like moves better and am interested in learning some classical figures too.

From reading the posts in this thread, you can see that there are people who can learn jumps without doing moves. If there are such people who can learn jumps without doing moves, I don't see why people cannot teach jumps without students learning moves first. Of course, whether coaches are willing to teach in this way is the choice of the individual coaches. I am sure betterment in moves will help improve jumps. But for a person who simply does not enjoy moves and does not care about the improvement in jumps from learning moves, then it's their choice.

We should not set up a system to make people learn in particular way simply because some of us think it is better. The system should be more accommodating.

You can learn things any way or in any order you want--you just can't test free until you have the corresponding MITF. If you have the time to learn the MITF, and you want to test, they really do help the rest of your skating a lot. Work on whatever you love, as long as you're aware that every basic skill you master makes your jumps and spins easier! (And don't hurt yourself, or fall on someone else!)

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You miss 100% of the shots you never take.--Wayne Gretzky

If I teach someone how to do a waltz jump I will use the "lingo" that is commonly used and if you have no prior moves experience, then we will have to go through THAT lesson (or lessons) first before I can teach you the jump, just so we will end up on the same page. I cannot teach you by having you mimic me, and have you flail about and do the jump poorly, and have me not be able to correct you because you have a poor mechanical accomplishment and understanding of the basics-it doesn't work that way in the skating world. Yes, you would be able to do the jump but it would be a poor and ungraceful representation of what it COULD be.

Having everyone start with the basics (moves) and understanding the mechanics from square one and moving forward in progression makes it easier to move on to the more complicated things.

You could, I suppose, have a coach teach you a "shorthand" way of things, but you would lack the solid foundation of the basics. It would be like learning to read by memorization instead of learning phonics-eventually you would reach a point where you would not progress and have to learn the phonics.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Actually, that example doesn't quite work. I learned to read as a kid by the memorization method, and have always been a very advanced reader. I suppose I "know" phonics, but I could read literature far above my age level before I was "taught" them. I can totally imagine that some people are capable of learning jumps "as a whole". However, I also agree that basic skating skills are fundamental and should not be ignored. Which is why I'm now concentrating on figures and dance. I want to lose that "adult skater" look.

Very true. Basic skating skills are SO important, they're part of the complete package--there is more to a program than your jumps and spins, and I'd much rather watch someone whose skating skills are strong. If you watch a medium-large group of skaters in an adult competition, you'll have a good mix (strong basic skills, jumps/spins aren't as strong, others are even on both, some have good jumps and spins but everything in between needs work). It's the skaters with the strong basic skills who almost always place at the top, or can have a bad skate and still place well because their skating skills hold them up in the placements.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

In some ways, people that don't want to learn the correct basic skills and just want to spin and do jumps, pardon me for sounding harsh, sound like children. Of course that's what I want to do! But learning the foundations has made my jumps and spins so much more. How many times have I heard kids state that they want to do the fun stuff and not do the basic skills and take the time to the learn them so they can apply them to the more advanced elements? And of course the answer is you have to take the basics to learn the advanced. I'm not trying to be super brash, but the reality of skating is you have to get the basics under your belt in order to achieve said results. Also, for those that don't want to learn the basic skills and desire to go "play" have a higher risk of injuring themselves or doing the elements incorrectly and not being familiar with how the blade works. Even if its for fun. There's no reason or value in accommodating to people that don't want to learn the basics first and place themselves in dangerous situations without the knowledge. It doesn't make sense and on top of that can hold a liability factor for the club or coach if an injury occurred attempting a higher level element without teaching the foundations.

Yes, there are a few out there that accidentally do an axle or start jumping without any basic skills what-so-ever. They have natural talent for it or have no fear of getting hurt. There are those few.

And to explain further on what to disagree with, you are contradicting yourself in your early part of your statement agreeing with me that basic skills are essential but then revert back to disagreeing with it that we should accommodate people and not teach basics? Sort of confused here.

I gave several examples in my last statement to a few advanced elements that basic skills area applied to.

Oops! Careful. Don't go there. Trust me. You can see what happened on the other board. Wasn't pretty.......believe me....

Oh, btw. Interesting side note. Never gotten hurt. Supposedly have very bad basic skills on ice, but have landed up to 2flip consistantly. Now working on 2axel and 3sal and 3toe. Still haven't gotten hurt. Wear a LOT of padding. Padded tights. Bubblewrap over knees/elbows. Would be willing to do up to 2flip without padding. Would never dream of attempting the other jumps without it. Why don't ice skaters wear more padding???? On roller we ALL wore padding. Always. Also.....every ice skater I did know who got hurt attempting jumps was taking lessons and had beautiful basic skills......Just an observation. But then, to be fair, I am a tank. (All of us "roller derby queens" are tanks.) Two of the teenaged girls I saw get hurt had little-to -no body fat and were not wearing any padding (of course!)

As someone else has already said, you can find a lot more information on Wikipedia than you can on the NISA site (which figures!). Feel free to PM me if you wish, though.

Going back to the original comment, of course the reason Moves tests were brought in was due to the demise of figures. The older coaches still lament this, and my own coach, for one, periodically makes me do figures to help my basic skating (they come out more like 69s than figure 8s, though, which is why I don't do them at the Mountain Cup). Skaters who have the "tricks" but whose basic skating is sadly lacking do end up not getting very far, as judges aren't fooled!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Broke my own rule. Now responding. (Hope this is a good idea.)

I agree with you that the judges won't be "fooled," so why not let us play? I really wouldn't mind comming in last (behind people with single jumps) as long as I was allowed to enter. (And most judges are like your coach and would probably score me very harshly just to make a point.) Oh well, at least I got to skate. It is not about the medal or trophy. I (WE) just want to skate. We are adults. If we get hurt it is our problem. This is a dangerous sport. Anyone can get hurt at anytime. Anyone.

You can disagree but please don't attack me.

PS. Don't care how great their basic skills are. Still think skaters need bubblewrap. (Padded tights are good, too.)

I got hurt doing off-ice jumping. It is a very dangerous sport. I totally agree. But its definitely an addiction for me and maybe its my personality, but I want to learn every aspect of skating I can. I'm also naturally athletic and pick up just about any sport pretty easily. I am very grateful for that ability.

I've been in sports since an early age, nothing dance/skating related until I got older (my parents (mostly my dad) wanted to me to be groomed into a pro basketball player, but I HATED it, and I am super tall, 6'1"). Did track and field for a long time and did really well. Now I skate and dance. I am super competitive and I miss competing. Hence, why I decided to pursue adult skating. So I know my perspective is different compared to others and that may also be where my view points come from.

No worries, Pandora. I am not trying to come across as an attacker. If I am in any ways, not my intention and I apologize. I am just super passionate.

Yes, a place for us.....ALL of us. There is no place for some of us to go. We can't compete. Need some sort of "open" catagory. That is why I started thread. Need to find THE OTHERS.
Contact me privately if you agree with me and/or are in the same boat. Don't risk the board because it might get ugly.

You know, I agree with the padding, but not sure if I'd be able to move.

The bubblewrap works great!! Haven't had a problem with the padded tights except that I look SO FAT!! (I'm a "big girl" to begin with.) When I put up my ice vid I will look 10000 lbs.
He is link to me on inlines. (You can see bubblewrap in action.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFe1BR1EGr8
The instructions on how to make the pads are on the comments section.

If you want to compete, you have to meet the requirements. The rules of the organizations have worked for years and years. If you truly hate them, get involved and get them to change. And they do change- no figures, for example, revised moves for another- but I don't think many people are going to agree with your cause. Or start an organization that meets a different need (recreational vs eligible-track, yep, two organizations exist for that.)

If USFSA doesn't work for you, try out ISI- there are no moves requirements there, just one footwork sequence per level.


And those who excel in freestyle but not moves aren't the only ones who can't compete. Those who excel in moves but not freestyle get stuck too.

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I was in this category several yrs ago. It took a lot of effort to overcome my deficiencies in MITF. When I started taking lessons as an adult, there may have been no MITF tests, certainly not adult. I was a natural spinner and focused on that. Eventually I realized if I want to be an overall better skater, I need to get some MITF background, which I did. I took ice dance also. In a 2-hr session, I spent over 1/2 of it on MITF and dance. I did this for yrs and enjoyed it. Now I can really skate the whole rink before doing a "trick". For me, it was worth the effort.

Before I was trapped in the middle spinning w no effective way to fill the rink w beautiful skating. My other skills improved also. I would strongly recommend working on MITF/dance to anyone who really wants to become a better skater. And do it concurrently w FS. They really do go hand-in-hand.

Kay

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I second Skittl's notion: skate in the ISI league instead. There are still levels based on skills, but far less emphasis on footwork and stroking. If you love footwork, there are events for that at competitions. Many competitions offer events that focus on spins or jumps in isolation, which gives skaters that aren't interested in performing a program an option. You still have to make it look good with strong skating - a "fling-and-a-prayer" jump won't get you very far up the podium.

However, I disagree with the "free for all" notion of competition where no one takes any tests and it's every man/woman for themselves. That's a mishmosh that no one at a lower level would ever enter, given the odds of having a former USFSA Senior skater pop in with a few well-executed triples. Honestly, I wouldn't even want to watch an event like that - it would be impossible to judge unless it were element-based.

The artistry that accompanies tricks is what makes figure skating unique and enchanting. I love to watch programs with strong basic skating skills, even if the skater's spins or jumps are slow/weak. I don't like watching skaters who look like they're about to trip at any minute, grind to a noisy stop before entering a spin, and cheat the entire jump - entrance, takeoff, in-air, and landing. The skater's not really doing the maneuver if they are doing it poorly and yes, the judges' scores would reflect that clearly. Artistry and skills go hand in hand.

Skaters with good basic skating skills continue to work on improving throughout their skating career, so starting out determined to ignore that need is ignorant in my opinion.

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I think the problem is that kids are allowed to include axels at prepreliminary level, easy doubles at prepreliminary, and all doubles at juvenile.

Adults are not allowed to include any doubles at all until gold level, which is approximately equivalent to juvenile. The prerequisite moves test is actually closer to intermediate.

For most adult skaters, this is appropriate.

But there is an athletic minority of adults who are able to do jumps at approximately the same overall skill level as the kids. And those are the adults who are not allowed to showcase their best talents until and unless they master other skills that may take several years to bring up to test standard.

They might get discouraged and give up on the sport if they don't feel welcome to showcase what they can do best.

Perhaps there would be a benefit to an "open" or "adult" Preliminary event that requires only the Preliminary or Bronze MITF test and allows the same jump content as Preliminary. And an "Way-Open Juvenile" event that requires Juvenile or Gold MITF and allows all doubles.

The "young adult" category for 18- to 24-year-olds that used to be offered at nonqualifying events before the adult age minimum was lowered to 21 had more generous jump limits. Maybe take that as a model but let the more athletic adults in their late 20s, 30s, or even 40s who match that overall skill level include their best jumps.

Why tell the 12-year-old with a double salchow and iffy backward threes she can compete with all her jumps, but the 32-year-old with the exact same skill level that she can't?

If anything, it would make more sense to require the 12-year-old to wait. Her jumping ability is likely to keep improving as she improves her basic skills. The adult isn't getting any younger and is more likely to lose the double sal before she masters the threes.

Okay, I'm a little confused here......you have a lot of training in roller, so you must have learned some basics there, which would at least partly carry over to the ice.

On the video you posted, you do some very nice footwork, including at least one bracket, which is intermediate level moves. There were also power pulls (juvenile), and several other things.

It looks to me, like if you really wanted to compete, you could learn the patterns & go out & test the moves quite easily, given your proficiency on the inlines. You'd knock off at least the first few levels with probably very little effort--based on that short clip, I'd venture to say that you'd get to Intermediate before the patterns even started to get very challenging. If you don't want to pay for lessons, you can learn the patterns from videos, the rule book, and probably a friend or two if you had specific questions.

So......I'm not really sure what your problem is??? It's clearly not that you *can't* do the moves--it's just that you don't want to. Which is fine, but there are some people out there who truly struggle with the footwork, and do gravitate more to jumps/spins. You don't fall into that category at all.

I'm not attacking you, I just don't understand what the problem is. In many sports, there is criteria for competing. If you don't want to fit the criteria, that's fine, but why is it such a big deal just because you don't feel like meeting it?

In adult skating there is a lot of discussion about how to deal with aging athletes, degrading skills, less flexible bodies, etc., to try to keep the sport accessible & allow for some measure of progress/success. Your situation is very different than that.

*Running from the flames now, sorry, but it's just my opinion.

Whilst not getting involved in the moves vs elements debate (I love moves personally and see too many kids who can do the jumps but have poor basic skating (although the British system doesn't let them compete unless their moves catch up)) I would like to clarify how our competition system is working. We're "borrowing" the bronze, silver and gold classifications but what you are allowed to do in each level is defined in terms of elements, so bronze is no axel, silver it's allowed (at least expected among the younger adults, not so much in the older ones) and gold is where the doubles seem to go (don't quote me as I don't normally read beyond bronze as I can't do an axel). Spins are equally classified (eg no flying spins at bronze). It enables those who've got stronger elements to be in the right classification (as you say it's unfair for a beginner to compete against an ex-senior) but allows for slightly less emphasis on moves. But as everyone's saying you do need a certain ability to skate to get on the podium and I question some people's assertions about how bad their moves are. They might be lagging, but I think anyone who's landing doubles must have a certain amount of blade control, even if they're not practicing moves patterns regularly.
The real advantage of the system is that it allows people to move back down the levels as people return to skating after many years break or their bodies start to fail and they aren't able to do much more than a single jump. There aren't too many great mismatches. There are odd people who could possibly be up a category and others who might do better down a level, but on the whole it works fine.

Hi Pandora,

I believe almost every competition (USFSA) I've entered has had a "no test" division. This is essentially your "open" skating option. Granted there are required elements but nobody is forcing you to do them, I suppose you could go out and just do whatever it is you like to the best of your ability and see where the judges put you:]

I just hate to see anyone give up the sport because of certain aspects they don't like - just keep doing your thing!

Because these are non-qualifying levels, I've never seen an age restriction on them, maybe that varies. An adult could compete in any of these three levels and include their axel and doubles.

But I have to say, if they did REALLY well in it (outclassing everyone, rather than just placing middle, or even a close win), you'd have some REALLY pissed off parents for beating out there 6-10 year old.

But to compete these levels you STILL have to take MITF tests. And to be honest, while pre-pre is a gimmie (well, except for adults who can't do a spiral. I could when I was at that level, but can't anymore...) preliminary isn't an easy moves test, and pre-juv definetly isn't.

Juvenile already has an "open juv" category that adults can compete in. An adult man at our rink did compete open juv at regionals. He is an adult start skater (and a GOOD one) so he said it was his crowning moment to enter regionals. I think he plans to continue on and can hopefully enter a qualifying category


(Age requirements listed in the USFSA rulebook: Sr, Jr, Nv: none; Int: under 18; Juv: under 13; Open Juv: 13 or over; no age requirement is listed for Pre-Juv, Pre, or Pre-Pre)

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What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)