While browsing Riedell's "Spotted!" page, I found out about an upcoming movie called "Blades of Glory". A loophole to allow same-gender pairs to skate? Doubtful, at best.

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I just saw a photo from that--Will Ferrell was totally wearing double-runners.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
--Thomas Jefferson

www.signingtime.com ~sign language fun for all!

Ok blue111moon, since someone (I wont mention who) petitioned the ISU and the USFSA to allow females to compete in trousers, lets apply this restriction to you.

You go out in a skirt one day and to get some gas, the attendant on duty says sorry, we don't have any gas. Meanwhile another female customer comes in and she is allowed to get gas, you ask, "what about her?" and the attendant says she's allowed to get gas since she's wearing trousers. Then a man shows up wearing a skirt and he's allowed to get gas, now your really perplexed and ask again. The attendant says "He's a man, we don't care what they wear when they get gas" Ok, so your a little miffed, you go to station after station looking for gas and nobody will sell you any.

But finally, two hundred miles from home, you find a station that thinks it's silly that someone wouldn't sell you gas just because your wearing a skirt. You do some more searching and find that it's most true, only the stations around your house are the ones who impose only females in trousers can get gas.

So after a little while of getting fed up with having to go so far to be treated fairly, you go and get gas localy one day wearing trousers. They say "sorry, no sale" And why may you ask? They won't sell you any gas because they know you wear skirts when your not getting gas.

You have no idea as some time ago, Amelia Jenkins Bloomer said it was hogwash for females to only be allowed to wear skirts. Because of her and others, you have the right to wear trousers or skirts and not face detrimental actions by others for doing so. And as I said, you can even compete in trousers or a unitard if you so wish, not even males get that choice.

Another example, not skating related, I tagged along with two friends of mine to a bar, one male, one female. Male was wearing a tank top and shorts and open toed shoes, female was wearing a cami top, jeans, and tennis shoes. My male friend was asked to change his shirt and shoes while my female friend was not. It's not untypical to see a female wearing bikini tops, micro minis, and open toed shoes and nobody cares, while a male is told to cover more or leave. On top of that females get the privlige of ladies night and pay less for their drinks while males are not allowed this freedom.

Staying out of skating, have you ever been to a formal party or wedding? Why is it that all the males dress alike and all the females dress differently? (except for bridesmaids) And lets not even get into if two females show up wearing the same thing! And of course you have the Oscars and Emmy awards in which all the females are on the spotlight as to what they are wearing, while little if any attention is given to the males who mostly wear the same ol styles and colors.

Back to skating, I argued the point with one club that I could do an artistic event and wear a skirt since there are less restriction on attire. This did little good as they soon changed the rules to say that males are not allowed to wear skirts at ANY time. Of course if I did an interp and wanted to wear a skirt, I would be compelled to go the whole nine yards and physicaly look like a female. Females however can portray anything they want and wear a skirt or trousers and nobody really thinks twice about it. In fact, they can even do it in their freeskate (think Machelle Kwan portraying a matador)

As for the rules, the USFSA does not control clubs or coaches, they only control competitions. Almost everyone falls back on this though and uses it as an excuse to stop males from wearing something other then trousers even though females wore them even though they were restricted to skirts only before the rule change. I tested in a skirt, I ended up with a retry, but I still did it, same as female who wants to test in trousers.

My attitude? Yes, perhaps it does play a part considering all the crap I've gone throgh with detrimental people and I still continue skating. I obviosly would have a better demeanor if I could just skate and be treated fairly like everyone else.

Trousers = lessons is not a compromise, a compromise would be for four days you wear trousers and on the fifth day you can wear a skirt. Does anyone want to do such a thing? No, if I was female however this wouldn't be an issue as I could wear all kinds of things including shorts! (yes, even males around here are not allowed to wear shorts on club ice)

As for race, I agree with you on this, I only use it as an African American described me as facing the same issues they do only that I could change my clothing and be accepted whereas they cannot (course I can't ether anymore no matter what I'm wearing)

I also know that you may say that females are not equal, thats why they have womens rights and such, but at least if your not treated equaly, you can do somethign about it. Unlike me who's neighbors dog has more rights then I do when it comes to equality.

So if it is all my fault, then how come I can go somewhere else and be treated fairly?

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Doesn't seem to be a choice as nobody will even talk to me.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

I could be wrong, but they have that here, it's called similar pairs, course I have yet to see two males doing it, I've only seen two females doing it.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

If wearing dresses is an important part of who you are as a person, then you are taking the right road. Keep at it and don't give in.

Different things are crucially important to all of us, but it is not always as obvious as your particular preference. I guess it goes beyond preference in your case. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that you feel you must/need to wear womens outfits while figure skating. More-over, I think you're pointing out that clothes are clothes, and that you don't look at them as gender specfic.

Did I get it?

In any event, just because I don't hold any personal importance to your preferences/cause, I understand your rights. Also realize this (I'm sure you do), you're up against strong societal repugnance. In my opinion you are unlikely to win acceptance in your lifetime.

Good luck.

Jon

Close enough for horseshoes Jon,

It's not that I must/need to wear dresses when skating, I do wear trousers or leggings when I want, I just want the choice in being able to wear either one.

But I can also see what your saying since I won't give in that it is a "must" thing.

But you are correct when in saying that I don't think clothing is "S" specific, other then some specific requirements for certain body shapes, one could wear the other. A prime example of this is shoes, the only difference between male and female shoes is length and width, other then that one could wear the other, unless your a male fo course and society says your not allowed. Another major example is color, pink for females, blue for males, not so long ago this was opposite. And then of course skirts, both "S"'s used to wear skirts, trousers didn't exist, over the ages males lost the choice in wearing skirts, and they also lost the ability in showing off their body. Any male doing so now is percieved to be "gay" which is part of the problem with acceptance.

And very true about societal pressures, I'm not sure when it will be acceptable for males to be treated equaly and not live in fear, but hopefully one day, it will be achieved.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Actually in most parts of Asia this doesn't exist still - blue & pink are not defined by sex - and you will often find baby boys wearing pink in Asia because they don't gender define them.

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AW1
mum to Miss Lil (6yrs old)
mum to be to #2 due in March 08

I disagree, some men can pull off wearing a pink shirt or shorts without being perceived as gay. What people msot seem to perceive as being gay is particular gestures and tones of one's voice.

Aehem, better not ask me that one...

I think now you're taking it a bit far with your comparison.

Why should they... what reason would there be for it?

How do you figure that? What gives you reason to think so?

Excuse me, but where did you get that idea? Isn't it true that pants on women skaters are still frowned upon quite a bit? And why can't males express themselves... or put it differently, why do you think women can do so more than men?

That's not what I said... I said why not fit in better... and isn't that wat the majority of us do on a daily basis?

I don't quite get what you're reffering to there... what thing is allowed?

Steven[/QUOTE]

Comparing wearing skating attire to being forced to change one's ancestry is making an inaccurate analogy; better would be a rule requiring business attire at work, or well, to use the gas station example: 'no shirt, no shoes, no service', or whether one can wear a yarmulke under a military hat (answer is: no, says the Supreme Court).

And in that matter, legally, you're without a leg to stand on. Private businesses and groups pretty much can enforce whatever dress codes (within reason: no race/gender/religion discrimination-proxies) they want on the premises. Uniforms, coat & tie, hair color and even makeup for women (just upheld this past year), piercings, all upheld. There's no right to personal wardrobe in the US constitution. What you do at home is fine; entering the public and commercial sphere is subject to the private individuals/groups contracting.

That said, I'm not sure why your rink is so worked up about this. But they're well within their rights, and I suspect they're worried about financial losses from concerned parents.

I'm also not sure why you're very worked up about this. I don't know if you consider yourself transgendered, enjoy wearing women's clothing, or are just doing this to rile up the authorities.

But I would suggest that many women skaters, myself included, don't own a skating skirt, so it seems that a skirt is not an essential part of 'dressing like a woman'.

Perhaps for lessons, you could wear women's style close-fitting pants and jacket, and a wrap skirt you can add on afterwards. Or just bright 'non-male' colors.

Very well said!

Unless he can't find a coach who will take him...

Well, the coach has a right to chose his/her students, correct? While I empathize with the situation, I also think there is more to the problem than what the skater wants to wear at this point. Bridges have probably been burned?

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blades, gary, Lucy, Emily, take care of Aiden and Sami. Sami is my sweetest heart, and always will be, forever. RIP Cubby Boy, my hero dog.

And why do you think is that?
It's because men like to see women in those kind of clothes.

That has nothing at all to do with freedom but simply with supply and demand. The businesses in question need to attract more female customers to make their male customers happy and so they offer incentives... that's all.

You tell me?
How many men do you know who would like to see that change? Apparently not enough because otherwise it would change... I for one often times envie the guys for it... would be nice not to have to worry about what to wear...

Now that's not true at all. They always show what the guys are wearing too and there's differences there too, granted a bit more subtle but they always point them out. It's simply a matter of preference...

I can see their point very well... afterall which business likes to be ridiculed for their decisions? And that's IMHO exactly what would hapen if they'd let you skate in a dress especially at a competition... that couldn't possibly be in your interest either, could it?
And let's face it... a male doing an artistic program in a skirt would be more than just silly... now, if you were to do a comical spotlight routine that would be a different story... have you tried that route?

And that's just it... you can skate and you can be treated fairly, you yourself choose not to!

Well, welcome to our world!!!

I agree and if any of you have teenage boys you probably know that pink was the color to wear a year or two ago. My son had bright pink laces in his skater shoes, wore pink jelly bracelets and had shirts with bright pink print. One of the shirts he was concidering was pink and read "Real men wear pink". During that same time frame pink polos for guys were all the rage and many young men wore them without looking a hair gay. As you correctly stated, people don't perceive men to be gay simply by the clothes they wear but rather by the way they portray themselves.

Thanks, I should have pointed out that most of what I'm talking about applies to western society and the detrimental actions related to skating mostly confined to the Cleveland, OH area.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

This whole discussion has been played out umpteen times on various boards, forums, lists, etc. and it's always the same arguments over and over. And it usually starts the same way: Steven finds a way to slip into a thread that he wears dresses on the ice, somebody who doesn't know him is surprised, Steven gets to post an explanation, and next thing you know, we've got a 10 page thread and irritated admins.

I've pretty much kept my mouth shut in all the other 100 previous threads, but I think I'll throw in my 2 cents. I've gotta disagree with ya, Steven. Everyone, at some time or another, has to decide how much we're willing to conform to society's norms. You have consciously decided not to conform to the "men wear pants" norm on the ice. As a result you're facing the consequences of your choice: can't find a coach, not allowed on freestyles, etc. while violating the norm. In short, you have chosen your principles over skating, which is fine because it's your choice. But stop complaining, then, about having to face the consequences of your choce. And stop declaring that you're being discriminated against. It isn't discrimination There is no legal right to wear anything you want anywhere you want. What you're experiencing is merely society enforcing what it sees as its norms (regardless of how wise or silly they are), which you have intentionally chosen to violate. You've chosen this path, so now you have to walk it.

Actually, that rule doesn't govern interp costumes. Steven wore a beautiful dress for couples interp with Chandra at Wyandotte. PAUL MATA wore a TUTU for couples interp in the SAME EVENT (and who could ever imagine Paul doing that! ) and Joe Decker won a Silver Medal in Masters Interp at AN's dressed as Heidi.

I understand why some coaches refuse to provide lessons to Steven - they kowtow to peer pressure and parent pressure. Is that right? No. If you lived in Chicago, you'd have any number of coaches, myself included. Does that do you good living in Ohio? No. Keep looking, you'll find someone who will take the plunge. Good luck!

True, but given all thats been said, wouldn't that be the rational thing to do to gain "acceptance" and fit in?

You answerd that yourself, because they don't fit in, blondes are always picked on because of their hair color and disabled people are not "normal" compared to the vast majority of the population.

Because I've advertised for a coach and interested people have called me, but after I gave them my name, they hang up.

Pants may be frowned upon, but you do have the choice, males are flatly denied the choice of such a freedom.

Males can't express themselves because of societal pressures and rules put into place to limit a males ability to express themselves. On top of that many males (and females) stereotype males into only being allowed to do certain things. Figure skating is such a female dominated sport that males taking it up are bullied for doing so and switch to other "manly" endeavors where they will not be ridiculed. I could talk about all kinds of males who are no longer in the sport due to the harrasment they get for just thinking or participating in figure skating. Most of the holdbacks for males stems mostly from other males and societal norms "thats the way it's always been" type mentality.

Because a female doing it is thought as to bettering herself while a male doing it is thought to becoming subservant. No-one can deny the opression females face in life, they get paid lower wages, have to prove themselves more capable and generaly have to be better educated then their male counterparts to be treated with some kind of fairness. In rare cases one could argue physical limitations, but I've seen some females (and some of my female employees) that I'd pit against any typical male. We could go on an on with this and name many more examples, females can do "and" males are usually allowed to do "or".


So if we don't fit in, such discrimination should be allowed then?


The ability of self expression, what other sport is there where one can coose their own music, wear clothing that fits their selection, and within the limits of their level, express themselves?

One is not trying to put a ball in a hoop, over a net, or in a hole, put puck in a net, complete a lap, or countless other ways to be scored.

Other then synchro and pairs, skating is pretty much an individualistic sport, its about the person, not a team or how many points they get.

And it is also why I like to watch interpretive events.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

But should such attire rules specify as to what "S" can wear what?

Buisness attire, females in the past were forced to wear skirts, society and all, but now females can wear trousers and even ties and nobody blinks an eye. But if a male says he doesn't want to wear a tie, or would like to wear skirt, he can get fired.

And while a gas station could say "no shirt, no shoes, no service" it cannot say "no men in skirts allowed"

That falls under public accomidation, most private clubs are not private even though they say they are and most rules only restrict attire when it comes to safety. And true the US Constitution does not protect ones wardrobe, but there are some states like New Jersey that make it illegal to discriminate between the "S"'s in any form.

I haven't had too many problems with rinks, I've had to argue my case at times, but it usually hasn't been an issue. Financial loss would be something to consider and mostly comes to awareness.

Ack, this for some reason is such a hard idea to grasp, it's just something I like, I don't see as to why I'm supposed to be restriced in what I wear just because I'm a male.

Wasn't true not that long ago.

I already explained this once, compromise should be a two way street.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

You know what - it would be nice if we all could wear whatever we liked and nobody would fuss. Unfortunately, skating isn't like that. Women ice dancers are still required to wear a skirt when competing and testing, which means that at least one Moslem skater I know felt she was discriminated against.

When I was growing up, I was taught that you can please some of the people all of the time, and quite possibly all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time, and you're an idiot to try!

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Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

And some women like to see me in the clothing I choose, with such mentality it's no wonder a female is treated like a piece of meat instead of a human being.

Umm, no, if you were to do some research it's to attract more males as supposedly there will be more females due to the reduced drink rates. It's still discrimination.

"We've always done it this way and see no reason to change"

It will change, sooner or later as I'm not the only male on this planet who thinks a males choice of attire is too narrowly defined.

"Life can be lived more fully if people simply quit pretending to be who they were told to be, and be who they really are…" -Doug Firebaugh-

We'll have to agree to disagree, the amount of coverage and attention the males get pales in comparison to what females get.

I've already given an example of this, it's only wrong because thinking makes it so.

And why should I be restricted to only certain events for my self expression? Oh, thats right, I'm a male, were not allowed.

Um, no, it's the detrimental actions of others. (sorry, I'm just funny that I treat everyone equal until they do something that makes me think otherwise so you can stop at the "it's because you wear a skirt" spiel)

Huh? Umm, no, I'm quite happy being a male.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

The only reason I can come up with a bridge being burned is because I choose nontraditional attire, anything more then that I cannot say as everyone around here refuses to talk to me.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Ahh yes, the hijacked thread scenario, well I started this one and yes I hijack my own threads. I try not to hijack other threads but because people (and myself) are so wound up about, it just happens. (maybe next time we can get a moderator to move it?)

As for the norm, why is this so? And why can't it be changed? Not too long ago we used to walk ten paces to solve our disagrements. We've become a bit more civilized since then, why can't we be more tolerant of a males choice of attire?

As for legality, I disagree, soiciety may say as to what "S" should wear what, but legality will step in and enforce that opinion (yes, OPINION!)

I marched in the Million Skirted Men march in NY a couple years ago, some males said they wanted the right to wear a skirt. but I disagree, our right to wear a skirt is not denied by law, only by societal pressures and perceived norms.

Females often don't get equal pay just because they are a female, that was a societal norm, but now it is a right and a law to get equal pay. (yes, yes, I know equal pay and treatment does not exist everywhere, it does exist with me however)

Males should have the same right to equal treatment no matter their choice of attire. So does such equal treatment need to be made into law? Or can we, as a society, accept people who do not fit into the norm? Obviosly we cannot.

And lets stop with the nonsense that one chooses their clothing but can't change their "S" or ancestry. Equality of attire can't be true when females can wear anything males can while males cannot wear anything females can even when such things were made specificaly for males!

For males to be discriminted against for such a choice is pathetic.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."