I don't mind dropping the age level (but then I'm not nor have I ever been a Class I and I was only in II for a year or so). My concern is whether these new Adults will bother to test up to their ability or look at the levels and think - "Hey, all I need for Silver is an axel - wow, I can beat the pants off of everyone there!" (which I have overheard from quite a few young adults, who apprently labor under the dellusion that because I'm old, I'm also deaf )
I would hope that skaters with axels and some doubles would test up to Gold, if only to challenge themselves, rather than stay at lower levels for the dubious satisfaction of collecting medals, but I will not be surprised when they don't.

As for local competitions, I know my club already makes every effort to split the Adult events by age whenever numbers allow. If dropping the age brings more entries in, that's a good thing for the club, since it will mean a greater possibility of splitting levels.

This has been an interesting discussion so far. I was supposed to attend as a delegate, but decided not to go, so I sent my proxy with another delegate. I instructed that delegate to vote in favor of this particular proposal. I weighed out the cons against the pros, and decided this would be in the best intereste of adult skating in the long run. Making 21-24 year olds compete against 12 year olds is brutal.

However, I too share some of the concerns expressed here. But my issue isn't so much AGE, it's standard track TEST LEVEL. Before I elaborate, let me state a couple of assumptions that affect my argument. In general:

* The younger you start, the faster you progress.
* The younger you start, the more comfortable you are on the ice.

*Therefore, age matters. (If it didn't, we wouldn't have bothered to acknowledge it by making an Adult track, and putting in age classes in the first place.)
* And, experience on the ice matters.

(Yes, there are always exceptions to rules, but these generalizations have held up pretty well in my experience.)

My concern is that skaters who've passed standard freestyle tests and competed at those levels before their early 20s will have an unfair advantage over the adult-onset skaters who started skating in their early 20s or later -- because of the test requirements vs. competition skill difference. If you've passed your Juvenile Freeskating test and competed at that level at the age of 20, you most likely exhibited a pretty impressive array of skating skills, including a variety of spins, flying spins, double jump combos, and tricky footwork. Think about what you see at the Juvenile level at your local comp or regionals. So all you have to do now is turn 21, take a few adult freeskating tests (piece of cake), and compete at the Silver level. You can pack your program with everything but the double jumps. Sounds like a slaughter, huh?

While I would hope that such a skater would have the courage to test up to Gold or even Intermediate so they can skate Masters, there's nothing making them do that. And if all you've ever known of competing is the prevalent standard track sentiment of "hold 'em back so they win," you're more likely to do so. I too have heard some of the teenaged skaters talk about competing in the adult events so they can "clean up."

To me, the problem isn't really age. The problem is allowing pre-juv and juv competitors to compete against adult onset skaters. Age just exacerbates it. I do assume that the adult onset skater is at a disadvantage. And since the original intent of the adult test/competition structure was to allow people who started skating as adults to compete more fairly against their peers, I think this undermines that intent.

Having standard trackers test & compete in the adult ranks was unusual when all this started. It's becoming more & more common. Which is great, but I think it's time to start thinking about splitting this up a little better.

As an aside, I have no idea where this "AN is dying out" thing is coming from. It seemed pretty healthy to me. If you want to speculate as to why all the Bronze I's disappeared, read the umpteen other threads. Good guesses so far: money issues, bottlenecking because of the mandatory moves (as predicted by yours truly), fear of "sandbaggers," KC not being a party town (heck, any city can be a party town if the right people are there), returning standard trackers testing into silver and above, etc.

Good discussion.

I'm not sure sandbagging will be as much of an issue. Sandbagging happens on the lower levels to ensure a child does well in their age group and has success before moving up (no reason a ten year old should compete at Nationals). But there's a pretty big publicity/financial/Olympic incentive to sandbag at that level; not as much of a reason to sandbag so you can what, win Adult Silver Class I? The teenagers may think that way now; they're kind of conditioned to. But the young 20s skaters I know think Adult Nationals is a bit of a joke -- certainly not a prestige thing worth sandbagging over.

From the USFSA's perspective, it probably makes more sense to encourage returning skaters than adult-onset ones, if only because there's a lot more potential returners.

I have to ask -- are the 25-year-olds regularly walloping the 35 year olds now? I haven't heard that being discussed as a problem, and it should be if the age gap is that big of a concern; 25 year olds could be returning Juvenile skaters now.

That said, I find it a little strange that a Juvenile skater isn't grandfathered into the Silver level at least. I guess they don't want to discourage people from skating who maybe skated a couple years as a kid but have been off the ice for 20 years might not have the skill set to be wholly competitive at a Silver level. But I think I would find it annoying to be able to do doubles but to have to take a Pre-Bronze test (and pay for it, and find the test session to do it) in order to compete, and I think that could be as much a barrier to entry as anything else.

As for why no Bronze Is? I imagine within a year or so I'll probably be at that level or close to it; but I'm not inclined to spend hundreds of dollars to go and do a couple of single jumps. I like the idea of performing and even doing a local competition, but Nationals is just too much of an expense considering how basic my skill level would be.

OMG! I can compete at AN's this year if I want to! (I don't know if I will, b/c I'm still focusing mainly on dance, but it is very tempting to think of competing in freestyle and [possibly] not getting my a$@ kicked). Of course, I passed Pre-Juv years ago, so I'd have to compete Silver, and I think my axel attempts at this point are probably laughable... but anyway...

So do these new limits apply to dance and pairs as well, or just singles?

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I don't think there's ever been enough adult dance teams at ANs in any single "level" category (Bronze/Silver/Pre-Gold etc) to merit separating by age groups.

Don't know about pairs, but would venture the same guess.

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Oh yeah. I forgot about that.

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I have been following the postings on this subject, and I just registered to join the forum so I could add to it...

I went to the USFSA website and read the changes, and one of the PROPOSALS was that in a given year, skaters have to choose to compete in EITHER the standard track (including collegiate) OR the adult track, not both. Given that choice, I think most 21 year old skaters (who are looked as as a "threat" to adults) would choose the standard track. That means the 21 year olds who started skating as adults would compete in the adult track, which is what this rule is all about.

Believe me, I feel threatened by letting 21 year olds compete; I am 36 and compete masters junior. I have competed in champ masters before, but this year I felt like I didn't have a chance with the young'ns, so I didn't enter. But, that is why I am thankful for the open events with the age groups.

As for local comps, we all know that there are so few adult skaters that age and groups will have to be combined it we are to be allowed to compete.

And a 20-year-old is also likely to be in college, which will wreak havoc on many attempts to train with regularity.

My experience with "old" Juvenile skaters is that they will test as far as their abilities will take them. If a 20-year-old has a double loop, they've probably at least taken Intermediate, if not passed it. If they can't pass the test with the doubles they have, they won't be very competitive anyways.

I don't know any early 20's skater who is "saving" themselves for competition like the kids do. Let's face it, making it to standard Sectionals or Junior Nationals is much more prestigious than competing in the open events at ANs. I seriously doubt that there are, or will be, 20-year-old Juvenile skaters planning their "skating career" around ANs like kids do Regionals.

I must respectfully disagree with both of these points. Once you've been around more Adult competitions, especially AN and the other "biggies", you will no doubt notice that sandbagging can be a big problem at times, even in the Adult ranks (see other extensive posts on this subject). And yes, winning first place at any level means enough to some people to engage in this type of behavior. Secondly, some people may take offense to National level Bronze skating skills being described as "basic" -- again, if you had seen the level of Bronze I skating at AN in the past couple of years, you may have a very different opinion.

That being said, I did attend GC this weekend and did vote against the proposal to decrease the age requirement. While I feel that it is important to give these later-onset skaters (21-24) a place to compete outside of the standard track, there is already an age category recognized by USFSA for this group called "Young Adult" (18-24). If USFSA feels it is important to reach out to this group (which I agree with), then they should devote more resources to promoting this already existing category, and consider adding Young Adult events to AN as a separate category, rather than simply grouping them into the existing Adult structure, which will result in many of the problems already addressed in this thread. (The biggest concern for me as a local competition chair is when there aren't enough entrants support separate age categories at a level, so that a 45-year old mother of 3 with a full-time job and household to run is forced to compete against a 21-year old college student who is in a very different place in life, has MUCH more time to train, etc.) We had this problem at the Halloween Classic when we added a Young Adult skater into a Masters event (b/c she was the only entrant in the YA category) and we received a few very hostile complaints from the older skaters.

I also made the motion at GC to send the new age divisions back to the Adult Skating Committee for further study. My rationale was that it does not seem logical to divide an already shrinking category (as seen by the dramtic drop in Bronze I entries at AN and Sectionals over the past couple of years) into two even smaller groups. Maybe the Adult Committee has market research to suggest that there will be such a surge in entries from the 21-24 age group that it will make up for the current decline, but without such information available to the delegates, the proposal before us did not make sense. Unfortunately, the majority disagreed.

Just my two cents.

philly

See, I guess what I've seen at local competitions is totally different. An older skater competing in Juvenile usually has an axel, and a shaky double - maybe. Trust me, if they got any kind of consistent double before they were 18, they tested up to Intermediate to do Regionals! I bet for the majority of Juvenile event at club competitions, the oldest skaters are 15-16 - which is still way old for Juvenile.

The time between 18 and 21 is a big question mark for most people. The vast majority head off to college, where it's really difficult to maintain a skating training schedule, passing your classes and having a social life even for the most dedicated (I know, I tried - and my rink was across the street from my dorm!). I skated on my breaks from school, and I was the only one at my age and near my level that continued. The other kids who continued through college were Novice level, trying to get their Senior tests. The amount of 19 and 20 year olds with doubles waiting to test so they can beat some adults once a year is probably slim to none!

I completely agree. I'm at Pre-Juvenile right now (actually just tested up) and have been planning on taking my Juvenile tests soon. Now I have to decide whether or not to go back and take all of the Adult tests OR test up to Intermediate or Novice as fast as I can so I can compete Masters. Spending all that money to retest things I've already passed or have not even started working on to be a gold skater is something I'm not sure I can afford (college is expensive!). Especially when I train every day.

I have to agree with everyone who has said the learning curve goes up the younger you start. I started when I was 19, and in two years already have doubles. I skated a little as a kid, but never got many jumps so it didn't really impact my skating now. I know of another girl who started when she was 18, had never been on the ice before, and she's getting ready to test pre-pre and has the most gorgeous camel spin after only a couple of years as well.

But at the same time, there are some adults at my rink who have only been skating for a year or so and have their single flips and are beginning their lutz and axel. Learning curves depend entirely on the person.

I do think that while there will be some people who skate down just to win, that happens a bit anyway. It won't be solely kids who do. And many kids, no matter how good they are, will be in for a surprise going up against many of the adults who have some exceptional positions and moves.

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This isn't entirely accurate. This applies only to QUALIFYING EVENTS.

As far as I know, this isn't true. The rulebook makes no mention of a Young Adult test or competition category. Many local comps have put one in (with varying age definitions, by the way), but USFSA per se doesn't have such a category as far as I know.

Ya know I skate from 14-18 as a teen. I was good at my 2nd figures and usually got to skate in the freeskate portion. The thing is, I had a great axel but nothing else. I failed my Int FS and 3rd test @the end of my Sr year.

My parents recently showed me the tapes of me skating at 16,17, and 18. Seriously, I sucked, so scratchy, horrible footwork, spins that travelled for yards.

As an adult, much better, other than 10" of height and 30 lbs, same frame. I started back up @36 but here is the thing. I skate 2-3 hours a day evertday, plus I dance now. It seems comfort on the ice is key. I see a lot of teenagers at open pj and open juv, not really a threat. If they have the jumps they generally move up. I would have -- could I have passed the test at 18.

Those kids at Jr and Sr. they aren't gonna do it, they still want a shot at regionals, that dq's them.

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Just to clear things up, I was referring to my own skating when I said 'basic'. I'm nearly 26 now -- suppose it takes me two years to pass Bronze moves, if I pick things up quickly, etc, etc. That puts me at 28, meaning I can compete at AN the next year. Depending on how shaky my skills are, I can see myself very easily in a position where I'm not interested in showing off a couple of shaky jumps yet, preferring to wait a year and practice putting together a program, enter a couple local things, etc. I'm sure there are tons of accomplished Bronze I skaters but I don't see myself as one of them within the time frame for still being a Class I.

That's with a relatively fast time-frame, assuming no marriage, children, or anything else people do in their late 20s with consistent access to ice.

It just doesn't surprise me that registration is lower, especially given the expense involved. Add in airfare, hotel, registration, and it's adding up to several months worth of lessons.

It may not be in the rulebook yet or recognized by a separate test category, but it was announced (or at least promoted) by the Adult Skating Committee last year (granted, not in qualifying competitions, but again that could have been changed without affecting the current Adult structure).

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?sid=19282

Believe me I understand all of the concerns being expressed here as I have had to compete often with former kid skaters or skaters who started in their teens but for whatever reason are still eligible for Bronze when they turn 25.

However, I think the new rules actually help someone like me as I overnight became a two, when I thought I still had several years ahead of me in I. So now I am a young II instead of a middle of the age bracket I. While in past years many of the really good Bronze I skaters would have probably been in what is now II anyway, some would have been in I. And we all know that many of the complaints about sandbagging have been directed at Bronze I. So now many of those skaters will now be a two and no longer having to compete against really, really good skaters who just turned 25 but have been skating for years and should probably be Silver or Gold. Forgive me if this is hard to read, I have a headeache! But anyway, I guess what I am trying to say is that for me and other former I's who are now II's because of the new rules this can only be a good thing. I am pretty sure that there will be enough entrants at Adult Nationals that age groups would not be combined. And I would also think this would also be the case at larger competitions like Peach Classic.

It also makes moving up to Silver seem less scary as the youngest competitor would now be 29. This is obviously much better for a 34 or 35 year old who wants to move up to Silver.

I know you were being sarcastic (or I hope you were anyway), but my mom has not given me a dime for skating. If it's not food, basically she just doesn't give me any money. Occasionally, she'll pay for my gas, if she's in the car when I go to fill up. Basically, the way it falls is that I work a just over minimum pay job, I think I make around $60 a week, not a whole lot. $50 per week goes to skating. So I would think working adults out of school would have an edge in terms of ice time, simply because they can afford it. Whereas I can only afford one lesson a week, there are plenty of adult skaters who take more. Also, it's hard to stick to a skating schedule when you have papers to write, finals to study for, nights when you're up until 3 am (like I'll probably be doing tonight) and you just can't get up at 6 am to go to the rink. I'm not saying adults are any less busy by any means, just maybe there schedules might be a bit more predictable, and financially, its easier for them to skate.

I think the best path to take would be to just wait and see what happens. No one can predict the future. Maybe it'll be a good thing, maybe it'll be a bad thing. Nobody knows for sure. Just gotta wait until the first comp where a 21 year old enters and see what happens.

But, from what I've seen, there aren't too many young 20's skating. At all of the rinks I've skated at, I've been the only one my age who isn't testing or good enough to compete at the standard track. So maybe there's not as many young 20's out there who want to compete at the adult track, and then all htis worry would have been for nothing.

This is where there is some confusion. The term "qualifying events" in this sense means the competition itself. AN and AS are "qualifying events," since portions of the competition have a qualifying component. It does not mean the events contained within the competition, such as "Championship Masters Ladies" or "Adult Gold Men."

I think you are correct because I went back to USFSA website and read the proposal, and it says "may not enter adult level at qualifying competition (AS/AN) and a standard level at a qualifying competition...in the same season....For example, a skater may not enter Mens novice FS in standard track and masters freeskating in adult track...

Regarding the concern of some adults that these young skaters will sandbag, personally, as a masters level skater, I'd rather have the "standard track" or "collegiate track" national title than the adult national title (but I'm way too old for that now!!!), so I truly think these skaters will choose the standard track competitions. Maybe when they feel they are too old to compete in standard track, they will move over to the adult track, but then the age thing won't matter.

Does anyone know if this proposal passed...the one regarding entering standard or adult comps in the same season?

I agree with this. I've had both a 23 year old male and a 27 year old male (I was scouting potential pairs partners) recently tell me that Adult Nationals is, and I quote, "beneath" them. Grrrr....

So I'm surprised any of these "kids," as some of you have mentioned, are chomping at the bit to join ANs and clean up the medals.

Yes, it did.

Easy, just test up to your skating skills and then no adults will complain about your competing with them because you'll be at the same skill level as the other adults at your level. Right now competing against older adults at the silver level isn't fair to you either because you're not giving yourself true competition. You need to challenge yourself. Otherwise, the medals are cheap and don't mean so much to you.

Brigitte

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I am a nomadic adult skater who is a member of Windsor FSC (Skate Windsor) WOS SC again since Sept. 1st, 2008.

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Correct. So I could compete in Peach Classic and Southeastern Regionals if I wanted to, based on this rule.

Yes. Why you or anyone would want to is another matter entirely.