Since the other thread on GC is more focused on the 12/4 plan, I thought I would start a different thread.

Does anyone know what decisions were made regarding the adult issues?

AFAIK, there is a proposal that will make the Adult Skating Committee a permanent committee of USFS!!! The passing of this should be a no- brainer!!

Any news on adding the rule to allow women to wear trousers at adult competitions?

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

They haven't posted anything about the trousers or the new Adult MITF proposal, BUT there was a decision about the lowering of the standards for the Adult and Masters Dance Test track:

5. TR 49.00 Schedule of Compulsory Dance Tests, page 219-221 (submitted with the agreement of the Tests and Adult Skating Committees)

<MOVE> to amend TR 49.00 to adjust the Passing Averages for adult and masters dance tests

The new passing averages will be as follows:

Level Adult Dance Test Masters Dance Test

Current Amended Current Amended
Preliminary n/a n/a Pass/Retry Pass/Retry
Pre-bronze n/a n/a 2.7 2.7
Bronze n/a n/a 3.0 3.0
Pre-silver 3.7 3.6 3.4 3.3
Silver 4.0 3.9 3.7 3.6
Pre-gold 4.2 4.0 3.9 3.7
Gold 4.5 4.2 4.2 3.9
International 4.8 4.5 4.5 4.2


Rationale: After several months of dedicated work between the Dance Committee and the Adult Skating Committee, this modification in test passing averages was agreed to. The differences between the standard and adult passing averages both give credit for the skills required for execution of the solo and acknowledge differences in test execution for those dance tests not requiring a solo (pre-silver and international). Masters dance test passing averages were adjusted to remain 0.3 below the corresponding adult dance test.

Financial Impact: None

This table is hard to read -- you will have to go to the www.usfsa.org news forum -- but basically what they have done is lower the passing standard for the Adult test and Masters dance tests--

This is really really frustrating for a person like myself who started testing Adult 14 years ago (gosh, it's been that long!) -- the thinking being that the test is EXACTLY the same as the Standard test except you don't have to do the solo. Same standards as the regular test.

Now the standard will be lower. Sure, maybe I'll go back and test some dances because gee, it'll be easier, but on some level it just makes me want to say, "Well, forget it -- I'll just go to social dance sessions and have fun instead! (like in about an hour!)

Arrrgghhh!

There was a discussion at length on the Yahoo Groups ice dancers group concerning lowering the Adult dance passing marks...

Lots of pros and cons.

Yeah, I know -- I'm on that list too.

I don't see any of the "pro" reasons myself -- it just feels really degrading. I mentioned the changes to some adults that were at our session tonight, and they were pretty disgusted.

I'm wondering if this rule change will discourage Adult dancers from testing anymore -- although I haven't tested in a LONG time (due to lack of good male training partners and/or coaches in my area) I would love to someday finish my dances.

Now I'm thinking maybe not. Like: why bother?

My personal opinion is that it will really take a couple of years for a "quality difference" to sink in. I think at least at first we will continue to see judges expect the same basic quality as in a solo-less standard track dance, but the number assigned will just be lower.

I wasn't thrilled with the idea either. But I know some adults (middle age, not 25-30 years old) who go out on tests and do their very best, but in terms of extension and knee bend, just can't physically match the skating of a teenage, or even a 25-30 year old. If this keeps them skating/testing, I guess then it will have worked.

I think what was needed more, was a codification of expectations for an "adult-track"' test that defines different expectations other than "no solo". E.g. weaker extensions, shallower knee bend, smaller pattern.

I also am disappointed in a way, that they passed the lower standards for adult and masters. I have been working for years on testing these dances, and am about to test my 2nd pre-gold. I think they should have made some provision for letting those adults who have passed with a standard mark up till now to cross over to the standard track somehow without having to retest all the dances again. I would be willing to start soloing if I could continue from where I am now, instead of spending a lot of money and time to retest and retrain all the dances I have passed already. It doesn't seem fair that those who pass with a lower mark be awarded the same level as those of us who have tested, and failed, and tested again until we earned the standard mark.

As a judge, I can tell you that, at least to me, this lower passing average would make no difference in how the test is judged. I don't judge dance, but I do judge MIF, and when I do I look at whether or not a test is of the quality of the LEVEL, not of the mark. I don't look at a Novice move and say that is a 3.5 move. I look at it and say that is right on for where a Novice move should be, and then award it whatever the passing mark happens to be; in that case, 3.5. If the move exceeds what is expected of a Novice, I may give it a 3.6 or 3.7. But it's all relative to what the assigned passing mark is. If they were to lower the Novice passing average to, say, 3.4, I would still do the same thing: If the move is right on where Novice should be, it would get a 3.4. If it's better, it would get a 3.5 or 3.6. It's like when the median mark is established after the first skater competes. You take the median and "compare" from there. A passing average on a test is like that: It's the median mark from which you compare. When all is said and done, it's just a number.

The one thing I did not like about this new rule is that someone got up and moved that it be declared urgent, and that passed. Meaning, as soon as new test sheets can be made up, it goes into effect, instead of waiting until Sept. 1. That means the people who were steadfastly opposed to this new rule won't have the four or so months to test at the higher mark before the rule goes into effect. It is essentially immediate, and that to me was unnecessary, especially given how close the vote was on this at GC. It was the only issue to require a count from the floor.

Daisies --So then do you have a different level quality in mind for adults on the moves in the field tests? When they say the passing average is lower for adults, they're saying to allow for a slightly lower quality, right? I'm just wondering.

Pat

The adult pair proposal passed. Details will be posted on the USFSA site under adults.

The members of my club who went don't know if these passed

-Age rule changes for Adult Synchro skaters
-Adult fill-up rule
-Adult ladies to wear pants for competing

Anyone know if these passed, especially the age change for synchro? Big THANKS to US Figure Skating for being so timely in updating the site!

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Any news on the Adult committee being at regular committee level?

Yes, I did hear through the grapevine that Adult is now a regular committee

Sk8ndancr: I'm in a similar boat; I'm scheduled to test my first pre-gold in a month. I just heard about the standard change this morning, & that made up my mind. After this test, I'm going back to silver & starting over on the solo track. It matters to me because I also coach--before it seemed not that big a deal, since the standard was the same, but now it will hurt my credibility too much to have " only" gone through the adult track--even though I'm planning to do at least a couple of internationals. This sucks!

Backspin -- are you going to start over in SOLO dance or STandard track? -- is Silver where you first started doing the Adult tests?

I started my Adult tests in Pre-Silver -- if I wanted to do standard track, my understanding is that I would have to start over at Pre-Silver!!

Forget it. I still think the passing of this basically stinks. I understand what daisies is saying, but I still think the quality of passing will be lower, eventually -- and that makes me wonder what about those of us that are in pre-gold land!!???

At least I wasn't going to test in a month... -- then I can't imagine how I would feel!!

Icedance2--

Sorry, yes you're right; I'm going back & starting on the Standard track--which means I have to do my silvers over again. Last year they changed that rule--solos now start at silver instead of pre-silver. I also think that was a horrible decision, but at least it will now save me from having to drop down 2 levels!

Am supposed to test Paso on Saturday. Wonder how it will be judged; the old way or the new way? I was hoping to get thru the level before the change went into effect; so much for that!! I wonder what these changes will do to free dance testing....I passed Junior free (standard) last month; will I still be able to do the next standard free dance after the corresponding adult gold compulsories, or will those rules change too? (Not that I would have to worry about testing any of that very soon!!!!!) So much work and money and time to have the rules changed on you all of a sudden. It's very discouraging. I am an older skater and don't know if my body has the time left in it to go back and do it all over again before it self-destructs! I wanted to do as much as I could before I got too old to do it anymore!

Well, this is entirely different. When an adult takes an adult MIF test, it's not the "novice" or "intermediate" or whatever test. It's the "adult bronze" or "adult gold," etc., test. So although I would observe an adult skater perform what is an intermediate move on the adult gold test, I am assessing whether or not that skater is skating per the level of an adult gold skater, not an intermediate skater. (It would get really confusing if you did it the other way around, since the adult MIF tests don't parallel the standard track, and each test borrows from different standard-track levels.)

Not necessarily. Remember, the adult dance tests have no solo aspect. That reason alone merits a lower passing average. And I wouldn't look at it in terms of "quality." There are simply going to be some things an older skater will look "different" doing than a younger one, and if a judge is a stickler for one of those things, the new mark allows for some flexibility.

It will be judged the "old" way. Although the new passing averages were declared urgent, they won't be in effect by Saturday. The test committee chair needs time to make up new forms, etc. I am not sure when this will be accomplished, but I can guarantee it won't be by this weekend!

I guess I'm still confused about this -- although the solos were no longer required on the Standard Track pre-silver test as of last June, was there still an Adult track for this level at all? I had assumed not, but the test forms still ask the judge to circle whether the test is Standard Adult Masters or Solo.

http://www.usfsa.org/content/JP_DN-Fourteenstep.pdf

One of the judges in our area told me that the test was still considered an "Adult" test -- makes no sense to me, since the passing scores were the same for the Adult and Standard tester and no one had to do a solo anymore.

Well, I guess I'm beating a dead horse --- I really don't understand at all why this happened and what it does to those of us who are far enough along in the testing structure to not want to turn back, but don't want to be judged at a lower level.

Okay, I'll stop now.

I have always seen this much as Dasies. It's not a question of lower quality, but realizing there are real differences in kids and adults. Although many of you feel it's something of a lesser accomplishment to test and be judged at a "lower" adult level, no one's asking you to skate at a "lower" level or with less quality.

I just sent an email to the USFSA to verify where one has to go back to in order to pick up testing on the Standard track. It makes the most sense that it would be Silver, since I've already passed the pre-silver with the standard scores, but I thought I'd better make sure.

Now in June, instead of my Kilian, I'll hopefully be testing 2 silvers. I hope I can get them polished up in time, but I don't want to waste much time getting them out of the way! Aaagggghhh.

--------------

Edited to add that in order to retest my silvers, assuming (praying!) that I pass them all on the first try, it's going to cost me $180.00, not to mention a couple months of lessons and training time..........

So regarding dance, here's a question:

If I, as an adult, have always taken the Standard track tests with solos, do I keep continuing on with the standard track? in other words, does this new ruling affect my situation in any way? I've passed all my Pre-Silvers.

I agree with you Flo. However, part of testing is finding out if your skating meets a certain standard or not. Now, even if it does, you really won't know for sure. And, even in a perfect world, if you needed a 3.3 and got a 3.2 which is now passing, you won't ever pass the non-solo test to the level that you wished.

Of course, I also agree with Jen's comment that it is crucial that judges learn what is basically a second passing standard! If the moves have taught us anything it is that judges can't really tell the difference between a 3.3 and a 3.0 - they can just tell if a move is passing or not (or if we should lose weight ;-). One thing that I think helps with this is that they have two choices on the same form which highlights that there is a different standard. I wish on moves they had a way or reason to point out that, for example, my slide chasse excersize in my silver moves test was up to Intermediate standard. Forgetting marks for a second, there would then be 3 choices - failed silver, passed silver, and would have passed Intermediate. I think this would be great feedback to me as an adult move tester as well as an aid to the judge that says that hey - there is a second standard!

Just my thoughts,
Danielle

ps) I wish there was a way when I take my gold moves that, if I am up to Standard track Intermediate that I could skate the missing two moves and pass Intermediate in the same test!

No, it would have no effect. You would continue to do standard track if you choose to do so. You could also switch to the adult track at your current level, if you prefer. However -- as has always been the case, even before this new rule -- if you do switch to the adult track and pass, say, the adult silver dance test, you could not then switch back to standard and take the standard pre-gold. You would have to go back and pass the standard silver test in order to progress on the standard track. But if you've been doing standard track all along, there is no impact.