Sorry, but there are two pages of stuff on dance, plus the page listing all the 06-07 compulsory dances in each event at each level. The best way I can summarize is to say that there's a section for Championship Adult Dance which has stuff about the selection of compulsory dances, and stuff on the original dance, including required and optional elements. Then there is a section on Adult Gold Dance with stuff on the selection of compulsory dances and the original dance. Then each level from Pre-Gold down to Pre-Bronze and Adult Centennial is listed with the info on selection of compulsory dances, which only says how the initial and final round dances will rotate for seasons 06-07 and 07-08.

Is there something specific you are looking for? Let me know and I'll see if I can find it. Hope this helps a little bit.

OK - I see this now. It's deep in the 5 bazillon other pages of dance stuff that was applicable to standard and adult. UGH!

TR 43.05 (A)(1) Yes, on the sheet I have, it says this passed to now require only 2 patters for Dutch Waltz, Canasta Tango, Rhythm Blues, Cha Cha, Fiesta Tango, Willow Waltz, Hickory Hoedown and Ten Fox.

Glad I saw this as I hope to test my Fiesta this summer.

Just one more caveat in all of this: As discussion was held, some on the fly changes were made to the documents showing up on the big screen. So anything done like that after the printing of the pages they had on Saturday, would not be on my papers. Hopefully early this week they will post all the final stuff.

They aligned the passing marks of the dances w/ the levels and the made the adult passing standard lower all the way down to Pre bronze.

PB s=2.5 a=2.4 m=2.3
Br s=2.7 a=2.6 m=2.4
PS s=3.0 a=2.8 m=2.6
s s=3.5 a=3.2 m=2.8
pg s=4.0 a=3.7 m=3.2
g s=4.5 a=4.2 m=3.7


2 patterns for the DW, CT, RB, CC, FT, WW, HH, TF

IJS for Gold and Masters.

All masters 3.40 time limit, 7 jumps, 4 spins, max one step sequence.
Of course time is max so I will stick w/ about 3.20 for this year.

Gold jump limit went through 2s, 2t, 2lp
silver 5 jumps, 3 spins
bronze 4 jumps 2 spins

The point was made that test standards and competition standards are different: example axel @ silver ladies not on test. Doubles in gold, not on test. If you want you can do more spins w/ no penalty BUT they will not count, they will count the first two spins in bronze and that's it.

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Well, that's true, but these examples are about what makes you competitive at those levels. As is often said, meeting the test requirements allows you to skate at a certain level, but it doesn't necessarily make you competitive. In this case, though, it's the reverse - the test requirement for Bronze is greater than what is allowed in competition. That just seems ridiculous, at least IMO.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

OK, here's another question (which may be answered whenever the USFSA officially announces all of the new rules on their website): When does this 2-spin max rule take effect? July 1, Sept 1, or some other date? I guess if a summer comp wants to go by next season's rules, it would be in effect there - and Wilmington is usually one of those comps. All the more reason to compete Pre-Bronze at Wilmington - how else am I supposed to practice doing my Bronze test program in front of judges in a pressure situation? I suppose if I decided to compete Bronze, I could take out my forward scratch spin at the end, which would leave just the sit and backspin, but then what would I do at the end of my program after my last jump, stand around and smile until the music stops?

Actually, I was going to compete Pre-Bronze anyway, b/c this comp seems to be attracting more Pre-Bronze than Bronze skaters, but this situation is what a lot of Pre-Bronzes are going to encounter at summer and fall comps around the country. And if you want to compete with your test program (for the experience) at a comp that doesn't offer Pre-Bronze FS, you're out of luck.

Sorry, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I'm really annoyed by this. It feels like the new program rules were hastily put together without considering all of the details and ramifications.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Not that this is much of a solution, but if you really wanted to practice your test program at a competition, you may want to just go for the final forward spin at the end and take the hit from the judges. I guess if you are forced to make a decision, you have to decide which is more important, your ranking at that competition or your development of test program experience. But agreed, this rule change was not well thought out and will almost certainly require subsequent revisions next year.

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Whatever!

And, like I posted yesterday, where is the incentive to move up now???

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

Unless rule changes are marked Urgent, they are effective on 1 September, which is the "as/of" date for the new rulebook.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

another thing to consider is whether or not that additional content will count as a deduction or as extra content. If you do a sit, then a camel spin, then a layback, will the sit and camel count as your two spins and the layback as connecting moves or will you be deducted for extra content? If you feel strongly about having 3 spins and aren't deducted, then do the 3rd spin, knowing it won't count as a spin when the judges give you your marks.

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Champagne in 2005, 2008, 2009 - who's next out of the pre-bronze club...?

Wang chung!

My interpretation of how I read the rules on the third spin is that it would count as a transitional step to whatever element you have, meaning that it would probably not hurt, but it probably is extra time that you can't use towards other requirements in the well-balanced program for Bronze. Of course, to be competitive, you would have to up your ante on the spin requirements and really push for 3 rev for each spin position you're in...

Right! And at the rate I'm going, I'm probably not gonna compete for a year (at least) to do some major technical catch-up to be at least middle of the road in the Bronze competitive level. (I am middle of the road to pretty competitive now on the Pre-Bronze FS competitive level now...meaning "Jazzpants is tough to beat but can be beaten...and certainly isn't asked by the judges to consider moving up to Bronze FS. ")

Looks like I'm gonna be hanging on to that "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club card for a while. (It's okay though. I'm looking at my finances now after my house paint job and it's not looking too hopeful for AN 07 anyway. Those of you who own houses certainly know how much of a money pit home ownership can be. )

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

The way the rules are now, there is a "0.2 Deduction for each extra or lacking element in the mark for Technical Elements."

I can't imagine a spin being marked as a transition element, unless it travels a lot!!!

For O'dorf, a clarification point reads:
"Any element done in excess of the maximum will not be counted.
The first time a required element is done it will be counted. For example, if there is 1 required step sequence, but the program contains two step sequences, only the first will be counted as the requirement. The second will be considered a transition move or as part of choreography."

Perhaps a similar rule will be adopted for USFS.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

shoot me if you will, but it looks like the new bronze rules are saying

"We want to see skaters develop two quality spins with more than 3 revolutions instead of a bunch of rushed spins with 1-2 revolutions in each position"

I know it's a LOT harder to get a camel spin with a consistent 3 revolutions minimum, not to mention a combination spin with 3 revolutions in each position. When people are in the beginning stages of learning their spins, getting 3 revolutions is really hard, and takes quite a bit of work, unless you're naturally talented.

In general, it's easier for people to get those single jumps than spins, and by making 3 revolutions a requirement, EVERYONE's going to have to have better spins, even if their jumps are better.

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Keep Evolving. "From this moment forward, every voice that told you - You Can't - , has been silenced." - Freedom Writers

Forgive me for this, but I *thought* that the 3 revolutions requirement was already in place back in 2002 in the initial draft of the Well Balanced Program Requirement??? (My understanding of the wording is "Spins must have a minimum of three (3) revolutions.")

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Yep, that is the current rule. Actually, I think CoP lessens the current rule, b/c doesn't it say that for a spin position to receive credit, it must be held for 2 revs?

Also, do the new rules specify that the spins must be of a different nature? If not that could be a problem/issue at comps.

Another thing to think about - with the current well-balanced program requirements, the rules specify a minimum number of spins, whereas with the new requirements, there is a max, but no min. What's to keep someone from only doing 1 spin, and making it some super-complex combo spin? How would the judges compare that to skaters doing 2 spins that are not quite as complex as the single spin, but overall have as many or more positions or revs as the single spin? I'm of the belief that skaters doing more elements in their programs (b/c the more jump and spin elements you include, the more challenging your choreo is and the less time you have for crossovers and stroking between elements to pick up speed) should get more credit, but as the new rules are written, that may not happen.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Hi everyone, I was there too and was one of the people who spoke against Masters being 4:10. I agree with it in principle, mainly because the Senior FS test is 4 minutes +/- 10 seconds, so an adult who wants to take that test would need a separate program. The beauty of the adult "maximum" times is that you can do anything under that time and not be penalized, so anyone working on, say, the Junior free skating test could do 3:30 and a skater at Novice could do 3 minutes, without penalty.

The problem with that under IJS is huge. The jump bonus comes in at the halfway point -- not the halfway point of each person's program, but the halfway point of the maximum time. If it were 4:10, the halfway point would be 2:05, and the Novice skater with a 3-minute program would be at a disadvantage. You could argue that each skater has the choice of making his/her program longer to be competitive, but that just isn't fair to the lower-level skaters.

The maker of the motion to up the time to 4:10 lost my support entirely when she brought up that a lot of Masters skaters also want to do standard track competitions, including collegiates, where the senior time is 4:10. I believe the adult skating committee's first priority should be accommodating skaters in ADULT competitions, not making it easier for them to cross from back and forth. JMHO!

It was great seeing you there! The main reason all the Masters levels' time limits were made the same was due to everything I said above about the jump bonus and that it would be unfair to force some skaters to have to do two separate programs for open and Championship. If we kept Novice at 3:10 but then had Championship at 3:40 (or even 4:10), that Novice skater might need a separate 3:40 program for Championship in order to gain the same benefits of the jump bonus as someone in Masters Junior. We considered making the time maximum 3:10 for everybody, in order to match the ISU, but the committee voted otherwise.

As for Bronze and the spins, it seems to me that the 3rd spin will be penalized under 6.0 but just won't count under IJS. Honestly, I think the better fix -- rather than upping the spins to 3 -- is to take a look at the Bronze test and perhaps lower the test regulation to 2.

If anyone thinks all of this wasn't well thought out, you are entitled to your opinion, but I must respond that the committee worked extremely hard. Everything is a work in progress, and nothing is going to be perfect from the get-go. The standard track has the same growing pains with IJS and WBPs that we do.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this. After attending GC this year for the first time, one thing I really took away from it is how much time and effort each committee puts in. The Adult Committee chair, Tony Conte, emphasized this when the Bronze 2-spin limit was contested. The new requirements are in line with the IJS and that is the direction that everything in USFSA is headed.

It was pointed out at the meeting that it is the norm, rather than the exception, that the test requirements for a certain level are quite different from competition programs. Most skaters don't use their test program for competing, although it does seem like some of the adult skaters on this board do. I actually think it's fine to keep the Bronze test program as is, as having the 3 spins demonstrates your ability to do a variety of spin types. You have to do a forward upright, backspin, and sitspin. I think you should still be required to show that you can do ALL of these spins before you can pass the test. Yes, the forward 1 foot spin is also on pre-Bronze, but only 3 revs where on Bronze it's 4. I would be against changing the test requirements, but I definitely think it was best to limit the competition requirements to 2, which will force skaters to improve the quality of their spins.

This doesn't sound too bad either. Maybe make the two test spins be the sit spin (to test a new spin position not covered on the PB test) and the back spin (always important). The forward upright spin is somewhat covered by the fact that many skaters finish the sit spin by standing up into an upright spin anyway. I'm not crazy about possibly eliminating the forward spin from the bronze test, but if you want to keep test & competition requirements consistent, this seems to be the way to go.

As a bonus, the Bronze test becomes slightly easier to pass, helping out the pre-bronzers, so everyone's happy!

In any case, thanks to you and the rest of the Adult committee for your hard work on this proposal. Yes, we are all having to respond/react to the NJS, and even the standard track is experiencing growing pains and adjustments to the code post-Torino. We're getting there folks...

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Whatever!

Ah I am of the opposite belief - I think the more quality elements you do, the stronger the overall skating becomes. Yes it's not as much to do in a program so you might not think of it as being as challenging but i think skaters advance to a higher level faster by doing only a few quality elements.

It's much harder technically to do a complex spin with many revolutions than multiple single spins with fewer revolutions. For a complex spin you have to have a fast enough and centered enough spin to begin with in order to make a good transition to another position that can hold at least another 3 revolutions. And if you can increase the speed of the spin after a transition, it means you really have a higher degree of spinning skill under your belt than someone who does multiple simple spins with no transitions.

I would give a skater who does 1 well centered, fast complex spin much more credit than someone who does 4 simple spins with same quality.

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Keep Evolving. "From this moment forward, every voice that told you - You Can't - , has been silenced." - Freedom Writers

Another thought... if the rules stay as they are through the next few seasons, you may want to consider doing this: choreograph your test program so that two of your spins are back-to-back (e.g. sit spin, exit, power LFO 3 turn [for a ccw spinner], R over L back xovers to upright spin), then for a competition program use that same spot in the program to do a more complex combination spin. In other words, don't choreograph your test program so that the 3 spins are all at different points in the program, or it'll be too hard to change to a 2 spin program for competition. Just a thought.

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Whatever!

It was great seeing you in Orlando as well. You definitely made a valid point regarding the time limits with regards to the jump bonus under IJS which made me change my thinking (and my vote) about this whole thing.

I think we all have to realize that IJS is definitely a work in progress both from a skating and judging aspect. There will be growing pains like anything that is new...heck we went through this all before when they phased out figures and brought in moves in the field over 10 years ago. I think it will just take some time to get used to and embrace the change for what it is.

DAISIES since you are on the committee, what was the rationale to include a required combination jump as part of the maximum jump elements? Combination jumps are not required in the standard levels under IJS. I know when I spoke to Tony about this, he said that last year's well-balanced program requirements were used as a basis.

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Christy

I don't know for sure, but I would guess that is correct -- that it was basically trying to use the current WBPs and not veer too far from them.

The committee was presented with the WBP proposal as prepared by Tony and George Rossano, who's heavy into the IJS system and helping to create point values. But the combo issue was never brought up by the committee for discussion, so it seems no one had a problem with it.

IMO, the standard track should require a combo, but that's just me!

But therein lies the problem - Bronze (and Silver) is not being judged under IJS, it is (presumably) judged under the 6.0 system, at least for the next few years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason for changing the WBP requirements for Bronze and Silver was to bring them in line with the new WBP for Gold and Masters, which had to be changed to allow for judging under IJS. But if we don't follow the IJS standards, we will be penalized b/c we're judged under 6.0. If a Bronze skater does a program with 3 spins, the 3rd spin won't just not count, there will be a penalty. (and I'm not really that obsessed with spins and test programs, but I do see some significant problems with the new rules)

I'm not saying that the committee didn't work hard, but I do think it's valid to point out that certain issues were missed, namely the WBP for Pre-Bronze and the Bronze test requirements. Setting up a WBP system where skaters at one level can do more spins (and jumps, too, if you look at the way the PB WBP are worded) than skaters at a higher level is what changing the WBP for Bronze and Silver was supposed to avoid. It sounds like the committee discussed the test spins issue, but why wasn't it addressed one way or the other in the new rules?

Well, I agree with you. The point that I was trying to make is what will be the new definition of quality now. I agree that a good combo spin should receive more credit than a good simple spin, but in many Bronze comps that I've seen, there seems to be a tradeoff between good simple spins and not-so-good combo spins. So under the system we'll be judged under (6.0 with IJS program requirements ), what will receive more credit? I have always been told that it's important to do what you do well. It's better to do an easier spin of good quality (more revs, well-centered, good speed) than to do a harder spin of lower quality (fewer revs, traveling, not great positions - like a camel where your leg is not at hip level, etc.). My worry is that with the new WBP, more Bronze skaters will be doing combo spins (with or without changing feet) that are not of good quality but will get more credit than a simpler spin that's done very well. Since IJS only requires 2 revs per position to get credit (then again, we're not technically being judged under IJS so I guess we need 3 revs?) there's the potential to see lots of not-so-great combos b/c they will be rewarded more, but then that lessens the quality of the overall skating.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

For people who dislike spinning, I guess the new limit of two spins rather than three (in PB) would be an incentive to move to bronze!

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Where are those knives when I need them?
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I need a detachable left foot!

Is there a plan to bring the IJS to bronze and silver next year, or the year after, or any time in the foreseeable future? If not, I question why the rush to change the WBP requirements for those levels.

This is exactly what we've seen at the junior/senior levels for the past couple of years; everyone tries to get the highest levels they possibly can, even if the spins are slower and sloppier. When's the last time you saw a beautiful camel position held for 8-10 revolutions? Or a layback sustained in a single position for longer than 3 revs? Or for that matter, a spiral sequence without a catch-foot position or a fan spiral or whatever? Judges are reluctant to give anything higher than +1 unless an element is PHENOMENAL, so a lower-level element, even done well, will accrue fewer points than a higher-level element of mediocre quality.

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Where are those knives when I need them?
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I need a detachable left foot!

Loop Loop, Its even worse than that! I just saw Cherry Blosson Competition...Novice Boys doing change of edge sit spins when their basic sit spin position was suspect! I hate what it has done for the sport! I enjoyed watching most of the Championship Master ladies because there was some beautiful classic positions being done!

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!