No one in the thread made any broad, sweeping generalizations. No one made any comments that could force someone into an E.D. or induce any level of self-hatred. I do have empathy for what you've been through, and while I see your point I think delving into that really brings the thread to a precarious level.

In short, I think some people are overreacting to comments in the thread. Others are selectively overlooking sections of posts to get their "points across." Constantly being told "... height alone ..." can get frustrating when you've never inferred anything like that, and clearly wrote [and meant] the contrary.

Onto more substanative things. A girl 5'2" doing split spirals is impressive. A girl 5'7" doing split spirals is even more impressive because their body length causes them to require more strength since they must lift more weight to get their leg up there. Taller != Stronger. It's also (aforementioned) harder to balance the element. Yes, the length of their body does allow them to create a more jaw-dropping shape doing the same element.

Going back to my previous example. Lucinda Ruh was an expert spinner, and one of the more flexible skaters in the world when she competed, but she could not do a split spiral despite having all the requisite flexibility. I have a hard time thinking she was "weak" by conventional standards. However, lifting your leg that high when you're 5'9" (that's how tall she was/is) is extremely difficult, very tiring, and quite precarious.

We've seen Sasha Cohen have to bail on a spiral when she had to check it. A skater as tall as Lucinda probably would have collapsed instead, because the balance center is much higher and it's much more difficult to check/save those elements when the shift is that high and so wide.

Rotating lower level jumps isn't the same as doing triples, triple doubles, and triple triples. For those jumps you have to pull in very fast, or you run the risk of underrotating. Of course, if you're a very high jumper (and many tall skaters are, especially for toe jumps), then you may have some breathing room for that. Elite skaters have trained for years and developed the necessary strength and developed the muscles to deal with their bodies during training. They do what they can with what they they have (which can be - and often is - a LOT, if they train properly). The only thing we (or rather, posters who have posted similar posts to mine) is that:

1. There can be some limitations that are very difficult, sometimes impossible, to overcome
2. You may have to work harder, sometimes much harder, than another skater who has a shorter body to do the same elements; and
3. The process of acquiring that height can be a dangerous span of time in a skater's career, and must be handled appropriately

I did a bit of rough research, and it seems like the average height of US Ladies Figure Skating Champions is ~5'3".

What we say in this thread is for the purpose of discussion, not to disuade or discourage "taller" skaters from progressing in the sport and working towards their dreams. There is nothing wrong with being told that your physical characteristics may require you to work a bit harder than others. This is the case for many sports.

"The laws of physics" may seem crude, but there's no other way to put it.

Sorry for the hardship you endured. I am not intending to inflict any more upon you. My sincere apologies, and I hope everything goes well for you now and in the future.

Ugh I had typed up a long response but lost it, but I was not meaning to criticize the conversation taking place at all. I think it's a great discussion. It was more of a general rant. I'm probably a little overly sensitive right now, but it just frustrates me that it's become more or less taboo for coaches to comment on a skater's weight and the width of their body, but it's acceptable for them to comment on their height. Skaters shouldn't have to be afraid of what their genetics determine. I just hate knowing that a sport can dictate how a skater feels about their appearance. I don't know that there's anything that can be done, except maybe educate skaters on how different things that they can't control like money, height, body type, natural talent etc can affect their skating at different times in their life while removing the judgment.

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Most of the ones around here are tall (5'10-6'2) and on the thin side as well. Most of them are in their late 30s + and have not competed and therefore have not had to do a lift in quite some time (so some of the muscle and whatnot they may have had may have left ofver time). But the youngest is 25, competed up until a few years ago, has a few students who he is testing free dance with and so he's still doing lifts, and he's still pretty thin. Granted doing dance lifts is more about momentum and physical strength on the part of both partners (female skaters lift their partners--think the Kerrs) and not so much upper body strength of the male like you need in pairs to hoist a skater up over your head and hold her with one arm.

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Saga (current coach) doesn't care as much about height as Lynn Benson did. Back when she was the coach, she wanted 5'6 and a certain look (skaters who were close to 5'6 weren't cut automatically, they just had to put lifts in the heels of their skates). Saga has taken skaters who never would have stood a shot at making the team under Lynn based on their height, appearance, or other factors aside from skating ability. One of the top skaters on that team over the past few years (who a lot of people can't take their eyes off the entire program) is fairly short.

I was the first of my friends to wear a normal bra and I was a C-cup by the time I was about 15, even though I was pretty thin. I got criticized like mad by my singles coach before I quit freestle, and especially by my synchro teammates and coaches for that (same coach that said I was too short also said my chest was too big--nothing about my skating. Just too short/chest too big...this same coach also told another skater who was taller to have a reduction). Nothing makes an already self-conscious teenager more self-conscious than that. I had major self esteem issues and eating disorders in my late teens/early 20s because of that, even though the rest of society outside the skating world would have considered an athletic-looking girl who was 5'4, a size 6 and a 34C/D to be totally smoki'n hot. I certainly had the hockey boys asking me out left and right and had no shortage of dates in high school/college. (Ha ha I'd kill to be a size 6 again...)

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There are several factors that come into play when looking at a skaters ability to do jumps from a physics standpoint.

1. Height - Taller skaters have a longer axis which affects jumps in the same manner as the height of a top affects it's ability to spin smoothly. A tall top
will tend to wobble more than a short top.

A secondary factor is that taller skaters also tend to have longer arms and require more strength to pull them in than a shorter skater. In addition to this most tall skaters tend to also have gone through more significant growth spurts and must relearn control of their jumps more often than shorter skaters.

Basically tall skaters must be more precise in their technique than a shorter skater as they will have to correct a larger wobble if they are off vertical.

2. Center of gravity - Each skaters center of gravity is different, for males who's center tends to be higher as they mature and develop shoulders a short skater will have a lower overall center of gravity than a taller skater this contributes to the top effect in point 1. A top shaped like a pear will spin more stabily if the wide part is at the bottom rather than the top.

For girls the center of gravity changes as they mature and it's their filling out that tends to affect their jumps more than their height.

3. Mass - skaters who have larger hips, shoulders, bust/chest tend to have more mass that they have to get rotating. This also affects the ability to jump as more energy is required to start rotating in the first place and also to propel the extra mass into the air.

There is nothing that says a skater who isn't the "ideal" build cannot overcome these additional factors it may just take more time and drive than a more "ideally" build skater.

My 9 yo dd is about 4'11" already, but she is still doing great. She is up to double lutz and just started to learn double axel. Her response to the too tall comment is always "Tell that to Evan Lysacek"

I must say that even though my dds coaches know she will be tallish (it is apparent already), they see alot in her and are trying to work with rather than against it.

I have absolutely no clue what a dd is, or what dd means.

Posting shorthand here and elsewhere:

DD = Dear/darling daughter.
DS = Dear/Darling son.
DH = Dear/Darling Husband.
DW = Dear/Darling Wife.
SO = Significant Other.

AFAIK, that's the standard interpretation. http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=30289

[QUOTE=sk8rdad59;418525].

2. Center of gravity - Each skaters center of gravity is different, for males who's center tends to be higher as they mature and develop shoulders A top shaped like a pear will spin more stabily if the wide part is at the bottom rather than the top.

For girls the center of gravity changes as they mature and it's their filling out that tends to affect their jumps more than their height.

Slightly OTT, but, it's interesting to read your posting re: the difference in the male vs. the female physique in terms of jumping: I've heard it from a few coaches, but, not many, and generally, just from coaches, oddly enough, who have coached high-level male skaters. My DS's coach shifts jump technique training methodology when coaching him vs. the way our DD is coached; the explanation being what you note above, and definitely more markedly as puberty hits.

My coach is constantly telling me to use my long legs (I just measured them, they are 2 feet 9 inches long, from heel to where the inside of my thigh ends. I am 5'7 overall. You know what a huge pain it was to find 9.5 size skates?) When my coach is telling me that all I am thinking about is how she's like four inches shorter than me, as are all the other coaches and all of the skaters in the 13+ range. (I am nearly 14. Since I am maturing 2 years earlier than my mom did, I am hoping that will cut off my height growth. She is 6'.) I shouldn't let it get to me. But I do. Nobody's ever made a comment about it, except the long leg comments. It's reading about 5'3 Olympian champions that depresses me..

In men, height doesn't seem to matter much at all, simply because they have so much more natural strength. I've always thought that hips/bust in women is the biggest deciding factor, because that's what sticks out in jumps and spins. Also consider that 5'3 women can fit into child size skates and dresses and that cuts down the cost of skating, which may be another reason they are more likely to make it to Worlds.

There are so many factors, it is impossible to present a cut-and-dried conclusion. Women this tall have a better chance. Women with this cup size and hip size have a better chance. Women with this length of legs have a better chance. False. No, it just depends so much on a million other factors.

I think leg muscle is another factor in split-spiral impressiveness. Skaters with thick thighs have less pretty spirals. Skaters with twiggy legs have more impressive spirals. (That's what I've noticed, anyway.)

I do have one thing going for me. Small hips and bust. Looking at the bust size of my mother and aunts, none of them have anything significant. I don't know what cup size (A? B? Can't really identify upon appearance.) Of course, with my luck, I'll defy genetics and become a 6'4 34D curvy-hipped skater. I am madly hoping I follow the same path as my mother and stop growing soon after, er, maturing. I have noticed that I have the most trouble doing spins. My spins really look like that of a Basic 7/8 skater, while my footwork quality makes me look higher level, and jumps fall right where they should be. I wobble in spins and am hopeless at staying balanced enough to cross my leg. The spinning top theory makes sense here. I do also have more power and nice leg extension, but if I have the slightest fault in extension or leg straightening it makes me look terribly awkward and out-of-place. In videos, I notice how much I crouch when standing in a group of other skaters, and how I lean away from my coach to avoid seeing the height difference. It's all done subconsciously..

(See how much I obsess over this? I know I shouldn't..)
Who was the tallest female singles skater ever to compete at Worlds or higher? In the last twenty years, not way back when doing a single axel was considered top level.

sorry for that long post!

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DD started wearing a sports bra when she discovered her "surprise!" 32C bust that suddenly - emerged - was throwing off spins; the flattening effect was effective and efficient. She does a lot of other training, and as she pointed out, she "straps 'em down" to run to make it more comfortable, why would she do anything else to skate? When not on the ice ... bye-bye- UnderArmour lingerie, hello, Victoria's Secret

The savings that come from being able to fit into kids-sized skates and dresses are hardly significant (especially when you're talking an elite skater). Most elite skaters aren't exactly buying off-the-rack dresses from Del Arbour, they have everything made custom (more $$), most of the time their skates are custom (more $$). One of my skating sidekicks can fit into kid's stuff and she can probably confirm that it doesn't save her a whole ton of money.

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One who comes to mind from longer ago than that but who did have triple salchow and a good double axel at a time when that was average senior lady jump content was Lisa Marie Allen, who I believe is 5'10"

Other skaters at least 5'7" who have competed at Worlds in the last 20 years include

Alice Sue Claeys

Marina Kielmann

Lucinda Ruh

Carolina Kostner, who has won a couple of world medals and European titles, is about 5' 6 1/2"

Confirmed. My skates are size 3 and a half kids, and my new pair that I got in May still cost over 1K and that was with getting a discount on the blades. I don't fit into kids size dresses, I'm a 4-6 in Del Arbour. It saves me nothing on skating costs. I can, however, buy cheaper sneakers.

Not all short women can fit into kids sizes, though. One of my students is 11 years old and her skates and shoes are way bigger than mine. I'm 5 feet 2 and a half inches and she's slightly shorter than me.

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Piper and Alexe Gilles are 5'7. You don't notice Piper's size as much since she's a dancer with a tall (6'2) partner, but Alexe's height is certainly obvious when she's skating (on TV or in person, TV commentators always point it out). She's not one of those tall/lanky types either, she's built like an athlete. But she's had success on the national scene recently, at least in Junior.

Joannie Rochette doesn't exactly fit the norm either. She's only 5'2 but that girl is BUILT and therefore weighs more than skaters her height with less muscle mass. (Obviously she's strong so launching that extra size into the air is no big deal.)

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Cynthia Phaneuf. A good example of a small girl who struggled when she grew. She's shown now as 170 cm (which is around 5'7") - definitely athletic in build.

But, to me, 5'7" is still on the small side; I think of tall as starting around 5'9" and up for girls, 6'0" or so and up for guys, just because I'm looking at the percentile rankings in growth charts.

Where do you live? It's very rare for me to meet a woman that is taller than me (I'm 5'7). In fact, a lot of people comment on how tall I am. The average for American women is 5'4, as somebody already said on here.
The average for figure skaters at my rink seems to be 5'1-5'4. I think the tallest female coach here is 5'6, maybe?? She appears tall but I think she is shorter than me still.
Today I saw a skater who had to be 5'10 or taller. So there is somebody in the rink who is both female and taller than me. Astounding.

If there were women my height at Worlds, then I still have a chance at being something resembling a good skater And if a 5'10 skater had a triple salchow, an even better chance for me to perhaps land a double something some day.

True, Olympians would have custom everything. At a lower level it would probably save a few bucks now and then, though.

Did the 32C's affect her jumps, or only her spins?

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Toronto, Canada.

At 5'7", I am pretty much average among my group; my daughter stands out at 5'9". However, as always, the danger of assuming one's own experience as being representative of norms is apparent; growth charts show 5'6" for females as being the 74th percentile and 5'7" as being the 85th percentile, which shows how rapidly the percentiles increase with each incremental increase in height. I wouldn't find 5'7" tall,in my own circle of people, nor in the school of 2,000+ students in which I teach, excepting, perhaps among my Grade 9's - certainly not among my Grade 10 or 11's - perhaps it is representative of your age rather than your absolute height that people find your height surprising - ? Also, depending on where you live, there are different "average" heights: for example, a town in Manitoba has one of the largest Icelandic populations outside of Iceland, and the height there is unusually tall IIRC from living nearby.

My DD, by comparison, is definitely tall at 5'9" at 16 (97th percentile). Which leads to an extrapolation regarding tall skaters: if 97% of woman are under 5'9", then, statistically, it would be abnormal for more than 3 out of every 100 skaters to be of that height; thus, perhaps it is not entirely self-selection but rather representative of the population itself? (Note: I'm not sure which variant of the paediatric growth chart I'm using; it's one sourced through Sick Kids hospital in Toronto).

The 32C's? I would say the 36" inseam is the bigger issue, and a severely damaged right ankle. The bust, not a problem since she began skating in underarmour sports bra with tight lululemon athletic tank over top - the same as what she runs in. However, other maturing young ladies who do not wear supportive undergarments do express displeasure over comfort and balance. The bigger problem is finding dresses and skating pants (or tights) that fit.

[QUOTE=icestalker;418621True, Olympians would have custom everything. At a lower level it would probably save a few bucks now and then, though.[/QUOTE]

Nope. The size 1 Riedells cost the same as the size 10 Riedells; the 5" Gold Seals cost the same as the 10-1/2". If you can even GET the size 1 Riedells - it's often hard to find tiny sizes in advanced skates (sigh). Same with dresses ... it's not the material it's the labour in making them ... sigh.

(Parent of a 20th percentile daughter with child's size 12 feet at age 8, and a 97th percentile daughter with size 9-1/2 feet.)

And I've got a 5'3" daughter and a 5'8" daughter (who is 19 and had a tiny growth spurt this year, odd!) who have the same size 7 feet! Isn't it odd how foot size and height can be so unconnected?

I agree that puberty seems to do the women in as much, if not more, as a spurt in height - hips and boobs take some effort to get around, as well as setting off center of balance. Hormones can play havoc on joints too - how many female skaters have pounded their bodies and had to quit in their mid to late teens (prime puberty zone)?

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It's not the existence of hips and boobs that do women in (in comparison with men); it's that fact that the hips and boobs give women aa higher body fat-to-muscle ratio. Less muscle makes it harder to develop power. More height added on requires more muscle to move.

There are exceptions. A tall slim female with slim hips and a small bust might find it easier to jump and spin than a short woman with wide hips and large boobs. There's usually a pretty wide range of body types in the Senior Ladies event at Nationals, even if the ones who make the final group tend to be pretty similar.

Having hips/boobs doesn't mean that someone doesn't have as much muscle mass and power, though. Someone can have a body that carries a ton of muscle mass and a lot of physical strength, but still have hips and a chest on top of that. (Especially hips, they aren't always due to body fat, that also comes from bone structure.) A lot of that is based on genetics. I have a body that carries a lot of muscle mass for a female my height. I have the same muscle mass now at 29 years old as I did at 22 years old, even though I'm 30 pounds heavier (I know because I just had my body composition tested, since I'm trying to lose those 30 pounds) and I'm actually phsyically stronger now than I was then. And sheer muscle mass doesn't always mean someone is strong. One of the strongest females I know (a girl from my roller derby league) is this skinny little tiny thing with chicken legs. There is another lady I work with who is very skinny but everyone watches her in awe when she pounds the weights in our company gym, she's lifting almost as much as some of the guys.

Look at Katerina Witt. I've always thought she had the perfect figure (and obviously so did Playboy). I realize she was a lot leaner at the height of her competitive career than when she turned pro, but she was still able to jump after she put on (good) weight. I idolized her when I was a kid because she didn't fit the itty bitty skater mold and actually looked like a healthy, beautiful woman.

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A good example of someone who maintained very good physical conditioning over a long period of time is Denise Biellman. She could still do most of the jumps that she did when she won Worlds 20 years later, and still do every spin.

That woman was a freak of nature (in a good way).

Training extremely hard at a young age in elite sports does have a way of somewhat "delaying" puberty. That's why lots of gymnasts and some skaters balloon after they retire. They look prepubescent, and the year after they retire they look like full-grown women.

People should work with what they have, though. Don't like the idea of women or men trying to artificially mold their body into something it is not. Not a good idea, and not safe physically or psychologically.

Back in 84 Witt was as "itty bitty" skater as one could get, with a fierce competitive spirit However, there have always been a myriad of different types of skaters in elite competitions even before then. I think the marginalized skater "types" have only become more apparent in more recent times, especially with the new judging system and emphasis on gaining points by doing elements that some types of skaters just aren't physically good (or even capable) of doing.

Rachel Flatt is an excellent skater, but Biellmans and Pearls aren't her thing - for example.

My skates were about $50 cheaper because I got "kids" instead of "women's" (Jackson Competitors) I wear a size 3 boot. (Looking at rainbo it appears to be only a $10 difference now, but the Elite has a $50 difference.. but the Reidel 1500HLS has a $100+ gap between girls and womens. That's a big difference.)


The biggest savings though is I have a constant stream of elementary schoolers growing out of their skates. My current pair cost me $50, with Gold Seals- they were scratched up like crazy from a skater learning a backspin, but while the blade was somewhat worn down, the boot was not at all.

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That's what I meant. Kid's or girl's, not smaller sizes in women's. When I said child size.. I literally meant child size.

So very true- not everyone is capable of Biellmanns, outside spread eagles, contortionist spins (like Kayla's Catch). So those people who were gifted with that flexibility get the points. Makes no sense.

Do smaller people have more natural flexibility?

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Right Brain: In the distant future, I will land all of the doubles.
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