I think he was wearing black tights. Men are only allowed to wear pants or trousers.

(In the Grand Prix series this fall in France, the Russian ice dancers Khokhlova & Novitski received a costume deduction in the FD because he wore tights.)

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

hello all,
Many of you know that i have not posted in a very long time. Athough there are generally good intentions among the group i found some of the negativity on the board to be something i needed to step back from as nothiung possitive was coming from it for my own skating. For each their own. But in light of the recent pairs accident i will post a point by point summary of a few items of concern. I am not at liberty at this time to discuss certain details of the actual event , but the events leading up to it. please read my words carefully and be careful not to assume conclusions that are not given from me.

first a kittle ventng:
From the beginning of the week the practice ice problem existed for skaters of every discipline in the sense that the practice ice for some reason could not be organized in advance by computer. Instead people were forced to spend time they would be resting and preparing for an event sitting in practice ice line everyday to meet with the man with the quill and ink pen from the stone age. Stephen and i were treated rudely by a certain lady in
the practice ice office, who said "DON"T BLAME ORDA" yes miss "wouldn't want to mention any names" we are blaming orda not the loc. Every other venue has moved from the stone age so how about giving it a try. Im sure if you ask for advice from thoise who ran it in the past they would be glad to help you, but you might have to admit your system sucks first. As for how you "don't have to stay here to help us" we paid to get here, we pay usfsa membership dues and you are not here as a volunteer like the loc. Theres things I don't like doing at my job lady but i get paid to so i do. if you don't like yiour job try monsterjobs.com I wouldn't suggest customer service fields.


okay standup act over...now the facts

In 20007 sectionals there were no practice sessions until Andrea and i became the joan of arch for the pairs community and stuck our necks out and recieved nasty emails of a personal level from organizers there. In the end a few early sessions were tacked on. the needs of the dance teams were recognized in advance. not a problem there.

AT AN 2008 the pairs ice sessions were tack ons at the end of the day. I too am a singles skater (ahem although not a very good one) however I have quite a bit of experience in pairs. sorry people, pairs is more dangerous and if you want to try flying across the rink oversomeones head and falling you would not argue that fact. I wish I could say that it is a matter of opinion, but its really just common sense. lifts are timing oriented. I have had the honor of being lifted and instructed by many senior level pairs skaters and olympians, and guess what? J Paul didn't take a blade to the head in a singles element.

as for the commentary that we could choose not to go to it, (the late night sessions) i am not interested in starting a war here, i am willing to respect everyones freedom to speak, but Im assuming yiou may not have been aware that there were no other options open. I could however choose to to not practice singles that late BECAUSE THERE WERE OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE!!!! timing is everything in pairs. we do have to practice.

I would like correct a certain someones statement from the powers that be. Dance was not mingled with pairs in practice sessions. dance was allowed to invade practice ice on pairs sessios but we were not allowed to invade theirs. thats not mingling, its a one way problem that only compromised the safety of pairs. Eye for an eye should have been allowed to walk onto a dance session and do an over the head twist lift amid the compulsory dances? of course not that would be ridiculous.

the day of the accident:

9 teams were assigned the ice together. the ice had not been cut prior. the ice was not in good condition with divits like a bad golf game. if you were not on the ice please don't assume to know the condition of the ice. If you are a team that does overheads you know the ramifications of divits. we all do now.

nova will correct me on this but i beleive that a few rules were being broken at the time of the incident . I believe the rule already states the limit to the number of teams on the ice and that in a sanctioned championship event the official practice must be on the same surface as the competition. if that is the case then a certain comment from the powers that be saying we are working on creating rules and regulations to limit the number of teams" is even sadder. thanks, but you don't need to make rules you need to follow them!!!!

I realize this is a long post but its most likely the only one.

oh as far as the lift having a bad entry comment, Im sorry but if you were not there , did not witness it, and do not have extensive experince in over the head lifts I don't think yiou can make that judgement. so to say the lift had a bad entry is odd. can you pick a man out of a police lineup if you did not see the bank get robbed?

these are simply statements made by someone who was there for all of the events discussed in previous posts. everyone has the right to speak there mind. its the beauty of the freedom of speech. but we must all be careful to keep the difference between an opinion and a fact. feel free to comment but be careful what you state as fact if you were not there. thank you for entertaining my cameo ont eh board LOL if there are any changes that can come of this then that will be great for the future safety of adult pairs. its sad however that we fought so hard to get someone to listen for years. yet suddenly when someone fractures a few vertabrae, now certain people are concerned and all ears. Why is that ? no cared before but now we fear being held responsible so CYA? you kow megeans law is a great thing but the bottom line is its not going to bring megean back. hindsight is 20 /20 but listening the first time would have been a better idea!


as far as the human critter on the ice. shame on the ice monitor who allowed that to be pre planned, and at my rink we have a no shoes on the ice rule for a reason. you bring dirt from the street out on the ice. if you can't hold your liquor don't drink. it was disrespectful to the team taking their bows center ice and the next team to skate. some people just need to be the center of attention at all times. but if i have to explain to you that thats rude, its probably a waste of o2

T.,

I can't speak to the other points in your post, but there were no shoes on the ice with the critter. She was in her sock feet, and we had worked out with the sweeper to pull her back so that she wouldn't even step on the ice with her socks.

I'm sorry that this show of support for you and your partner bothered you.

This was not a drunken prank, we had planned and practiced it so that it wouldn't interfere with the event, but show support. And, also be funny.

Rob

__________________
Geriatric Figure Skating Crew - President for Life!
Georgia Figure Skating Club - President (again)
Facebook
____________________________________________
"I'm too old to die young, and too smart to be happy" - Kinky Friedman, The Mile High Club

2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
2009 Adult Nationals - competing with a cold is not much fun.
2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!

Since nothing anyone does seems to be up to your standards, maybe you need to chair a competition and run it yourself? That way you can set up everything just the way you want it and the h#@& with everyone else.

Personally, I found the ORDA people to be very pleasant to deal with, within the restrictions that they were forced to deal with. And all of the LOC volunteers were very nice and willing to help.

The only issue I had was with the scheduling of official warm-ups on different rinks from the competition ice. It made it difficult to block out the program and get oriented on the competition surface. But, hey, it's skating, you go with the flow. *shrugs*

[QUOTE=jazzpants;361950]

The other thing that was depressing is seeing the Lussi rink all ripped up. Anyone there know what they're doing on that particular rink?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They're replacing the Lussi Rink with a full size sheet of ice, and building an attached Convention Center.

Progress? Guess so, but I'll miss the Lussi rink's charm and regret I never skated on it.

Pat

My understanding it is not a full sheet of ice but rather a studio rink which would be about the same size as the Lussi.

The point may be moot anyway since the construction has been placed on an indefinite hold as of last Saturday.

__________________
Keeping School Figures Alive!!

[QUOTE=blue111moon;362127]The only issue I had was with the scheduling of official warm-ups on different rinks from the competition ice. It made it difficult to block out the program and get oriented on the competition surface. [QUOTE]

I confess to getting disoriented in my program twice. When I think back on it now, I think I changed the layout of the program twice right in the middle of my competitive skate without realizing it. I'm still not sure exactly at what point or when I got turned around. As much as I thought the ice looked nice without the lines, circles and dots, it made me realize just how dependent I've become on those markings when I skate. It also made me realize how much I still must be looking down when I skate. lol Let's just say this event, regardless of the final outcome, has been an incredible learning experience for me in many ways.

I want to thank everyone for the condolences of everyone that has posted their well wishes towards Lovepairs and me. Your support is felt and very much appriciated.

Andrea, for various reasons is focusing on her healing process and is conciously staying away from the public forum discussion process. I have passed on to her the level of support that has occurred here and I know she is in individual contact with many that post here.

This morning, I copied and sent Tara's post to her. She found the reference to poster that mentioned the possibility of a 'weak entry' into the lift. She asked that I post the following on her behalf as she will not be posting directly for some time:

"About the "weak entry" comment: most likely it will be a very long recovery time before I can skate again, but all of the suffering I'm going through right now, was totally worth how wonderful it felt to go up on a perfectly smooth entry. It was the best "up" (as pairteams call it)that Lee and I ever experienced doing the Back Press, which we've been practicing for over two years now. For those of you who have never skated pairs, please don't speculate upon what happened. What happened is very intimate to the entire pairs community and we will take care of it. Any negativity, or criticism about Lee's footwork is not welcomed at this time, because all of the pairsmen will rally behind him and tell you that he has some of the best lift foot-work in the business."

As everyone knows, this has been very difficult for me for obvious reasons and I'm grateful to have Andrea's continued support throughout this time.

At the time of the fall, the lift (or 'up' as Andrea refers to it) had been fully established. The fall occured at the begining of the rotation phase.

Thanks again for everyones support

Frank: I'm so sorry that you DID went thru that b/c I know what you were capable of when you skate. (((Frank)))

I was worried about the lines too! However, I did noticed that there were lines along the wall and I followed that. That seemed to help me a lot! (And yes, I did do a bit of scoping of the rink PRIOR to the event (particularly my starting position) pretty much b/c I wanted to avoid what you went thru.

I thought he was wearing a unitard. Maybe that's why he got a deduction on costume?

And he looks GREAT for a guy who's closing in on 50 there!!! Frank: Would you please give Moves Guru a hug and a kiss for me. And tell him that I was so happy to see him again.

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

It is very scary and dangerous when you get on the ice with pair skaters. I almost ran into Tara and Jason during an overhead lift ... extremely scary

__________________
Tim David's Website

I find this kind of response inappropriate. It is also a cop-out if you consider that one does not need to actually run an event to comprehend the logistics of the situation.

For example, I have not headed an LOC or scheduled a competition, but in my professional experiences as a Chief Resident and physician at a large medical center, I was entrusted to schedule 40 doctors in training for covering two ERs, two in-patient wards and two hospital consultation services 24 hours a day/7 days a week for an entire year. I scheduled for 40 doctors of all different backgrounds, and had to schedule around conflicts ranging from family responsibilities, vacations, religious obligations and their educational/training needs. If you think scheduling a competition is stressful, think about scheduling MEDICAL CARE for very ill people with overworked resident doctors. It's tough and I know it. I had to schedule all this under enormous pressure, as people very lives (the patients) and careers (the doctors) depended on it.

I understand the issues of scheduling through this kind of "real-life" professional experience, and people cannot always assume others "have no idea what it is like...." Many of us do know through analogous and similar life experiences.

That being said, I will refect a common sentiment often posted here. It's a CHOICE for LOC members and volunteers to put out the bid to make money for their home clubs. If you don't believe you can do it well, or it is too difficult, then don't do it. It's a big responsibility, but the difficulty does not reliquish the responsibility to do it well. It was the choice of all who volunteered.

Cop-outs like the one above do not add to the discussion of how things can be improved to enhance safety for the adult pair skaters.

Cheers!

Larry

I will apologize for repeating this, as you're right, I was not there. It's what I was told from others who were there (who don't come to this board). And it was in no way intended as a slight against Lee at all.

It does happen to the best of skaters (look at Maxim Marinin!) so i don't think those who told me their opinion that it was a bad lift entry meant it as a slight either. Just an accident.

Certainly if Andrea doesn't think the entry had anything to do with it, then I defer to her opinion.

As for the quality of ice issue, I will only say that again, I was told by some who were on the ice that it was fine. And that was all I said. To each his own. I was told by singles skaters that their ice was a mixed bag between good and bad as well. If the ice is bad, obviously that sucks, but then it was equally bad for everyone.

Yes, as already clarified, rules were broken about the number of teams allowed on the ice. That was never under debate, thankyouverymuch, and should have been followed. And yes, it sucks if practice ice was late. And it sucks if the ice was bad. My point throughout this entire discussion, coming from the perspective of a past LOC organizer, is simply that you have to make lemonade out of the lemons you are given. Make your choices accordingly. The organizers really don't go out of their way to piss off the skaters. If there are things that need improvement, and there always are, politely address the LOC and Adult Committee with things that require improvement. Every year there are going to be problems, that's just a given. It's up to every adult skater as to how we handle them.

And for what it's worth, I did hear (again, I heard, I wasn't there) that a Pair team got onto a designated singles ice practice and were eventually asked to leave. If that is indeed true, so what of all the safety issues there? It rings very hollow for some of the Pairs to scream "safety issues!!!!" while one of their own gets on a designated singles practice. That Pairs team certainly didn't represent the other Pairs teams' cause very well by pulling that stunt.

From my understanding, Lake Placid did a lot of things right: logo on the ice, announcing IJS scores after every skater, and just being the gorgeous location that it is. It would be nice if that were more acknowledged by some here.

And why, since I wasn't there, might I even have an interest in knowing how well LP was run? Well, since I'm working on writing the manual, and I'm on the Adult Committee, it is important to me that I know what went well and what didn't. As a skater and competitor, it is also in my personal interest to have a well-run event after all!

__________________
Listen to my Figure Skating Podcast!

Rogue Element, Inc

Larry, while I bow to your expertise as a physician, I have to say that unless you HAVE run a skating competition, you don't really KNOW how to run one. I've run more than 20 and while none of them have been on the scale of Adult Nationals, they're still totally different from all of the other events I've run and scheduled in my professional life.

Plus your focus seems to be entirely on pairs. Which is understandable because that's your event. However, nine pairs = 18 people. There were what three pairs events at Lake Placid. In the grand scope of the entire competition that's pretty minor. Demanding that the entire competition be scheduled to suit 9 entries seems a little (okay, more than a little) arrogant to me. There are a lot more people concerned with the competition than your small group.

To quote the old Peace Corps slogan "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." If you want a competition run the way you think it should be run, then run it yourself and SHOW people that your way is better. But just grousing and whinging about how bad things were after the fact isn't going to get you anything other than a reputation as a griper and a whinger.

From my perspective Lake Placid did a great job. Whether they made money or not is debateable - competitions don't make nearly the profits that a lot of people seem to think they do (and that's something else you learn when you run one). From the comments I've seen here and elsewhere, the gripers and whingers make up a very small minority of the skaters who went to AN. 90% of the people there had a positive experience. It would be a shame if the 10% who didn't spoil it for everyone else.

That is, thankfully, always the case. And I'd actually say it's more like 95% to 5%. But it's a very vocal 5%!

But to be completely fair, some of the whining has produced some positive changes in how to approach future ANs, and the legitimate complaints have been/are being addressed.

My only hope is just that when ice isn't perfect, the stars aren't aligned properly, and things aren't scheduled perfectly, everyone could take a deep breath and realize it wasn't done personally against them. All any of us in life can do is make the best of bad situations. Because . . . I'll repeat it again . . . we can make recommendations over and over and over to future LOCs, but there's never a guarantee they will be able to accommodate everyone's wishes.

__________________
Listen to my Figure Skating Podcast!

Rogue Element, Inc

One of the things that impressed me was every 45 min practice ice there was a resurfacing. (That was Tuesday when I was there, I dont know how it was during the week)

I did like the way Bensenville handled their practice ice - no long lines, everybody was there to help you out. {Honestly I thank heavens that I didnt have to deal with those lines at LP}
When I was there at 2004 and thought that they would have improved on that}
I know everybody's situation is different, but being an OCD person, I like to know and reserve things way in advance - even a week beforehand, because I certainly dont want to be worried when I arrive at the site.

And yes, I do agree that LOC really dont intend and go out of their way to piss off their competitors. Thats silly, Im sure they want things to go smoothly. And if there are bumps...were human..and we all make mistakes

__________________
Tim David's Website

Also as a person who has been on top in overhead lifts and been taught by Sr. pairs and olympians....... the first lesson I was taught was safety, and that in the end it was my responsibility. Good ice, or bad ice, low numbers or high numbers on the ice - once you are aware of these conditions it is your responsibility to determine if the conditions are safe for your needs and your abilities. Yes, there were probably too many pairs on the ice, as there have been for my previous pairs events at LP, the ice may have been poor. If you go out there and skate, it is up to you to you account for and accept these conditions. If you decide to skate under "substandard" conditions, fine, then you accept the responsibility. All pair skaters are, or at least should be aware of the risks in overheads, and should as well be aware of their own abilities. Knowing this, having "no choice" is not an excuse for poor judgment. You can't preach the risks, and then not take responsibility for your own choices. You have a choice and you make it. If you felt safe - great, but you can't make the decisions for the others on the ice.

Also unfortunately accidents happen - not due to ice or bad lifts or too many people on the ice. If you have suggestions to make, then do so in an appropriate manner. If you have lessons to learn, then great. An attempt to place blame without being willing to first accept personal responsibility does no one good.


As quoted:
"What happened is very intimate to the entire pairs community and we will take care of it. "
Please remember that for good or bad no one person or team represents "the entire pairs community". What we all do represents and reflects on our community.

__________________
Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Not recently, right? They last skated together in 2005--unless they've been sneaking aorund behind my back!

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Hey Jazzpants,

Thanks! I'm alright with how I skated. I can't say I don't wish things had gone differently but there were some positives to go in with the negatives and like I said, the experience has certainly reinforced what I need to work on and what I need to focus on as I prepare for an event. Though I'd have been thrilled if things had gone much better, I'm kind of glad this happened. It's given me a new perspective on things. I'm already looking forward to next season. I'll pass your message on to Edward.

Take care,

Frank

<<Gasp!!>> A potential pairs tryst in the making?!?!?! SKANDALOUS!!

Again, while this may be true about my direct experience, you can't assume that others will not understand or be able to discuss. The ability to relate to the organizers through similar life experiences should be recognized. We may not know directly, but we are intelligent enough to understand discussion about the matter.

There's also more to mention. I have a great deal more singles experience than pair skating (I have skated in 9 ANs as a singles skater and been to LP four times), which I took up in 2002. In 11 years of ANs, no one can accuse me of ever ragging on an LOC or even being displeased (with the exception of 2006) publically in a forum such as this. I have skated early, skated late, been forgotten, been conflicted in scheduling, etc. all as a singles skater, and just worked through it. Others will attest to this fact that in general I roll with the punches. When things are done well, I give my sincerest thanks. When things are poor, I just consider not returning to that venue the next time. Personal choice, as all advise here.

However, my focus in this thread is the pair event because that appears to be a necessary discussion topic. There is no need to re-iterate all the problems, but if members of this LOC would recognize and take responsibility for them, we can all move forward, somehow benefitting from this traumatic experience.

I find your position that intelligent adults "can't understand" an impasse to fruitful discussion, and it is also narrow-minded to believe "no one will understand unless they have done it........" I also object to the classification of stating one's objections to problems as "whining". Your cynicism is evident, and if you view valid concerns as "whining", maybe you should evaluate how you respond publically, because it appears you may be unintentionally insulting your colleagues who have issues to discuss.

We can understand and we all need to discuss when traumatized like this to start healing. Maybe you should be a little more understanding about that. This was a trauma for many, not just the skaters involved, but a large part of the adult pair skating community. It will take a long time for this to heal. Your patience and understanding would be appreciated.

Cheers!

Larry

Ahhhhh! I just want to point out that I had heard repeatedly throughout this thread and elsewhere this exact statement from Pairs skaters! That I just don't understand it unless I have done it myself, and therefore my opinion isn't valid. Seems a bit hypocritical, no?

(Just giving you a hard time, Larry! )

As someone with many friends in Pairs, and who would love to do Pairs myself, and who has sat in on numerous Pairs clinics, and have considered the safety issues from an LOC point of view, thank you for understanding that non-pairs skaters do, in fact, understand the safety issues involved in pairs.

__________________
Listen to my Figure Skating Podcast!

Rogue Element, Inc

Excellent. The point now is to collect and detail all these anecdotes and incidents so that they can serve as examples such that the process can be more efficient and more fully thought out next time.

Spot on, again. I think some folks feel (and granted, perception is not reality) that nothing has changed from year to year or that certain issues have been blatantly ignored. I don't think it was one things but several problems, such that it was the accident on the practice ice that was the final straw that broke the camel's back.

To be sure, I had a fantabulous time in Lake Placid. The people at the registration desk (especially Linda) were amazing. Some of the volunteers even said that their hands were tied becasue of what ORDA would or would not do. (I think it also must be said that ORDA is NOT a typical LOC; it is, really, a corporation. They have more resources than a typical LOC.)

As someone else said, that does not mean that we cannot express our discontent with certain issues that we feel are not merely inconveniences, but *legitimate* safety problems and serious oversights. In fact, many of us have volunteered at events organized by our clubs, and some of our clubs have even hosted standard track regionals/sectionals/nationals, or in my club's case, cohosted Worlds in 2003.

(P.S. For the record, there were 5 pair events with 16 teams competing from bronze pairs through championship pairs. Hopefully, these numbers will grow. )

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Linda is amazing. She compiled all the feedback we got from AN2004 and instituted new ideas to make the process run smoother. I worked registration both in 2004 and last week and believe me, things were a lot better this time around. Perfect? No, but better. Any ideas people have from this AN will be most helpful and we can incorporate them into AN when we do it again.

ORDA is funded by the state and we have to bow to their whims. It drives us crazy as well.

__________________
Keeping School Figures Alive!!

Ah ha! Thank you for confirming my suspicions!

Linda really is a treasure. Tara and I need to send her a fruit basket for helping us out so much.

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

I think she would love it!

All in all we cannot say enough good things about the adult skaters.

My wife worked the 2nd hand shop on Wednesday, Friday and Saturday and everyone who came in was really nice.

__________________
Keeping School Figures Alive!!