AN Pairs Skating Discussion - Page 2

2salch0w · #26 11-30-2008, 08:39 AM

Flo - I wholeheartedly agree that your situation sux, is unfair and should be addressed. And thanks for all the details, I certainly didn't know all of that history. I think the one point that we may not have made yet is that Gold FS skaters can only step down to Silver Pairs if they have the pairs test to back it up. So it allows you to give precedence to your pairs testing level, as long as it is only one level down. I think this rule makes a lot of sense, and came out of some good *thought*, but clearly not full-and-comprehensive thought that encompassed the whole of adult pair skating leveling issues.

Can we agree on that run-on sentence at least?

I guess what we'll keep disagreeing on is whether the whole structure should have been addressed in an all-or-nothing fashion or not. I have found that sometimes you need to chip away at these things, and trying to boil the ocean all at once just gets you nowhere.

For all I know, you're the only person affected by the specific situation you describe below. Not that that doesn't mean it is important to address, but I think you need to be your own advocate, which it sounds like you have now done. My earlier posts were just trying to address the resentment you seem to have towards those that tried to address issues that they saw before them, and yours wasn't one of them. You have to admit, your issue is quite esoteric and not something one would just wonder about in the absence of having someone like you to raise it.

So others didn't speak up for you. That's not great, but that is often how it goes. Speak up for yourself ... personal responsibility and all that.

Geez, I sound like a freakin' republican.

Tim

Quote:

Originally Posted by flo

Skaternum - exactly, I don't have a problem with fs skaters qualifying for pairs, but make it equal.

Before there was an adult pair structure we took the then first test, the preliminary pairs test. A couple years later this test was dropped from the program and it's name changed to juvenile. So we were all then juvenile. Then later a pre-juvenile test was added below the juv test. At first these skaters were not permitted at AN, but following discussions they were allowed to compete. Then the actual requirements for the juvenile test were changed. Then along came the adult structure and the standard tests were not crossing over to the adult tests. So I tested the bronze and silver pair tests. I was involved in several more discussions with the then pair chair and then came the decision that the tests would cross over and juvenile would be silver or gold. So no point in taking any more tests. Following this at some point the preliminary test was brought back. Then juvenile became gold. Recently the preliminary test has once again been eliminated and everyone who has taken the preliminary test prior to 2008 is now pre-juvenile - except if you took the preliminary test when it was around the first time, you are juvenile. Still with me?

So, the problem is that the test that many of us took to compete (preliminary changed to juvenile, preliminary changed to pre-juv) are not the same pre juvenile/Juvenile tests as today, yet the cross-over levels are the same. If you look at the test requirements from 92, when we first started working on the adult program and had visions of a national adult competition, they are more equivalent to a pre-juv or a silver test, which was originally suggested. Up to now, it was not as much of a problem because there were inequities across the board with fs skaters entering pairs and the influx of new pairs.

Now we can have within gold pairs a pair with a gold test, the current juvenile test and those taking the old preliminary turned juvenile test which is equivalent to the silver pair test. In addition, the recent standard changes will alter the placement of those adults who have taken the recent preliminary tests and who are now pre-juvenile. They were bronze pairs, and now are silver. Add to this the flexibility given to the fs skaters skating pairs and it's a MESS. The current gold pair champions can skate silver pairs while silver level skaters will be in gold, and so forth down the line. Given this situation, the first step should have been to give the current pair skaters the flexibility, make sure the standard and adult tests are comparable and then add the fs skaters to the mix.

So a little more involved than roads and bridges.

flo · #27 11-30-2008, 11:21 AM

"I certainly didn't know all of that history."
This is the problem, no one took the time to look into the history.
It's definitely not just my situation, I know several skaters in this exact position.
The rules are very confusing, inconsistent and incorrect. Take a look at the dates, and you'll see that the gold rule has been recently edited to correct one I pointed out, and there are more. The pair test is not required for the option. In bronze, you can qualify with a preliminary pairs test. In the first place, there is no longer a preliminary pairs test. Anyone who has taken the test between when it was re-installed and 2008 is now pre-juvenile and thus silver pairs. Imagine that surprise! Also, you can have a bronze and no higher than silver free to qualify for bronze. In silver it's stated that one skater may have a silver but not higher than gold fs level to qualify. It's a mess.

I'm all for chipping away at issues, but this one is so very riddled with mistakes and inconsistencies that it deserved more care and thought than given. It should be a matter of course to look at the rules and determine how they would impact existing skaters. We're not talking about past skaters or something so distant that no one is around anymore. These are currently active skaters.

Isk8NYC · #28 11-30-2008, 11:57 AM

Perhaps the AC is relying on estimates or inaccurate data for their decisions. I have to wonder if the Adult Committee has access to the USFSA rolls. I know that the membership "categories" were changed two years ago, so it's possible that they're not seeing the real impact in advance? I know I sound like I'm making their excuses, but I really think it's a distinct possibility.

I find it incredibly useful to pull a list of all students before I agree to restructure or change required minimum test scores. Then I can run "What If" scenarios to see the impact of the changes. It makes decision making so much easier.

flo · #29 11-30-2008, 12:09 PM

Exactly! There has to be a history somewhere. They could also have looked at all AN pair entries for the last 5 years or so. I'd also like to know if the preliminary pairs who are now pre-juv. were notified? It would be a mess if a pair was anticipating to compete in bronze and are unaware that they are now silver. It's misleading in that the announcement still says preliminary pairs, but it no longer exists. Also on the USFSA site, it just states that anyone taking a preliminary pair test prior to 2008 is now pre-juvenile. However this is not true. I took it in '92 and I'm juvenile pairs. It needs a start date.

Isk8NYC · #30 11-30-2008, 12:30 PM

I don't think the Adult Committee has access to the USFSA information.

I remember their efforts a few years ago to conduct their own surveys, to ascertain how many "adult skaters" were in different areas around the country. (Part of the Adult Skating Ambassador effort, that's now gone quiet.)

sk8lady · #31 12-01-2008, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2salch0w

So others didn't speak up for you. That's not great, but that is often how it goes. Speak up for yourself ... personal responsibility and all that.

So who exactly DOES one contact to make suggestions about changes to the adult structure? The only time I sent one in--to the then-chair of the adult committee--it was completely ignored, so I figured that was not the right person. No one in my state is involved in the adult committee as far as I know. Anyone have a good idea?

flo · #32 12-01-2008, 05:17 PM

The chair should be a good contact, but not always. I sent mine to Lexi as well as the pair chair. The regional reps are also on the adult site.
Good luck

manleywoman · #33 12-02-2008, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skaternum

I don't believe this is what flo was saying. I think she was trying to make the point that for those who DO use singles tests as criteria for pair competitions, they now have the option of "skating down" that people who use pairs tests as criteria do not have. Is that correct, flo?

If this were fixed, would that solve the problem?

Mrs Redboots · #34 12-02-2008, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flo

So, the problem is that the test that many of us took to compete (preliminary changed to juvenile, preliminary changed to pre-juv) are not the same pre juvenile/Juvenile tests as today, yet the cross-over levels are the same.

But this is surely a universal problem, not just applying to pairs? It is also global.... I know several skaters from many different countries whose test level requires that they compete at a skating level far above their current ability.

Even I have at least twice in my skating career been credited with a skating ability I didn't actually have when test structures/requirements changed, although luckily that hasn't impacted where I need to enter for competitions!

blue111moon · #35 12-02-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs Redboots

But this is surely a universal problem, not just applying to pairs? It is also global.... I know several skaters from many different countries whose test level requires that they compete at a skating level far above their current ability.

It happened to me in freestyle: the Silver test I took in 1992 wouldn't pass Bronze now and yet I'm required to skate in Silver because that's what my record says. Which is the reason I quit competing free skating.

flo · #36 12-02-2008, 01:46 PM

Manley - it would definitely help the pairs who took the old preliminary test and were changed to juvenile (and in gold) and those who are took the more recent preliminary test and this year are now pre-juvenile and in silver pairs. It's an odd situation as the test names changed as well as the elements. The main problem is that the test levels have really not been reviewed in a while. I can understand the reasoning behind pairs competing at their true test level, but to do that the levels really have to be equivalent.

Yes, Mrs. R, you're right. That's why it's so important to look back at history before making any of these changes. The adult program is not yet so old that there is not this history easily (relatively) available. And, not that it is unimportant in singles, but I think it's really important in pairs as a safety issue not to put anyone into a level where the expected or allowed elements are not at their test level.

For example, overheads are allowed in gold. With my current partner we're not even going to attempt overheads this season. We know our limits and have a great coach who has no problem telling us if he feels that anything we want to do, or attempt for that matter is not safe. Other pairs may not be so fortunate or have a sense of their limitations and feel really pressured to try elements above their level. It's getting more complicated with the mixed level teams. I've done pairs long enough to know that it takes two for the pair.

Mrs Redboots · #37 12-02-2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue111moon

It happened to me in freestyle: the Silver test I took in 1992 wouldn't pass Bronze now and yet I'm required to skate in Silver because that's what my record says. Which is the reason I quit competing free skating.

You were one of the people I was thinking of, plus two French skaters, and a couple of British ones.... and that's only the ones I know of. How many have given up altogether for just this reason?

Mrs Redboots · #38 12-02-2008, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flo

Other pairs may not be so fortunate or have a sense of their limitations and feel really pressured to try elements above their level. It's getting more complicated with the mixed level teams. I've done pairs long enough to know that it takes two for the pair.

I've only ever skated with one partner, in both dance and such pairs as we've done (only Interp pairs so far), and as I've always been the weaker skater I know absolutely what you mean! We do try to stretch ourselves very slightly each year, but you can't go too far.

At least the IJS does tend to reward simpler elements done well as well as complicated elements! At least, that's the theory.....

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