Spirals

[Zena]

Hi!
I'm a nevbie here!

I have been wondering about one thing for a very long time and never got a proper answer from any coach. When you do a spiral, are you supposed to have your "free leg" right behind yourself (as in arabesques in ballet) or is the leg supposed to go a little bit outwards in order to limit the rotation of the body. (If you are doing a spiral on your inner edge)

When i see photos of competitive skaters it seems as they don't keep their hips "square" as in ballet (Both hips on the same level and facing forward), while one of my coaches seems to think square hip is the right way of doing it the other coach doesn't seem to care :??

[Sho]

It is suppose to be right behind you, or else you might look like a dog peeing on a fire hydrant

[mikawendy]

Originally posted by Zena
Hi!
I'm a nevbie here!

I have been wondering about one thing for a very long time and never got a proper answer from any coach. When you do a spiral, are you supposed to have your "free leg" right behind yourself (as in arabesques in ballet) or is the leg supposed to go a little bit outwards in order to limit the rotation of the body. (If you are doing a spiral on your inner edge)

When i see photos of competitive skaters it seems as they don't keep their hips "square" as in ballet (Both hips on the same level and facing forward), while one of my coaches seems to think square hip is the right way of doing it the other coach doesn't seem to care :??

Welcome, Zena!

I've heard different things about this, too, and I haven't really gotten an answer either. In one edge class that I took, the instructor had us keep our free leg behind ourself (on the tracing made by the skating leg). He's pretty strict about that. I think that the way to get onto an inside edge in that situation is to use your shoulders to "steer."

As far as where the hips are--I've never heard anything from my instructors about hip placement. I think you would not want your free leg hip higher than your skating leg hip and your butt out to the free side--in ballet, this is called "secabesque" or "dog by fire hydrant" because of the resulting ugly look.

What happens with my hips is that they are on the same level (if I was wearing a belt, it would be parallel to the ice) but my free leg hip is farther back than my skating leg hip. My hips are in a similar "open" position when I do a BO edge in preparation for back mohawk into a waltz jump. This helps me get my leg higher and more turned out in the spiral. I don't know if this is correct technique or not.

My advice is to give each coach what they want when you're in lesson with them (but also ask them about their philosophy so you know WHY they have the preference that they do). It could be that there are equally valid reasons for both ways, and you can decide which you like better for whenever you're not working with one or the other. Or, it may be that one coach is "looking down the road"--having you skate the technique a certain way in preparation for more advanced skating or a MIF element that comes later. For example, I was taught back crossovers two different ways when I first started learning them. I stuck with the second way because it was more like the way that you're expected to do them in MIF. This also happened to me with learning 3 turns as well.

Welcome again, and post in the weekly lessons/practices thread to share what you're working on!
Cheers,
--mikawendy

[mikawendy]

Originally posted by Sho
It is suppose to be right behind you, or else you might look like a dog peeing on a fire hydrant

Tee hee, Sho, I think we were on the same wavelength--I was composing my reply right when you were

[Zena]

But you are allowed to "open the hips" and not keeping them square? As you can see here on the picture of Michelle Kwan (who is considered the queen of spirals among a lot of people) her hips don't face the direction she is going as they are opened and her whole upperbody is twisted (that's not only because she has a strong outside edge). Is that how it should look like? It looks a little bit like a "secabesque" to me.
http://heatherw.com/mk/pics/events/nat98/mk_sh_spiral.jpg


But this one of Vanessa Gusmeroli looks as she hasn't twisted her body in that awkvard way and her hips seems more ligned.
http://www.buzpateni.com/gusmeroli1.jpg

I'm not trying to rack Michelle down or something, but wouldn't the spiral done by Gusmeroli be more "correct" then? Or doesn't alignment matter that much in a spiral?
(I'm very new to doing figure skating, even though I have watched it a lot during the years, but you just don't think of some things when you sit there by the TV! :D)

Woho! I didn't realise that you had responded to my thread as well mikawendy when I wrote this reply! Thanks for the warm welcoming!

So the basic thing is that there are no definite rules about it?

[sk8taxi]

Yeah!!! Finally someone else has the same question I have had for 2 years!!

My daughter trained in Ballet 4 days a week for 4 years before she starting skating. One of the first things we noticed was the open hips on spirals.

FYI an open raised hip in Ballet is a big (in skate terms) CHEAT!

I have asked several of her skating coaches and one of the replies that possibly makes sense is the idea that when you are on edge you have to balance yourself by raising and lowering your hip.

Could that be the answer?

[DancinDiva]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who was wondering abot this! I've taken ballet for 18 years, and the way most skaters do their spirals always looks SO wrong to me. Not necesarily bad, just different, because their hips aren't level. It bugs me so bad, I want to scream "drop that hip!" like my ballet teacher always tells us.

[skaternum]

This is one of those things that is "close but no cigar" between ballet and skating. Those of us who have skated for any length of time have learned these lessons the hard way. The free leg when held behind you in skating is never "square" the way it is in ballet. The free hip is always slightly raised. Spirals are just one example of this. Another example is the landing position on jumps. A ballet teacher would whack you with a cane if they saw that in a ballet class! But on the ice, if you square off like you would in a ballet class, you get told you're over-crossing the free leg.

And it ain't just the free leg, either. You try turning out your skating hip on a spiral or landing position and you'll just go in teeny tiny circles. :)

[DancinDiva]

LOL skaternum, at the bit about turning out the skating hip on a jump landing or spiral. I just started skating in January, after all those years in ballet, and the hardest thing for me has been trying NOT to turn out. That, and in ballet there is so much emphasis on haveing a straight (or even slightly hyperextended) standing leg, where as in skating it seems that you just can't bend your knees too much! As my skating instructor put it, "We skating instructors send our skaters to ballet. It is much harder to go from ballet into skating." I have to agree with him.

[sk8taxi]

You have exactly the same issues my daughter had.
Most important.... Please try to forget Releve' on anything! Faceplant. ugh

[skateflo]

I just checked Nancy Kerrigan's book chapter on spirals:
"According to the USFSA Rulebook, your free leg should be higher than hip level in a spiral sequence, so as long as your knee is lifted to at least that point, you have many options."
"I finally discovered that I needed to lift my free hip more and pull my free leg back (inside spiral.) When I pull my foot back farther toward the outside of the circle, I skate on an inside edge and the foot becomes my rudder...You may need to lift your free side higher for an inside spiral, as it is very easy to drop into the circle with the upper body on the inside edge. By thinking of keeping the free side lifted, you will stay up and over the inside edge."
"The technique is basicaly the same for the outside spiral, except your skating foot skates an outside edge. Your free leg is over the circle, and your free side is slightly back so that your skate is on an outside edge."
"Remember what your free leg is doing: it should be stretched with a pointed toe. Many people talk about turning our from the hip, but because we all have different bodies, what works for one might not work for another. (I can't turn out from the hip, for example.) Think about turning out from wherever you can, whether it is turning out from the toe, the knee, or the hip--so that the leg is stretched with a pointed toe."

Hope this helps......

[Mrs Redboots]

Zena, welcome....

My coach makes me open my hips, on the grounds that I get my free leg higher that way (sadly, my spiral that feels so high and wonderful actually just looks as though I have a little extension at long last....!).
And a skating friend, who did ballet for years as a child, says that the two movements are quite different - she hates spirals as you have to lower your chest, which she finds scary.

[JDC1]

I've seen beautiful spirals done both ways. I find on my outside edges my leg feels the most comfortable directly behind me but on an inside edge it's a little more "out" but nothing resembling a dog peeing on a fire hydrant. :-) It depends on the skater and their extension, how loose or tight their hips are and how strong their hips and lower back glutes are. It's not the exact same as an arabesque but it's close enough that I never even got "taught" a spiral, I saw someone else doing it and taught myself. :-)

[icenut84]

Originally posted by skateflo
"Remember what your free leg is doing: it should be stretched with a pointed toe. Many people talk about turning our from the hip, but because we all have different bodies, what works for one might not work for another. (I can't turn out from the hip, for example.) Think about turning out from wherever you can, whether it is turning out from the toe, the knee, or the hip--so that the leg is stretched with a pointed toe."

Was that from Nancy's book? I thought that's what you're *not* meant to do! (Turning out from the ankle or knee). That's what I was told anyway. (I'm also very surprised she said she can't turn out from the hip - I thought she had quite open hips, since she could do an outside spread eagle).

[skateflo]

Yes, that is from Nancy's book (which is quite excellant) and I just looked at her photos in the spiral section. When I turned one of them sideways, you can see that she is not turned out from the hip, but rather looks like she is doing a split - her free leg thigh (front part) actually is facing the ice even though her whole leg is pulled up behind.

When I do spirals, I have to focus on pushing my free leg heel down as a way of getting my toe to point. When I first am lifting my leg, I do try to turn out from the hip as best I can but am 'hip impaired' so I look more like Nancy does. What ever works as long as the leg is well extended right through to your toes (feel like someone is pulling on your free leg blade like taffy) your chest and head are up looking to the upper bleachers so that you have that champagne curved glass look.

[NickiT]

My coach always tells me to keep my free leg behind me. I do tend to let it go to the side a bit but now I'm working on my parallel (camel) spin, I'm having to really work at stretching it back behind me!

Nicki