Beginner Scratch Spin help?

[Schmeck]

Ugh, this is going to be the death of me! I've been on USFSA Freskate 1 for almost the entire season. I've passed everything on this level (twice!) except the beginner scratch spin, out of back crossovers.

During the actual spin, I'm not getting over the skating foot most of the time, instead I'm straddling my weight between the skating foot and my free foot, which is extended out to the side. Don't ask me where my arms are :roll: since I can't think of them, I'm worried so much about my legs, LOL!

Anyone have any pointers, on-ice exercises, or sacrificial chants to the skate gods so that I can pass this last element and tackle freeskate 2 next season?

Schmeck

[Anita18]

My skating leg is never quite under me either, and that's probably why I travel so darned much on those! :x :x :x Most of the time, it's because of my entrance. When you step onto the FO edge, don't step too wide or else your weight will end up between your legs from the get go. Make sure all of your weight is over your skating side. Hold the FO edge as long as you can, [i:8d9f966160]then [/i:8d9f966160]bring your free side around as you turn. (Your "side" includes your shoulder and arm as well as your hip and leg) Keep your hips and shoulders square. Once I concentrated on doing that, my scratch spin improved tremendously. Oh, and make sure your back is up, LOL...I have a habit of leaning forward waaay too much on the entrance, like I'm going to do a camel spin. :P

My rink does the ISI levels instead of the USFSA levels - does the USFSA test require you to cross your feet? If so, hold your right leg up at a 1 o'clock position (for CCW. For CW, 11 o'clock). Once you feel balanced and centered, bring the free foot in toward your skating leg without lowering the thigh. Once you've done that, then you can bring everything in. My problem with this is that usually I'm traveling a little bit, and then crossing my feet exacerbates the traveling like you wouldn't believe. :roll:

I still need a lot of work in this too! Maybe we could start a support group, LOL!

Anita

[TashaKat]

[quote:0b82c30c65="Schmeck"]Ugh, this is going to be the death of me! I've been on USFSA Freskate 1 for almost the entire season. I've passed everything on this level (twice!) except the beginner scratch spin, out of back crossovers.

During the actual spin, I'm not getting over the skating foot most of the time, instead I'm straddling my weight between the skating foot and my free foot, which is extended out to the side. Don't ask me where my arms are :roll: since I can't think of them, I'm worried so much about my legs, LOL!

Anyone have any pointers, on-ice exercises, or sacrificial chants to the skate gods so that I can pass this last element and tackle freeskate 2 next season?

Schmeck[/quote:0b82c30c65]

Ok, here are MY mistakes ;) It's strange that you should post that today as I was having a conversation with one of my friends (who is also a coach) about my (previous) total inability to learn spins and how madame has totally turned it all around by correcting the mistakes that I was actually taught or that were never corrected ......

[b:0b82c30c65]The BI edge [/b:0b82c30c65]

I was doing a 'baby beginner' BI edge with the free leg bent, madame now has me doing the BI edge with a nicely stretched free leg

I was also TAUGHT to stop on my toe pick at the end of the edge!! Of course it now seems totally ridiculous that I was a) taught this and b) allowed to get away with it for so long ...... all the speed (LOL) that I'd built up on the back crosses was totally wasted by me coming to a full stop! She now has me stepping (think dance, she says) from a BI to a FO edge in one (kind of) smooth movement!

In addition to the above I was ALSO taught to PUSH my left (I spin CCW) back INTO the spin ...... this just served to twist my body, force the turn and ensure that I RARELY managed to centre any of my spins IF I actually managed to spin at all :roll: She now has me keep the left arm in front and keep it in front throughout the FO edge :) RESULT! When I manage this entry the spins are more often than not successful :D

[b:0b82c30c65]The FO edge[/b:0b82c30c65]

Well ...... mine was incidental, if you blinked you would miss it ..... and I wondered why I couldn't spin! I have now been taught to do a FULL HALF CIRCLE before going into the spin! Madame describes this as thinking of spiralling in until you HAVE to turn the three. This is probably the thing that I still haven't got ingrained and, generally, when a spin doesn't work it's because of the FO edge! Oh, and she is also quite adamant that I stretch the free leg (when aren't they?) on the entrance edge.

[b:0b82c30c65]The SPIN[/b:0b82c30c65]

I just used to snap up onto a straight leg, go onto my toepick ....... you get the idea! Following on from the 'spiralling in' bit madame gets me to think of spiralling in and stretching up through the skating leg rather than a quick snap (this is especially useful in the camel). I blame going onto the toe on my ballet training, incidentally ;)

I also was too quick to go into the spin from the 'open' position and would be rotating wildly on a straight leg wondering WHY I couldn't spin ...... she now has me thinking about keeping my knee soft and, instead of locking my knee (I have slightly hyperextended knees so the effect was even worse) she gets me to think of stretching up through the BACK of the leg (does that make sense?) .... I guess that is to stop me from trying to go 'en pointe' LOL.

Previously I used to have my leg pretty much out to the side, box splits fashion! Since bringing my leg slightly to the front it has made life much easier and I can 'balance' better, oh, and making sure that it's turned out and your free hip is slightly lifted pretty much ensures that you don't get the weight wrong (it's easier said than done sometimes though!).

Well, those are some of my 'problems' with my spins ....... they may not be your problems but you never know! I suspect from what you said that your FO edge is the main problem ....... if you don't finish off that edge you just won't be ready to make the turn and your weight will be off! It also could be that your free leg is turned in and/or your free leg is too far to the side ....... whatever, have a play with everyone's suggestions, some may help you, some won't, it's always worth a try :)

Good luck


L x

[color=darkblue:0b82c30c65][i:0b82c30c65](edited because I obviously can't spell 'everyone's'! :lol: [/i:0b82c30c65][/color:0b82c30c65]

[Debbie S]

Thanks Anita and TashaKat! I'm going to try your tips today at my lesson. I've had the worst problem w/learning the scratch spin. We've worked on it in Basic 8 (USFSA), which I'm finishing today, so of course, the scratch spin is looming in FS 1. I was practicing it this past weekend, and I managed to scrape the front of my spinning leg w/the skate blade of my free foot as I brought it in front of me. Ouch! (fortunately. there was no blood, just an ugly red mark)

My big problem is that I, too, end up on my toepick as I'm transferring from a BI to a FO edge. And I probably don't hold the FO edge long enough so I whirl around too quickly and lose my balance after one rotation. I also need to work on stretching out my free leg more when I'm on the BI so that I can pull it through and get more momentum, as my instructor tells me. I'm always struggling over how far back I should lean to avoid scraping the toepick at the end of the crossover. Ugghh!

I have a feeling spinning will always be my nemesis, which is odd, b/c I thought jumping would be my problem, but I'm enjoying that.

[flippet]

[quote:c189193633="Schmeck"] Don't ask me where my arms are :roll: since I can't think of them, I'm worried so much about my legs, LOL!

[/quote:c189193633]

Here's part of your problem, likely. (Firstly, it's probably the FO edge...that's my nemesis as well, since I can't for the life of me hold it as long as it *should* be held.) But what really helped me 'get' the spin was paying attention to the arms. Number one, like TashaKat said, DON'T heave your left arm around to throw you into the spin...you're guaranteed to travel wildly. Instead, imagine you're going to take that FO edge around a barrel, then spin on a dime on the other side of it. Push your left arm forward and around to the 'other side of the barrel', then LEAVE it there while your right side 'catches up'. With your right side, hold your leg and arm back during the FO edge, and as you hit the 'dime', they should come around TOGETHER. [b:c189193633]This is the most important part.[/b:c189193633] (For me, anyway, this is what made things click.) Behave as if your right wrist and ankle are tied together with a string---neither one can come around ahead of the other.

Once you've hit the 'dime' and brought your arm and leg around, your initial spinning position should be over your left hip, with your arms at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, and your right leg directly under your right arm. Only when you have this position centered (more or less...you'll begin to get the 'feeling' of it through practice) should you begin to bring the arms and leg in. Like Tasha said, ideally your free hip should be turned out, and if so, it's an easy thing to bend the knee to bring the foot in(neatly avoiding your shin! ;) ), leaving the thigh right where it is.

There's SO much to remember in a spin, that it really does take tons of time and practice to get it, unless you're naturally gifted in this area. I've been working on spinning for 3 years, and only recently have got to the point where they're generally centered, more or less, and crossing the foot over doesn't take focused thought. It's a great feeling to finally be able to spin! :D

(If you forget all else, just think about bringing the right arm and leg around *together*. It's amazing how much that one thing helps. :) )

[Elsy2]

I'm thinking you should pay attention to what your arms are doing. If you are like me, my right freeleg follows right along with my left arm coming around. I have to concentrate on that right shoulder and arm being higher than I think it needs to be in order for my arms and shoulders to be level. Bringing that right arm around directly relates to getting my freeleg in front and my free hip not dropping. Have somebody watch you, paying attention to your arms and shoulders. They can tell you if they are level or not.

(Geez, Flippet, we sort of said the same thing....again!)

But, as pointed out by many above, my most common mistake is rushing the 3-turn.

[Schmeck]

Thanks everyone, for some really great advice! I'm printing this thread to tuck into my skate bag. Hopefully I'll be able to find some ice time to practice before my last lesson this Sunday...

Schmeck

[TashaKat]

[quote:3fb43a0bca="Debbie S"]My big problem is that I, too, end up on my toepick as I'm transferring from a BI to a FO edge. And I probably don't hold the FO edge long enough so I whirl around too quickly and lose my balance after one rotation.[/quote:3fb43a0bca]

It's not about leaning back so much as bending your knees, practise this bit in isolation ........ eg for CCW: RBI onto a LFO .... my coach doesn't let me swing/move/gracefully arrange my left arm back AT ALL, she makes me keep it in front of me at all times ...... it's worked for me! At one point she had me with a 50p coin on the back of my hand ..... I had to do the RBI-LFO into the spin without it falling off, try it and see how much you move your arms around!!! I haven't tried that for a while, I seriously doubt whether I'd be able to keep it on there now. She also tells me that I put far too much effort into it, that with the correct entrance the spin should just 'happen' ........ she's right, when I am more relaxed and 'soft' on the entrance the spin is SOOOO much better!

L x

[Debbie S]

You're right, TashaKat - I too have a problem with trying too hard on something. I think that's why my spins are better at the beginning of practice, where I'm in a relaxed, warm-up mode. The more I try them, the worse they seem to get, and I think it's b/c of the tendency to want to work harder if something's not quite right. I found that jumps are the same way (the relatively simple ones that I'm working on right now, anyway). I definitely need to focus on just staying on my edges, and letting the spin happen when I'm centered and balanced., as opposed to using my arms to get me going. Got to remember that for this afternoon!

[Debbie S]

You're right, TashaKat - I too have a problem with trying too hard on something. I think that's why my spins are better at the beginning of practice, where I'm in a relaxed, warm-up mode. The more I try them, the worse they seem to get, and I think it's b/c of the tendency to want to work harder if something's not quite right. I found that jumps are the same way (the relatively simple ones that I'm working on right now, anyway). I definitely need to focus on just staying on my edges, and letting the spin happen when I'm centered and balanced., as opposed to using my arms to get me going. Got to remember that for this afternoon!

[Debbie S]

Ooops! Sorry about the double post!

[KJD]

It took me forever to learn how to spin properly and I'm not sure I would even qualify as that now really. I learned all the single jumps before I could do a scratch spin, so I had a lot of catching up to do. My coach made me to spins on the line for like 3 months in order to get the feeling of holding that FO edge long enough and bringing it around, which was my most serious problem. Even now while I'm working on my Gold test, I still lose spins, usually the camel because I don't hold that edge and if its a really bad day, we go back to the line to reinforce where it went wrong.

Kate

[Chico]

If done correctly no speed is needed to do a great spin. Technique is the tool not speed. My old coach could do incredible spins from a stand stilll. Why? Her technique was perfect. Like lynne mentioned a half rev is needed before the 3 turn. My coach calls this threading the needle. Palms up. Check those shoulders. Center over the skating leg, and do at least 3 revs beofre pulling in. Keep your shoulders down. Tummy in and hips rolled under. Squeeze in as you bring your free hip over. SQUEEZE and think about the ball of your skating foot. Jumps can be done with mistakes, spins fall apart with mistakes. Spinning takes tons of practice. Worry about the steps, and build your spin as you go.

Chico

[Debbie S]

Well, I did my best to incorporate everyone's tips into my spinning yesterday, and lo and behold, it's coming along! I got a couple of revolutions w/ my leg crossed, albeit not very tightly, but I'm learning. I only whacked my spinning leg once, and it doesn't appear to have broken skin (one red scrape mark is enough!). My instructor says I'm making good progress. We even learned a toe loop yesterday to go along w/our half flip and waltz jumps.

While she was watching me jump, my instructor noted that I seem to be uncomfortable bending and after a short discussion, she deduced that I still needed to break in my skates more - work on bending. She's breaking in new Klingbeils so we could commiserate. I'm happy to report, though, that my arch/width problems have been resolved w/the help of some tennis balls. :)

[lisabelle]

i whack my skating leg pulling in all the time!!! you should see the scars and bruises i have on my shin from wonky scratch spins. its good to know i'm not the only one who does this :)

but to try and avoid this, make sure that when you bring the free leg around it's slightly turned out. that makes it easier to pull in right (less resistance since it automatically will just cross) and then your blade is not aimed at your shin :) also it helps me to think of getting my ankle to my knee, and pulling UP as well as in. :) good luck with it.

[kayskate]

TashaKat wrote: [quote:ce44df7815]I was also TAUGHT to stop on my toe pick at the end of the edge!! Of course it now seems totally ridiculous that I was a) taught this and b) allowed to get away with it for so long ....[/quote:ce44df7815]

Sounds like your coach was trying to teach you to hook your spin. Maybe the instructor did not explain or demo it well. Hooking is a fairly advanced technique and may not have been req'd in a beginning lesson. However, hooking, done correctly, yields very fast centered spins.

Kay

[TashaKat]

[quote:71ac621c7f="kayskate"]TashaKat wrote: [quote:71ac621c7f]I was also TAUGHT to stop on my toe pick at the end of the edge!! Of course it now seems totally ridiculous that I was a) taught this and b) allowed to get away with it for so long ....[/quote:71ac621c7f]

Sounds like your coach was trying to teach you to hook your spin. Maybe the instructor did not explain or demo it well. Hooking is a fairly advanced technique and may not have been req'd in a beginning lesson. However, hooking, done correctly, yields very fast centered spins.

Kay[/quote:71ac621c7f]

To be honest, I don't think that this was the case, I was taught to come to a complete stop ie lose ALL momentum ... I've since been taught the 'hook' on a spinning camp that we had and it a different technique to the one that I was shown. I was actually taught to spin like this RIGHT from the beginning and have been told since by a coach that it is a technique that is employed by coaches at a certain rink (he could tell where I'd first had lessons) though nobody is entirely sure why!!

[Anita18]

I can't spin this week! :x :x :x I go right on the toepick at the end of the FO edge, and I understand that spins can be hooked, but it's causing me to fall too much to the inside and screw up my balance. I'm also not sure if my FO edge is deep enough - should it be a really deep edge, or just a really long shallow-ish one? If I feel myself falling too much to the inside of the circle, I don't force a spin out of it - I usually end up falling on my hip instead. :roll: Should I try to force a spin out of a really deep edge?

Also, I have a tendency to lean forward on the initiating three-turn (which exacerbates the toepick dragging, I'm sure... :roll: ) but if I lean back, I feel so off-balance, I fall right out of the spin. Should I just practice some more to get the different feeling, or is there something I'm missing?

All this, and not to mention my skates were just sharpened last week, and I'm still trying to find my balance spot....Only my back cross-strokes have improved so far, LOL...(Well, at least it's something... :roll: )

Anita

[Elsy2]

Anita,
It sort of sounds like you are straightening your skating leg too early or too much at the end of your left forward outside edge and not settling back down, otherwise you wouldn't go up on the toepick and stay there. Remember that a 3 turn has a down/up/down motion to it. Same thing with any scratching on the entry...more kneebend gets rid of the scratching. I think it's OK to lean forward into the 3 turn, but if you're leaning with no kneebend it's going to scratch like crazy. More kneebend should give you the deeper edge too.

Maybe you should try a different entry, like a right forward inside 3, to a left forward outside 3. Some people have more success with this entry.

[Schmeck]

Got to thank you all again for your assistance, since I passed Freeskate 1 tonight, yippee! And I even have my own "magic cure" for my spin woes - it was all in the toes, believe it or not! We had a substitute instructor, and she mentioned that our free foot toes should be pressing down inside of the skate. Well, I tried it, and it worked! I did three passing spins in a row (and I was a bit hungover from Hubby's high school reunion dinner the night before, even! 8O ) and got my badge.

Schmeck, one happy skater right now, that's for sure!

[Elsy2]

Way to go! Congratulations!