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oz01
06-13-2003, 02:16 PM
My daughter started having private lesson a year ago when she was 3 and half years old. Each week she has one private lesson, one group less and sometimes a stroking lesson. Because of her age, she doesn't progress as fast as some older kids at the rink. SHe just passed gamma test two weeks ago. I am happy with that, and I don't want to push her too much when she is so young. But her coach is not happy "If she needs to be a good skater, she needs at least two or three private lessons a week". I said no twice to her. Now she is losing her patience. She thinks my daughter just skates for fun and she hasn't taught my daughter anything new in the last two months. In the beginning she treated my daughter as an Olympic hopeful and now she thinks my daughter can't even do stroking right. During her lesson, she stops frequently to talk to her more serious skaters. If my daughter didn't love her that much, I would have talked to other coach a long time ago.

Parents, I need your help. Has similar things ever happened to you and your child? What should I do? Do you think two or three private lessons will help a 4 and half year old (I only have time to bring her to the rink to pratice once a week)? How do you deal with a very negative coach?
Thanks!

backspin
06-13-2003, 02:40 PM
Okay, speaking as a coach here:

Your daughter does NOT need more private lessons each week! At that age, if parents are looking for faster progress, I always recommend either more practice time (if the child is focused enough to go out & work on their own), or more group classes, which at that age works well because of the peer involvement--they're more willing to do something over & over if everyone is doing it too....

If she were far ahead of everyone in her class & bored; or if she was getting several hours of practice time in each week, I could see the need for more privates.....otherwise you're just paying the coach to supervise her practicing! Better to start to teach your daughter "how" to practice--develop a routine for her, starting with stroking, maybe crossovers next, backwards edges next, etc., so she learns how to go out & work on her own.

If your coach isn't willing to work with you on your terms, and if you're happy with the progress rate as it is, then I'd say it's time for a new coach. I understand your daughter loves her, but you can explain that she'll still be friends with the old coach, but there will be a new friend in the new coach. Or you could explain that it's just like when she gets a new teacher each school year.

arena_gal
06-13-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by oz01
[B How do you deal with a very negative coach?
[/B]

* F I R E * T H E * C O A C H *


I think you know the answer already.

Flatfoote
06-13-2003, 05:04 PM
I hope you don't mind an outsider's point of view. Since I know nothing about the world of coaching, or the insider's world of skating (I'm just a fan)....

Anyway, from this outsider's POV....Of COURSE she wants your daughter to take more private lesssons, she earns more money that way. And if your daughter IS an Olympic hopeful, she (the coach) might be drooling over the idea of padding her resume to say she's coached an Olympian.

If she's concerned or annoyed with your daughter "having fun" skating, then I say can her NOW. At four and a half, if your daughter isn't having fun, then she shouldn't be skating.

CanAmSk8ter
06-13-2003, 05:10 PM
There is no way a four-year-old needs private lessons more than once a week, especially if she takes group lessons too. Chances are the coach just wants the extra income. Don't let her talk you into it. Personally, I don't think I would have my skater continue with this coach, especially one so young.

A lot of coaches are experienced and good at working with preschoolers, and a lot of coaches are experienced and good at working with the Beta-low freestyle levels. However, because not many preschoolers skate at anything above the Tot levels, most coaches don't have much of any experience working with preschoolers on more advanced skills. It sounds like maybe this coach is used to working with slightly older skaters and is frustrated that your child doesn't progress at the same rate. If so, she needs to lower her expectations. Gamma and Delta are hard levels for the eight- and nine-year-olds to get through. Mohawks and edges in particular take a lot of motor skill that, frankly, most preschoolers don't have yet. It's going to be slow going with your daughter compared to some of the kids at her level, most of whom I would assume are considerably older.

Her level, while advanced for her age, is still basic. I would watch the classes of kids her age when she takes her group lessons. See who seems to work well with the preschoolers, and think about whether that person might be a better match for your daughter.

Elsy2
06-13-2003, 06:51 PM
I don't think your daughter needs more privates, and I would be upset that she doesn't get her coach's full attention during the private lesson she does have. That's a pretty strong signal that the coach has lost interest. I didn't get any pressure to do privates until my daughter started jumping really. I kept her in group lessons until she was past basic skills. I do think privates can be beneficial, however, so I say find someone else for her weekly private, even if it's a junior coach who just loves teaching kids.

dbny
06-13-2003, 09:00 PM
I have been teaching a "Mommy & Me" class for about a month now, and have taught tot group lessons for over a year. I am also the mother of two skaters (teenagers who no longer skate, but will most likely come back to it), so my perspective is as a skater, a coach and a mother.

Originally posted by oz01
But her coach is not happy "If she needs to be a good skater, she needs at least two or three private lessons a week". I said no twice to her. Now she is losing her patience. She thinks my daughter just skates for fun and she hasn't taught my daughter anything new in the last two months.

So, for two months, you have been paying her for nothing! There is nothing wrong with a tot skating for fun, in fact, that's pretty much the only reason any of them do skate. In the "Mommy & Me" class, I know the 4 yr olds are ready to play a new game when one asks me "when is this over?"
Originally posted by oz01
In the beginning she treated my daughter as an Olympic hopeful and now she thinks my daughter can't even do stroking right.

While some kids are very obviously talented and it is visible early, it's ridiculous to make predictions about their competitive careers. I've seen this before, and it's always been from coaches who see the parents as a cash cow.

Originally posted by oz01
During her lesson, she stops frequently to talk to her more serious skaters.
That's just plain unethical and disrespectful.

Originally posted by oz01
If my daughter didn't love her that much, I would have talked to other coach a long time ago.
It's entirely possible that your daughter is already not loving her quite so much, as she too can plainly see what her coach is doing and must feel the difference in her attitude.

Originally posted by oz01
Do you think two or three private lessons will help a 4 and half year old (I only have time to bring her to the rink to pratice once a week)? How do you deal with a very negative coach?


I agree with the other posters that your daughter does not need more private lessons per week.

Something very important to remember is that when you do decide to leave this coach, you must inform her of it before approaching another coach.

blades
06-13-2003, 09:41 PM
8-)

time for a new coach with a new attitude!!!

one lesson a week is more than enough at that age...

best of luck to ya!!!

Sk8Bunny
06-13-2003, 10:44 PM
If your coach isn't willing to work with you on your terms, and if you're happy with the progress rate as it is, then I'd say it's time for a new coach. I understand your daughter loves her, but you can explain that she'll still be friends with the old coach, but there will be a new friend in the new coach. Or you could explain that it's just like when she gets a new teacher each school year.

I agree with backspin, I had a somewhat similar situtation in means that I was ready to change coaches(i really needed to, my coach then was a basic skills coach, and i was way past that), but i kept the change in limbo for awhile cause she was such a wonderful friend and we always had the best times during lessons-many laughs. But finally I switched to the head coach at my rink and although it was tough, i was really glad i fired my old coach. Im 15, so my parents, while they did have input of course, let the decision ultimately be mine about switching coaches. I am still friends with my old coach, my new caoch told me wise wisdom to not 'break bridges' with my old coach. We thanked her for her teaching, but then told her we felt we had to move on. Of course, its not the same as it was be4, we arent great friends anymore, which is something i sometimes really miss, but we get along still and are ok friends. I sometimes miss her being my good friend/coach, but i never regret my decision to switch. So my point is, it sounds like u arent getting what your paying for, and if ur not happy, then the relationship(coach/parent) isnt a healthy one. Your daughter will probably befriend a new coach, and, if u leave on good terms with the her current coach, the coach and your daughter will hopefully still get along and be buddies. If the current coach doesnt want any relationship with your daughter if she isnt her student, then well, that is the coaches loss, and your daugther deserves a better 'friend' and coach. I would highly recommend a new coach.

BABYSKATES
06-14-2003, 01:10 AM
I had a baby skater (she's still my baby now but she was 4 1/2 then) who really loved skating and wanted to do well. She didn't really need a coach but loved the idea of having one so I hired a teacher to review class skills for 15 minutes before class. The teacher and I had a clear understanding that at 4 1/2 skating was just for fun. My daughter had skating in her heart so she did progress but the goal at that time was to have a good time. That teacher was also a mom and had a child just 1 year older than mine. My daughter and her teacher played, laughed, and had a good time nonstop for 15 minutes each Saturday morning. In playing, my daughter learned to skate fast, how to stop, how to skate backwards, etc. That's all she needed. Anything more would have been totally wasted on her and unbearably tedious for her teacher.

I agree with all of the other posters. No 4 year old needs 3 lessons a week. Cute as they are, 4 year olds do not make the best students so a coach has to be mature enough to understand where a 4 year old is developmentally. This is a wonderful time and your baby is still a baby. All too soon, she will grow up and decisions can be made then about how many lessons are appropriate for her or if she even wants them at all.

Skatewind
06-14-2003, 08:09 AM
3-1/2 yr old children do not need private lessons. Did you know that only ten years ago at many rinks children had to be 5-1/2 or 6 in order to sign up for group lessons?

Most principled coaches who have a good understanding of child development wouldn't even offer to teach your daughter at her age, much less insist on multiple private lessons each week. I can see where a coach might make an exception in a case where they have a special relationship with the child or the child has made dramatic progress through group lessons.

I would strongly encourage checking the coach's credentials & rethinking why either of you think your daughter needs private lessons at all at this time. Any other reason than one similar to what BABYSKATES has suggested may not be suitable for a young child of this age. It should be fun, not serious training at this age.

mary
06-14-2003, 01:56 PM
My daughter's coach:

Talks on her cell phone during private lessons

Talks to other coaches and skaters during private lessons

Tells her to go do a jump or something and then turns her head to someone else

Puts together her programs late so she's tense and nervous at competitions

Puts her cell phone to her ear in passing so I can't get her attention

Has her answering machine at home screen her calls.

Wonders why her higher level skaters don't compete anymore because they get nervous at competitions and place low

Wonders why my daugher is her only competetive student now

Wonders why I'm giving more private lessons to another coach then her

Is she clueless or what

dbny
06-14-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by mary

Wonders why my daugher is her only competetive student now


Why is your daughter still her student at all? I would not put up with that for one minute. Our coach (mine, daughter's, husbands - same coach) always give her current student her complete attention. If an interruption is absolutely necessary (as in another student approaching to pay for lesson before leaving) she keeps it short, apologizes, and extends the lesson if she feels the break went on too long. Very occasionally, she will happen to notice one of her students not in the current lesson doing something nicely, and will call out a compliment if they are nearby. That's it. I am going to miss her so much (we're moving), and my next coach will have to meet very high standards of both technical knowledge and conduct.

land64shark
06-14-2003, 04:08 PM
While I'm in agreement that private lessons for the really young are not really necessary for basic skating progress, what about for "competition"? That's how I got my 4 yr old started. Her 7 yr old sister was going to be traveling across the state for the ISI Winter Classic and I figured that I wanted to make the most of it. I wanted them to do a family spotlight and my little one then also needed a pre-alpha "technical". You have to have private lesson(s) to work on programs...end of story. Then once we started, there was always another ISI competition coming up and I wanted to get my use out of the elaborate props and costumes I had made.

That child lost interest in skating after a couple of years and quit. Her older sister is now USFSA juvenile and ISI will never be revisited. Now I have a 5 1/2 yr old that has been wanting to skate for some time. I have been putting it off for as long as I can because I realize now that whether she starts skating at 3 yrs old or 6, she'll still be in relatively the same place by the time she's 12, but I can save the 3 years of money and hassles.

My youngest one will start group lessons next month. However I am adament that she will be in group lessons ONLY for a very long time. My oldest didn't start with a private coach until she had passed ISI Alpha. (My little one will be doing USFSA Basic skills.) I'm hoping to avoid the competition thing with her for quite some time, but when I do get sucked into it, she'll need private lessons.

Dolly
06-14-2003, 06:57 PM
I've never known of a skater in private lessons at 3 or 4 years old - not in my area anyway. I have seen them though in the pre-school sessions which are just 30 minutes. Most of them are sitting on the ice or walking on the blades. My daughter started canskate (group lessons) at 5 and the sessions were 40 minutes, only once a week. There was no jumping except for bunny hops. She only skated the 10 weeks after Christmas from age 5-7 and by the time she was 7 1/2, she had finished all the levels in canskate from pre-beginner through Novice 1, 2, 3 (I think it was called back then) and moved to a private coach into the Junior program. She was ready then for more serious skating, working on her own most of the session which consisted of 45 minute freeskate and 30 minute dance/skils. She skated 3 times a week and I was told she needed 5 private lessons. Another thing, she never skated in summer until she was 9 and it was only for one freeskate during the month of August. By the time she was 10 she was woking on double axel and had passed 21 tests altogether in freeskate, dance and skills (all on the first try). So, it didn't hurt her at all not to have a lot of private lessons at a young age. Most competitive skates around age 10 are working on double axel whether they start at 4 or 7, from what I've seen.

Group lessons would be the only way for me for a 4 year old, where it is fun and they are learning too. They look forward to going but after the 40 minute session, they are ready to leave, have a little snack and usually fall asleep on the drive home. (Those were the days!) I would not let a coach push me or my little one for extra lessons. Remember the parent is the boss and the child's best interest must come first. I wouldn't listen to coaches, skater development people or other parents who bring up the olympic champion stuff either. I heard a lot of that too but never took it seriously. It takes a lot from a person to reach that kind of success and when we're talking about a child, who knows what they will want in the future. I would take every session (summer, fall, winter and spring) and just work with that timeframe - no expectations for the future. (But that's me anyway - I only live for the day!!)

With regard to your coach, I would explain that you are only willing to pay for one private lesson until she's a little older. If she continues to ignore your skater, I think she will get bored and may want to get off the ice, etc. Then the fun may go out of it for her. IMO, a young coach who still likes to play games while teaching in groups is usually good for a beginner. Keep the fun in it as long as possible.

tazsk8s
06-14-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by mary
My daughter's coach:

Wonders why my daugher is her only competetive student now

Is she clueless or what

I think you answered your own question! No way should you have to put up with any of that. I suppose my daughter and I have been extremely fortunate to have always had coaches who have behaved professionally and communicated well. I can guarantee that if we'd noticed a pattern of anything *else*, it wouldn't have lasted long because we would have made a change, pronto.

tazsk8s
06-14-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by oz01
Now she is losing her patience. She thinks my daughter just skates for fun and she hasn't taught my daughter anything new in the last two months.

At four, they *should* be skating just for fun. It worries me to see a coach thinking otherwise or trying to push that many additional lessons on a child that young or pushing "Olympic hopeful" already.

My advice, get away from this coach. Run, don't walk.

kayskate
06-15-2003, 05:45 AM
Sounds like you have seen the coach's true colors. She is pressuring you for more income. When you did not bow to her suggestions, she changed her attitude. She no longer is interested in your child's skating. Dump her. Dump her now. There are plenty of good coaches out there who will give you and your child what you want. It is your $, don't feel uncomfortable buying what you want with it.

Kay

batikat
06-15-2003, 05:50 AM
OK - just my opinion but I would agree with everyone who says you are wasting time and money on extra private lessons for very young children. From what I have seen the advantage to starting young is that the kids are comfortable in skates and are not afraid of the ice or falling etc. This comes from having a good time and playing and generally finding out the ice is a fun place to be. However due to the limitations on concentration and motor skills at that young an age, it does take them an awful lot longer to learn any proper skills, moves etc than an older child would. It seems to me that about the age of 6 is when they can start to benefit a bit more from proper lessons and this is when their skills can begin to take off. However those children who start skating later in life at 6 or 8 or even 10 are already more capable of taking instruction, understanding their bodies and therefore their progress is much quicker. They are also better able to spend time alone practising, to consolidate those skills learnt in lessons. At the age of 10 there doesn't seem to be much difference between those who started at 3 or 4 and those who started at 6.

I would say save your money so that if in a few years your child really wants to go for it in skating you have the money then, to pay for the extra lessons and practice time she will need.

I know world class athletes seem to be getting younger and younger but I can't see it is very healthy to be pushed into something at such a young age for either mind or body, so I too would say find another coach better suited to teaching youngsters.

For comparison, Chris Dean stepped on ice for the first time at age 12 (but didn't take lessons straight away) and my coach (former Olympian ice dancer) started at 10.

icenut84
06-15-2003, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by batikat
For comparison, Chris Dean stepped on ice for the first time at age 12 (but didn't take lessons straight away) and my coach (former Olympian ice dancer) started at 10.

Actually, Chris Dean was 10, but didn't have any lessons for about a year. Also, wasn't Johnny Weir about 12 when he started?

I agree - get a new coach. Pronto.

dooobedooo
06-15-2003, 08:06 AM
Regarding age to start skating: although it does help for competitive success to start at around 5 or 6 years old, I personally know several coaches who started much older than this, and they seem to be better coaches because of it. Because they had to learn with a more adult brain (reasoning rather than copying; fearful not fearless) they are all brilliant at explaining technique, generally better that those who learned at a very early age. Some examples ...

One started at 13, became World Professional Ice Dance champion, and a very successful coach.
One started at 13, and has taught international competitors.
Another started at 18, worked all night in a factory in order to skate all day, became a qualified master coach and took many students to inter-gold level.

And yes, I agree with everybody else about the coach - find someone for your youngster who really enjoys teaching young children, makes it fun, and insists on giving them good basic technique too. I have seen several coaches' children coming on the ice regularly from two or three years of age but it still takes them many months before they can even glide or go backwards, and probably a couple of years before they can do a very basic spin (badly).

Skatewind
06-16-2003, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by mary
Is she clueless or what
She may be clueless, but it sounds like you still agree to pay for inadequate services.

"Has her answering machine at home screen her calls." I don't blame any coach or club person for doing this. A lot of parents think every 30 minute lesson includes a 2 hr off ice follow up discussion, or that a club membership includes unlimited consultation time or 24 hr all night service. A lot of coaches & club people I know have a set time each day when they call back parents. People in these positions should have the opportunity to organize their time & not have it wasted.

jazzpants
06-16-2003, 03:07 PM
Ummm... I'd run.... RUN FORREST RUN... far away from this coach! It's not the age thing. It's the ATTITUDE thing that scares me!!! :(

roogu
06-16-2003, 03:32 PM
Like the others that have replied, I agree totally that this coach needs to be fired!!

I think that one thing parents need to realize when making the decision to change or fire coaches is that in the end, you're the employer. You're paying for a service ... a service the coach should be supplying to your satisfaction. You have every right to discontinue this service at any time you deem necessery, ESPECIALLY when you're not happy with the coach's attitude or means of coaching. Don't be intimidated, you have the right.

I've been skating for 13 years and no way, no how should a 4 year old be having more than one private a week. First of all, I mean, this kid is 4 and should be having fun, like you said. Second of all, any child at 4 years old isn't going to retain all that is taught in MORE than one lesson a week, after the week is over.

If this coach certainly feels that your daughter has huge potential, then this coach is not encoraging and nuturing that talent properly. Now coaches have the right to bring up the idea of more lessons or other ways to increase training, but that is as far as it goes .... to suggest. If the parent or skater doesn't feel it's right of necessary, the coach should drop the matter and bring it back perhaps when the skater is a few years older. Sounds to me like this coach has HORRIFIC Ethics.

Dolly
06-16-2003, 04:38 PM
Here is a link to the Skate Canada site. There's a section called Code of Ethics, Section 5.0 Obligation to the Skater and Parent, which is quite interesting.

http://www.skatecanada.ca/english/programs/coaching/libraryarchives.html

When my daughter started out there was no information available to me. This web site has lots of info. tucked away in it. It's very informative and can be very helpful to parents of skaters. It's too bad it's not in booklet form and distributed to all parents of skaters.

Hope this helps you with your decisions for your skater.

triplejumps
06-16-2003, 08:45 PM
It's all about the money.

roogu
06-16-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Dolly
Here is a link to the Skate Canada site. There's a section called Code of Ethics, Section 5.0 Obligation to the Skater and Parent, which is quite interesting.

http://www.skatecanada.ca/english/programs/coaching/libraryarchives.html

When my daughter started out there was no information available to me. This web site has lots of info. tucked away in it. It's very informative and can be very helpful to parents of skaters. It's too bad it's not in booklet form and distributed to all parents of skaters.

Hope this helps you with your decisions for your skater.

Hey Dolly,

LOL you know what's funny is that you bring up an awesome point ....... technically coaches are supposed to provide their skater's parents with a copy of the code of ethics at the beginning of any partnership. It was a majorly stressed point at the Level 1 course.

oz01
06-17-2003, 09:13 AM
Thank you all so much! I used to blame myself so much when the coach said my daughter didn't practice enough between lessons. I even stoped my group lesson so that I can have more time to practice with my daughter. But my daughter is "learning some bad skating " according the coach. After reading all of your posts, I think I have to talk to her as soon as possbile, although I am still wondering how I should start the conversation.

Thanks again! You are right, I shouldn't pay her when I am so unhappy.

Michigansk8er
06-17-2003, 11:59 AM
I can't imagine any coach with 1/2 a brain thinking a 4 1/2 year old needs that much private lesson time. That's a sure way to burnout at a young age, and cause unnecessary injuries at a young age. We have a little girl where I skate that is only now on the ice 5 days a week, and it was because she asked. She is talented and landing 2/lutzes at 8.......but, her parents have always made sure she had plenty of play time with her friends and everything hasn't been about skating. They want to make sure there is balance. In addition, I've been on the ice with kids that young and they just can't focus for an entire session. Out of lesson they don't really have a concept of practicing on their own yet. As for liking the coach, we have a group that really like their coach. Sad thing is, they've all stayed with the same coach and never progressed. A bad decision based on the kids liking her. Now they are all to old to make it to regionals in anything but open categories (all are preliminary and below and now in their teens), so don't make liking the coach a basis for your decision. Good luck. It's very hard to part with a coach. I know, I've been there.

roogu
06-17-2003, 12:53 PM
I think another great point is that .... children's bones don't fully mature/dense up until they are at least the age of 14 ......... so they're bodies are really suceptible to damage at ages younger than that ..... I think 9 and 10 year olds doing clean double lutzes with proer technique is ok ........ but my point is that if bones don't harden in struture till 14 years old ... .what are they like in a 4 year old?!?! Then I think the common sense for multiple private lessons come in ....... this coach obviously has none.

Remember that there are a billion coaches out there. And liking the coach is totally fine, and great for a working relationship, but don['t let it get to the point where you're left feeling obligated to stay because the coach will take advantage of that. That's what my first coach did and I ended up staying with her when I shouldn't have and wasted a good year or two .... that's one or two years that I could have spent more in the novice comp. ranks.

What's the worst the coach can do? Not talk to you afterwards? I'd look at that as a blessing, hehehe. I have a good saying for the sport ... for every person you meet in the sport that you like/look up to/ or are friends with ... there are ten more out there that won't like you for one thing or another. So just weed out the bad and let the good flourish :)

dbny
06-17-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by oz01
After reading all of your posts, I think I have to talk to her as soon as possbile, although I am still wondering how I should start the conversation.

You might start by telling her that your daughter really does just skate for fun and has no competitive dreams at her age, so you think a coach with a less serious approach would be better for her now. You could add that if your daughter does decide to become competitive in the future, you would certainly consider returning. It's best to leave with as few hard feelings as possible as the skating world can be very small and an angry coach can make things very hard for you.

sk8rT
06-19-2003, 08:15 PM
In skating it is your time and your money---that's what you should be concerned with--just like you outgrow shoes you can outgrow coaches and partners---so move one before it's too late

GoldieMedal
06-21-2003, 06:30 AM
Get a copy of the Coaches Code of Ethics..actually all coaches should give one out to all parents. Get a copy, if you registered with Skate Canada, it is on there site. This coach is abusing the code.

WeBeEducated
06-21-2003, 02:33 PM
I dont care if this is the most "talented" child skater on earth, at age 4 or 5 ONE lesson a week is enough.
For a coach to suggest 3 lessons a week is irresponsible and transparently greedy.

jhuffman
06-22-2003, 12:36 PM
You should also consider if any coach is a member of the PSA. Members are held to a code of ethics similar to the Canadian Professionals. Psa coaches should also show a interest in continued education, attending conferences and achieving ratings.
Many coaches that act in the way your current coach is behaving often downplay the importance of the PSA as a organization, and often feel that they know plenty about the sport.
Robin Wagner (sarah hughes coach) was the keynote speaker at this years PSA international conference and she made some very important points on coach/student relationships. Many master rated and olympic coaches still learn from each other at these conferences.
Life's too short for your child not to enjoy each time on the ice.
If they love it they will stick to it.:)