Another liability issue

[Aussie Willy]

Today I got to attend a public session (first time in ages I actually got some time to do it). There was a school group when I arrived but they left by 1.30pm. During this time I watched a group of guys (about 5) come in with their hockey sticks, etc and thought it was pretty strange. However once the school group had gone and there were about 10 public skaters left on the ice (not including the hockey guys) they hockey guys kitted up, put witches hats to section off a third of the rink and proceded to hit pucks around and practise. This was done with the permission of the rink.

Now my problem is this. IT IS A PUBLIC SESSION! It is not a hockey session. I assume these guys would have hockey practise sessions that they can do this kind of thing in. I found once they started I did not feel safe because a stray puck could go anywhere. I was talking to some other people who were there for the first time and they thought the same as I did. In fact a couple of them even went up to the office and said something and basically got told the guys were allowed to do this. When I left about half an hour later I said to the rink manger that I was leaving because I did not feel safe, even though the rink had given them permission.

Now this rink lost it's public liability insurance last year (but managed to get re-insured). But surely if they are really concerned about rink safety and not being sued they would not let this thing happen. The statement above the front door saying people skate at their own rink means diddly squat. They have to ensure that people are safe and this includes controlling the behaviour of people on the rink. Even if there was only one other person on the ice, they should still not have people playing hockey in case something happened to that one other person.

Anyway that is my rant for the day. I am sure there are others that would feel the same.

[TashaKat]

Originally posted by Aussie Willy
Now this rink lost it's public liability insurance last year (but managed to get re-insured). But surely if they are really concerned about rink safety and not being sued they would not let this thing happen. The statement above the front door saying people skate at their own rink means diddly squat. They have to ensure that people are safe and this includes controlling the behaviour of people on the rink. Even if there was only one other person on the ice, they should still not have people playing hockey in case something happened to that one other person.

Anyway that is my rant for the day. I am sure there are others that would feel the same.

Yikes!! 8O That is so totally against any common sense never mind health and safety issues! Skating at your own risk is meant to involve falling over, colliding etc NOT the chance of being hit in the head by a hockey puck. I cannot believe that this is actually allowed to go on. At any rink that I have been to there are separate sessions for hockey and no hockey sticks or pucks are allowed anywhere near a public session (this also applies to hats and gloves!). Apart from the obvious issue of being hit by one of these things there is the additional hazard of actually tripping over one. Also when there are hockey players on the ice with pucks and sticks there are either hockey nets pulled around or the rink has a permanent see-through barrier above the boards. This must surely lay them wide open to litigation.

L x

[garyc254]

Definitely an issue. No hockey sticks or pucks are allowed at any of the rinks I skate during public sessions. Management would throw them off the ice if they tried to bring them on.

Your rink management is setting themselves up for a lawsuit.

[sk8er1964]

That's absolutely crazy that they'd allow sticks and pucks on an open session. Everywhere I skate they have seperate drop in hockey or sticks and pucks sessions (where everybody on the ice must be in pads and helmets). Doesn't the rink management realize that there is a reason hockey players wear so much protective gear? Being hit by a puck or stick certainly would be no laughing matter.

[kayskate]

Apparently one must fail an intelligence test in order to manage an ice rink. The place where I skate at least does not allow this. They have separate hockey sessions and helmets/gear are req'd. However, the idiots allow pair skating on public sessions. Safety issues should be straightforward. However, rink management simply does not seem to care even when customers complain.

Kay

[dbny]

Originally posted by kayskate
Apparently one must fail an intelligence test in order to manage an ice rink. Kay

Hey, watch it! That's what I hope my new career will be. I think we just don't notice the properly managed rinks so much, because there is nothing to complain about.

[dooobedooo]

I think you should write a polite letter to the top management, pointing out the risks of flying pucks, and what this could do to their public liability insurance.

It is not just damage to the health of public skaters, who may sue, but also damage to the building fabric that must be considered.

[kayskate]

Originally posted by dbny
Hey, watch it! That's what I hope my new career will be. I think we just don't notice the properly managed rinks so much, because there is nothing to complain about.

Since you are a skater yourself, you will obviously use better judgement than some of these rink managers we have been discussing. I would love to skate in a well-managed rink. I have heard such utopias exist. I have not skated regularly in one for a long time.

Kay

[Aussie Willy]

Hey I would love to come and skate at a rink managed by yourself dbny!

I thought that most people would agree with this, and the point about why hockey players wear so much gear just speaks volumes. I might say something next time I go in. The thing that gets me though is when it comes to general public the management are very quick to tell them off for throwing ice, playing chasey, etc. It is usually the hockey people who seem to get away with much more.

[dbny]

Originally posted by Aussie Willy
Hey I would love to come and skate at a rink managed by yourself dbny!

I thought that most people would agree with this, and the point about why hockey players wear so much gear just speaks volumes. I might say something next time I go in. The thing that gets me though is when it comes to general public the management are very quick to tell them off for throwing ice, playing chasey, etc. It is usually the hockey people who seem to get away with much more.

Thank you :D

It's sadly true, that there are an awful lot of poorly managed rinks out there, the ones I skate at included for the most part. I don't think intelligence is the problem. Not quite sure what it is, except perhaps that most rinks are not run by skaters or lovers of skating, or even people really interested in their jobs.

[Aussie Willy]

Originally posted by dbny
It's sadly true, that there are an awful lot of poorly managed rinks out there, the ones I skate at included for the most part. I don't think intelligence is the problem. Not quite sure what it is, except perhaps that most rinks are not run by skaters or lovers of skating, or even people really interested in their jobs.
Too true too true!

I remember one day (it was on my birthday in fact) that I went to one of the staff to complain about hockey kids playing chasey and behaving quite dangerously and got told it was a public session and that they could not do anything about it and was not going to do anything about it. At the exact same time one of the coaches was also complaining to the actual manager. So something did get done about the bad behaviour. But boy did I lose it, particularly seeing the guy I spoke to had only been working there a short time and I had been skating there for at least 8 years and he knew that. I spoke to the manager and said that as a long term of the patron that I deserved to be treated with more respect when I had concerns about safety, considering how much money I had spent at that rink over the years (yes a bit arrogant I know). After that the staff member has always been very nice to me. And also rink rules are generally enforced more strongly than what they had in the past (except for the other day).

[MacII]

Hello there, I just happened to be browsing various skate and hockey forums and I happen to stumble across your section on liability and ice rinks. It fascinated me to the point where I'm pretty sure I know who and where you are talking about, because there arn't many ice rinks in Melbourne to begin with. I happen to be one of those "hockey" (trying to be anyway) players that kitted up that day and I probably wouldn't have replyed but the way the managers were verbally bashed prompted me to do so.
Firstly, before you get all defensive I do agree with you to a point. Yes pucks are dangerous and flying pucks are even more dangerous, but how many pucks do you recall flying out of the end we were in? None, a couple did slide out but we were quick to pick them up. We also make it a habit to tell the public skaters (parents, kids, even the figure skaters) about what we are doing and if they don't like it we don't bring the pucks out. If we didn't speak to you I do appologise, and it probably would have been good for you to tell us on the day (or speak to me personally in the future, I wear a Devils - white and red top). If we were that dangerous wouldn't it have been good to stop us there and then rather than let us play the whole then writing a complaint on the internet? (where there is a slim chance of me seeing it anyway) We don't even play all that furiously any way. Its a very casual and fun game we play.
Secondly, I know the managers are there for a purpose and they do a great job at this particular rink. But i think they realise the extreme low risk and the fact that we can never do this kind of thing anywhere else or at any other time. I can't afford to play hockey at the moment but I am working to get there eventually, and I've tried the developmental council for hoskey but it's hard enjoying myself when I'm surrounded by bratty little kids that are there because either their parents can afford it (i'm not bitter towards this though - i wish i had the opportunity) or because they are living their hockey dreams through their kids. I found it hard to learn anything at all.
Finally, tell me what is more dangerous: a slow moving sliding puck or a figure skater spinning/backing into a small child? You said, "IS THIS A PUBLIC SESSION" but have seen this plenty of times at public sessions. (Isn't figure skating a sport? So how does that give it the right over hockey?) I even saw a figure skater hit a child to the ground and after she helped him up she yelled at him. It looked like his first time there and what a thing to remember. Can't tell me he'll be back anytime soon to take up the sport. The figure skaters race around the rink scaring kids alot more than a puck would. Once again we have never "lifted" a puck out of our end. Also the chunks of ice you guys tear out of the ground leaves gapping hole which can cause people to fall over (ie. myself - i'm not the best skater, i'll be honest).
I'm not trying to create bad blood here but i would really like it if you spoke to me rather than publicly bashing the managers. Feel free to email: kinners79@yahoo.com, i'd appreciate the feed back.


: It sux being a Hockey Fan in Australia! :

[dbny]

MacII:
Purely from the insurance point of view, no one not properly attired for hockey should ever be allowed on the ice when hockey (however casual) is in progress. That basically rules out hockey on a public session. Insurers don't care how careful a particular small group is, they just look at the stats and the rules follow. I learned that in ice arena management school on "insurance" day.

[TashaKat]

MacII

As someone who used to play hockey and who's ex-partner was a semi-pro hockey player I can sympathise (slightly) with your sentiments. However ..... pucks and sticks are potentially dangerous no matter how casual the game. You don't have to hit a puck that hard for it to cause damage (I have seen someone knocked out by a puck THROWN by kids messing around at the rink, my ex had his top row of teeth knocked out by a hockey stick in a 'casual' game of hockey!).

You cite the scenario of figure skaters 'spinning/ backing' into a small child. Firstly, 'skaters' have right of way in the centre of the rink in most ice rinks, small children shouldn't be there if they don't have the control to get out of the way and the rink guards should pick up on this before it happens. Figure skaters (and hockey players) have generally more control than the general public and, therefore, are a lot safer moving around the ice than someone who can go forwards fairly quickly but with no control. Any misdemeanour (the figure skater knocking over the child and yelling) is wrong. Yes, it happens, it doesn't follow that we are all bad as a group! This isn't about hockey versus figure, it's about common sense.

At my rink any object that can be dropped on the ice and cause a trip (or other) hazard is banned in public sessions. This includes hats, scarves, bags ...... I'm sorry, but in my opinion hockey pucks and sticks come under the same category for me!

Regarding anyone posting here about their problems. No-one was specifically mentioned, the rink name wasn't specifically mentioned and the concerns raised were valid. You may not agree with them but I certainly didn't feel that it was a personal attack on anyone. Maybe the nail was hit on the head? This is a forum where we share our skating experiences, good and bad. Quite a few ice rinks are fairly dismissive to figure skaters so we do feel that it's pointless complaining because they don't listen anyway. It can also be difficult approaching someone on the ice, you just don't know how they're going to react if you don't know them and anyway, it SHOULD be the rink management that are dealing with potentially dangerous practises. On here we can get things off our chest and see other points of view.

I hope that you can sort out something regarding hockey practise as the situation is hardly ideal for anyone.

Good luck!

[MacII]

I accept your point. I'm not really having a go at figure skating, I just stating what I saw and I am aware that sticks and pucks are seen as being dangerous. I just wish there was more time and space for recreational hockey.

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by MacII
I accept your point. I'm not really having a go at figure skating, I just stating what I saw and I am aware that sticks and pucks are seen as being dangerous. I just wish there was more time and space for recreational hockey.

Many rinks here have sticks and pucks sessions, where anyone with full gear can drop in and practice. I'll see adults, kids with their parents or coaches, etc out there. They are not games. At two of the rinks I skate at, they also have adult drop in (scrimmage) sessions during the day, usually at lunch time for the rinks with 2 or more sheets. Some also have them in the late evenings. If you have enough players to support such a session, why don't you suggest it to management? It gets the sticks and pucks off the open skating ice (which I agree is very dangerous - I'm the mom of a hockey player and I see what goes on in hockey practices - I'd never let my kid out on the ice with sticks and pucks and no pads), and leaves the open skating folks out of the danger zone. I'm sure there's got to be some empty ice time at your rink that they could use to accomodate the non-league hockey players and the rink could make some $$$$ too!

Edited to say - yeah, I know this post isn't figure skating related, but maybe it can help the Aussie figure skaters & hockey players survive together better!

[Aussie Willy]

MacII - hey I understand how frustrating it must be for you because the cost of ice hire and the like can be so expensive. At the moment we are currently in danger of losing another figure session because the ice hire just cost so much. And you don't always want to play league - just want to have a hit which is good fun. But there does need to be an appropriate time for it.

I hope you got my email (I haven't heard from you but I did send you one).

One thing I should add is I don't discount hockey as a sport. At one stage I even considered hockey myself but then got really involved in figure skating and thus started spending lots of money on that. Now I do my twice a week skating and cannot even afford lessons all the time.

sk8er1964 - all opinions are welcome and the points you raised are really relevant to the discussion.

[kayskate]

I skate at a rink that has stick/puck sessions. Anyone in full gear can drop in and practice. Yes, they are at lunchtime. They also have pick up hockey. Additionally, hockey skaters are free to skate on public ice. They cannot use pucks/sticks though. However, they are welcome to practice their skating skills. We have even had speed skaters on public sessions. These are daytime sessions that are usually not overly crowded.

Kay

[intro]

Aussie Willy it is not only Melbourne that lets hockey players onto the ice. There is also rink in Sydney in which during the day time sessions this occurs. I complained to the rink management about this issue a number of years ago, but at the same time I was concerned about the arc welding on the Zamboni next to the ice during the 4pm afternoon sessions with many kids on the ice just next to the welding. The arc Welding stopped but 5 years later hockey players still go onto the ice with their pucks. . At this rink there is lack of practice time for more experienced skaters without beginners on the ice. . I saw a senior skater when trying a double axel completely slice through the boot of a 4 year old who was skating in the early morning session.The skin fortunately was not cut and this boy is now one of the competitive dancers. At another Sydney rink there was another incident where a girl had severe blood loss requiring hospitalisation after her calf was lacerated by a more senoir skaters blade. At yet another rink one of the kids had severe lacerations to his fingers when he was on the ice at the same time as the Zamboni.There appears to be a general lack of concern about liability from some rink managers