Lessons & Lawsuits

[garyc254]

I know that paid coaches carry insurance against student claims for damages.

Last night I heard two coaches talking and one said that anyone that is assisting another skater to learn or practice could be liable if that skater fell or ran into someone else while that person was assisting. No matter that you're not getting paid nor that you're not a coach.

I'm notorious for helping out new skaters. Could I be held liable?

[dbny]

In this country, any one can sue anyone else for almost anything. Whether or not it goes anywhere is another matter. I frequently help beginners also, but I do have coaching insurance. My larger worry is that some insecure skating school director will take offense (this has happened). I always figure that if I'm not getting paid, then I'm not coaching, as that is the way the rinks view it. Hopefully, the courts would view it that way also.

[Alexeiskate]

At our rink there is a sign that says "Skate at your own risk". Also when you sign up for freestyle session you do have to sign a waver that says you understand the risk involved with skating. Doesn't that free the coaches and ice-management from any kind of skating-injury lawsuit?

[flippet]

Originally posted by Alexeiskate
At our rink there is a sign that says "Skate at your own risk". Also when you sign up for freestyle session you do have to sign a waver that says you understand the risk involved with skating. Doesn't that free the coaches and ice-management from any kind of skating-injury lawsuit?

Unfortunately, no. They mean basically squat. The ice rink at Notre Dame University is now only for their own students/faculty, because even with those types of things in place, an alumni fell, got hurt, and sued. No more public sessions. (Nice of the person, no?) Same thing happened at the rink closest to my job--someone fell on a crowded public session, said the guards weren't doing enough to make things safe, and sued and won. Now they don't do public sessions anymore either...and it's really frustrating, because the noon public I used to do was basically empty...a couple of lessons, an adult or advanced teen or two, and a hockey guy or two doing laps. The rink was having people sign waivers while the case was pending, but when they lost, they decided that even that wasn't worth it, because people can sue, regardless.

It just makes me so mad...do people not understand that ice is slippery? :roll: If you can't skate, get lessons, or shut up/get off the ice. Don't sue and ruin the fun for literally, everybody else in the community. :evil: :evil:


from dbny: My larger worry is that some insecure skating school director will take offense (this has happened).

This has happened to me, too. :roll: They really need to get over that...we're adults, and adults help other adults. (I'll occasionally help a pestering kid on a public too, if it gets them to leave me alone!! ;) ) I never thought about a liability issue, though....yikes. I hope nothing like that would fly in court.

[Debbie S]

First, a disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, so this is based on what I've heard.

Waivers essentially prove that someone knew the risks of what they wre doing. However, a rink (or swimming pool, or any activity place, really) has an obligation to take necessary precautions to prevent injuries. If a person wants to sue if they get injured, they have to prove that the rink is guilty of gross negligence, meaning that the rink did not do everything they could to prevent a problem. In that case, a waiver wouldn't disqualify someone from getting $$ for damages.

For example, let's say it's a crowded public session. The rink is obligated, first of all, to adhere to fire department capacity limits in terms of the # of people on the ice at any one time. They also need to provide supervision in the form of enough rink guards to watch over the crowd. I assume "enough" would be open to interpretation, but most rinks try to cover themselves by having enough guards to handle a capacity crowd, if it gets to that. The guards are then responsible for watching everyone and enforcing the rink's safety rules, and the rink management is responsible for making sure they know what those rules are. But, if the guards on duty don't enforce the rules (even after complaints from skaters) and/or even leave the rink area so that no one is "minding the store,' then an injured person has a legitimate case.

This actually happened at a public session I went to last summer (fortunately, no one got injured), but both guards were gone for a good 5-10 minutes and even when they were there, they basically just skated around talking to each other. I complained to them several times about kids tearing through the inner circle with those horrid metal bar things, and they still didn't really do anything. Had there been injuries, I suspect that person may have had a case.

At another rink I skate at sometimes, their public sessions have several guards, who I think are figure skaters (or former skaters) themselves. They are also a bit older (adults, as opposed to teenagers), and they are VIGILANT about enforcing the circle rule, as well as other safety rules, and violaters are quickly dealt with. I suspect this rink's ownership has done a better job emphasizing liability issues with its guards.

[Aussie Willy]

Gee that is a sad state of affairs if you could be sued by just helping someone.

I have always taken "skating at my own risk" to mean that if I fall and hurt myself doing a jump, spin or otherwise then that is my own problem and not the rinks fault (hey I got stitches in my head a couple of years ago doing the Starfright Waltz. It was during my dance lesson and it would never have occurred to me to sue my coach because it is just one of those freaky things that happens). However I have complained in the past about the rink not ensuring people skate safely because I skate at my own risk, not at the risk of someone else's stupid behaviour. The rink used to be pretty bad but they are much better at controlling behaviour of patrons now, basically because they lost their public liability insurance last year. They are insured now but I think take the issue a lot more seriously.

But getting back to your question. I would only think paid coaches would be responsible in this regard and should have the appropriate liability insurance to cover them. My friends and I help each other all the time but would never consider it coaching - it is just "advice". So I really don't think you have anything to worry about. And personally I think it would be a very petty person who would want to sue just because someone is helping them. That is one of the ways you make new friends at the rink. :D

[TashaKat]

Originally posted by Aussie Willy
Gee that is a sad state of affairs if you could be sued by just helping someone.

And personally I think it would be a very petty person who would want to sue just because someone is helping them. That is one of the ways you make new friends at the rink. :D

Whilst I partly agree with what you are saying that fact is that 'we' aren't coaches and no matter how well meaning we could potentially be telling someone something that is detrimental to them. I know that we wouldn't deliberately cause injury to someone but there are people out there who have more faith in their abilities than actual ability!! I have seen well-meaning skaters trying to show complete beginnners things that they haven't mastered themselves (but believe that they have ..... does that make sense!). If anyone ever asks me to help them with something I stress to them that I am not a coach but will be happy to help them on the understanding that I am not a professional and that if they want to learn to skate properly then they should take lessons!

L x

[Aussie Willy]

Originally posted by TashaKat
I have seen well-meaning skaters trying to show complete beginnners things that they haven't mastered themselves (but believe that they have ..... does that make sense!). If anyone ever asks me to help them with something I stress to them that I am not a coach but will be happy to help them on the understanding that I am not a professional and that if they want to learn to skate properly then they should take lessons!

L x
I agree with you about this. I just groan when I see people at the rink who can barely skate trying to show someone how to do an axel (just because they try axels themselves when they can barely skate and think they can skate because they think they can do an axel - gee does this make sense?).

I get kids in public session myself ask me to show them how to sit spin and I just say I can do it because I practise. I might show them a basic two foot spin or back swizzles but then I suggest coming along on Sat or Sun mornings to the group lessons where they will get professional tutition.

But then one of the nice things about skating is helping your friends and supporting them. So it depends who you are giving the advice to.

[kayskate]

Originally posted by Aussie Willy
I just groan when I see people at the rink who can barely skate trying to show someone how to do an axel

Sadly I know someone like this who is actually a coach.

On the safety issue.
I attended a public session recently that was not mobbed, but had a good turn out. There were at least 25 people on the ice including a group of children, adults, rec skaters, and a couple of teen freestylers. A couple of younger adults who coach at the rink were skating pairs in the crowd. I thought this was grossly irresponsible of them. There was no manager in the rink, or I would have made a comment. Not to be a tattle tale, but b/c the situation was not safe for anyone. As professionals, these people should have realized the session was too crowded for pairs and they should have done something else. IMO, if someone had gotten hurt under those circumstances, those pair skaters (especially since they are coaches!) should have been liable and possibly the rink too for allowing that sort of dangerous skating.

Kay

[dobiesk8r]

I'm really leery of helping beginners. I skate at public sessions
that are fairly empty during the day and there are many beginners
and sometimes they ask me how to do something. My response
is suggest that they sign up for group instruction and tell them
that it's fun. I never explain something like a spin or a jump;
I basically tell people to keep their heads up, relax and bend
their knees more. Even showing someone how to do back
crossovers can result in a fall, and I don't want to be responsible
for someone hurting herself. I did show someone a move in
the field the other day, but she was a very competent skater.

The coaches teaching on the sessions often ask me to demo
spins, jumps, etc., but I figure that's different.

I generally save my instruction for when I'm teaching groups.
I taught beginner hockey, beginner adult and advanced adult
this weekend. And for adults, if they're nervous I recommend
crash pads, and make sure they know that they ARE going to
fall at some point, it's unavoidable.

[dbny]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Aussie Willy
I just groan when I see people at the rink who can barely skate trying to show someone how to do an axel
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by kayskate
Sadly I know someone like this who is actually a coach.

Kay

There are many coaches who can successfully coach elements they cannot do (either anymore, or ever), just as there are great skaters who can't coach worth a dime. Coaching and skating are two different skills.

[flippet]

Originally posted by Aussie Willy

I might show them a basic two foot spin or back swizzles but then I suggest coming along on Sat or Sun mornings to the group lessons where they will get professional tutition.

But then one of the nice things about skating is helping your friends and supporting them. So it depends who you are giving the advice to.

That's basically where I leave it, too--if I'm practising spinning, and a kid asks me if I can show them how to do it, I might show them a basic beginner two-foot spin. I wouldn't advise on a jump unless I knew/had seen a person on numerous occasions, and had a basic feel for their ability--at which point I might show them a half-flip or something. But mostly the advice consists of 'bend your knees', etc. It's totally different, however, with my best skating friend who has a great amount of comfort on the ice, but hasn't taken many lessons. I'm sort of her 'de facto' coach, and while I don't know all that much, really, she knows that, and we basically just fool around, as friends will, figuring out stuff on our own.


But, if the guards on duty don't enforce the rules (even after complaints from skaters) and/or even leave the rink area so that no one is "minding the store,' then an injured person has a legitimate case.

I think this may have been the case at my nearby rink. Who knows whether the guards were doing their job or not, but even if they were, all it takes is one smart-*** hockey skater to knock someone over, first offense, and it appears like the guards weren't on the ball. :x

[kayskate]

There are many coaches who can successfully coach elements they cannot do (either anymore, or ever), just as there are great skaters who can't coach worth a dime. Coaching and skating are two different skills.

Actually, I was referring to someone who could barely skate, not just unable to do a difficult jump or spin. This person is a very weak skater, yet the person coaches. I agree, people can certainly teach skills they used to do or build upon skills they have/had (extending the principles of a double to a triple, etc). However, when the skater is weak to begin w/, I personally question the individual's understanding of technique. IMO, some level of mastery is required.

Kay

[Skatewind]

The "Skate at Your Own Risk" signs are meaningless if it comes down to a question of negligence. Not only coaches can contribute to negligence. So I would say, unfortunately yes, there are situations where somebody helping a skater could be at risk depending on the circumstances.