Plagarising programs

[Aussie Willy]

Does anyone else have a problem with people who plagarise programs of famous skaters?

We have a couple at our rink who for the forthcoming adult comp are doing move for move the Susanna program that was used by Anassina & Peizerat.

Also a couple of years ago we had a guy take off Philippe Candeloro's 3 musketeer program down to the very costume that Philippe wore.

So yes I do have a problem with it, because even though I have seen skaters skate to music I love and would love to skate to myself, I just do not feel right about taking off what someone else has created, particularly when I know I could never do it as well as what those great skaters. I would much rather do something different and use my own creativity.

[backspin]

Wow! I've never seen this, but I agree that's really bad!

I personally have "borrowed" a step or two, but then have taken off from there in my own directions. And nothing that would be considered a skater's "signature" move--what would be the point?

I would think that plagarism that blatent should be penalized by the judges--surely they realize? I don't recall anything in the rulebook, however...

[mikawendy]

Originally posted by backspin
Wow! I've never seen this, but I agree that's really bad!

I personally have "borrowed" a step or two, but then have taken off from there in my own directions. And nothing that would be considered a skater's "signature" move--what would be the point?

I would think that plagarism that blatent should be penalized by the judges--surely they realize? I don't recall anything in the rulebook, however...

Yes, I agree, borrowing a move or two is one thing, but the whole program seems like something one ought not to steal, especially because there's usually no way to give proper credit to the original skaters and choreographers. In a way, the skaters who steal the programs are hurting themselves by not stretching to use new choreography and interpretation.

As far as borrowing moves, I guess that over time, even a skater's signature moves might be considered fair game--for example, we wouldn't otherwise have the axel, the lutz, or the salchow... or the Biellman spin, or the besti squat, or the ina bauer. But it is nice that these people's names have been given to their "trademark" moves.

[tdnuva]

Interesting topic cause I thought about it the other way round. :D

Means: What if good skaters (!) would redo a well choreographed (!) routine like it's normal in ballet? For me it's a pity that fine programs are not performed any more cause the skaters which did them retired. But perhaps this would be more of a possibility for the professional than the eligible skating world....

[Flatfoote]

When I was in a competative group, and another group "stole" one of our moves, we were incensed, until our instructor pointed out, "the greatest form of flattery is when someone copies you."

[Mel On Ice]

I don't know what I would call it, but its not plagarism, especially if you look at it as an athletic event. Heck, I do a split falling leaf because I want to *think* I'm skating like Michelle Kwan, but I know better than to think I'm a perfect mimic of her.

Didn't adult skater Jay Kobayashi recreate Kwan's "Red Violin" program, right down to the dress, to rave reviews?

Sorry, I don't see it as cheating, or stealing, nor do I see any reason to get upset over it. If you are up to that skill level and can do a program justice, rock on.

[MissIndigo]

Jay's re-creation of one of Michelle's programs was for an artistic purpose, since he was actually in character as Michelle. I feel that's altogether different from copying another skater's program...of course, to be in the appropriate character, he had to include some of her signature moves to enhance the entertainment value of the program.

Perhaps these other skaters are in character too?

It is nice to be inspired by and emulate elite skaters, but I think it should be left at that, inspiration, if a skater is looking to expand his/her style. If he/she sees a move he likes, I feel it can be appropriate to enhance the individual style, should it suit them.

[dbny]

I don't see anything wrong with it either, but personally would not want to skate to anything that would definitely evoke images of skaters who are very obviously much better than I. That is, why invite an unflattering comparison?

[Aussie Willy]

Originally posted by dbny
That is, why invite an unflattering comparison?
I love the way you have put this. :D

As I said, I have seen particular skaters skate to piece of music and would love to skate to those pieces of music myself, but when a skater has done what you could call the "ultimate" interpretation of a piece, why would you try and emulate it eg if anyone else tries to do Bolero I just go "why?". Nothing can compare to T&D's. Also I think Yagudin did the definitive "Winter". Why would anyone else try and use this music when Yags program was so fantastic.

Funny thing though is "Missing" which was done by the Duschenays at Worlds was taken directly from T&D. But I always like the Duschenays performance better and thought it suited them better than T&D.

As for stealing moves, I really don't have a problem with that. It is fun to try different things and sometimes it can help you extend your skating repetoire. I have tried hydroblading moves because I have seen B&K do them. But I really do draw the line at a program move for move.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by Aussie Willy
Funny thing though is "Missing" which was done by the Duschenays at Worlds was taken directly from T&D. But I always like the Duschenays performance better and thought it suited them better than T&D. Didn't Chris Dean choreograph the Duchenays at that point, though? I think it was their programme first, then he gave it to them and coached them.

He's a lovely choreographer - he choreographed "Team Manic", an ad-hoc synchro team that performed at the Dune of Flanders Cup last year. At least, he did some of the choreography - I put up rather a black by saying "Oh, I liked that bit" to the skater who'd done the rest of it, to which her reply was, "Yeah, that was the bit Chris Dean did!" Oops.....:roll:

[AshBugg44]

In my Carmen program I end the same as Sasha. Doesn't mean that I plagerize her program though.

[skaternum]

Originally posted by AshBugg44
In my Carmen program I end the same as Sasha. Doesn't mean that I plagerize her program though.

No, but why would you want to use the same music and same ending as an elite level skater? I'm seriously asking this question. Everyone has seen Sasha's program, so you know they'll be comparing you to her. And chances are, you'll come out on the bottom. So why would you want to invite the comparisons?

[Clarice]

This is a rather interesting topic. I've never copied anybody else's programs, but, as a musician I guess I do this all the time. If I play Mozart, I'm opening myself to comparisons with every other musician who's ever performed the piece. I have my students learn great music all the time - they're obviously not as good as professionals who perform this stuff, but they learn and develop by working on it. When I learn a new piece, I often listen to recordings of great artists, and learn a lot by doing so. I wonder why we don't ever do the same thing in skating?

[jazzpants]

You know, I've been reading about Jay's MK program and this is my first reaction...

http://smilies.crowd9.com/kao/chika/chirolp_baku2.gif

(After I've stop laughing...) It's FLATTERING SATIRE!!! It's an INTERPRETATIVE program!!! (BTW: he was NOT using her "Red Violin" music along with the dress. He was using some tune from "Dreamgirls" as I recalled. The MK mannerism and moves, etc, was part of the character he was portraying.) Take it as nothing but that!!!

Cheers,
jazzpants (who will never look at her coach the same way again after THAT stunt!!!) :lol:

[TreSk8sAZ]

I guess I'm not entirely sure that I see a problem with taking programs and trying them for yourself. Yes, it may bring unflattering comparisons... however, you could put every person that skates in the same moves to the same music, and every single person would bring something different to those moves. I've seen this in my rink. No, no one can exactly emulate Sasha or MK. But they CAN bring a new stlye or flair to a program that has been done by one of the greats.

On another, probably off topic note, dancers do this all the time (Both ice dancers and stage dancers). In a compulsory dance, everyone skates the same moves, but with different styles and emotions. You can see an example of this in ODs and FDs too.

[AshBugg44]

Originally posted by skaternum
No, but why would you want to use the same music and same ending as an elite level skater? I'm seriously asking this question. Everyone has seen Sasha's program, so you know they'll be comparing you to her. And chances are, you'll come out on the bottom. So why would you want to invite the comparisons?

Because I love the music and I'm a very good dramatic skater, so it fits my personality perfectly. People use the same music as each other all the time, wether it be on purpose or not.

[Blayse_01]

What if its not a famous persons solo? what if its a solo that was done by a skater from your club who has moved on? does that make any difference? What if its an old coaches solo?

[skaternum]

Originally posted by AshBugg44
Because I love the music and I'm a very good dramatic skater, so it fits my personality perfectly. People use the same music as each other all the time, wether it be on purpose or not.

Interesting. I've never (afaik) used the same music as another skater. I go out of my way to pick stuff that no one else has used. I value the uniqueness in each of my programs. I would never want to invite the comparisons, either. I've been at competitions (or ) where there was a rehashed program (just parts even; not necessarily the whole thing). The comparisons DO come, and they're not pretty. :roll: "Who does she think she is? Michele Kwan?" "Oh, look. A Sasha-wannabe."

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by skaternum
Interesting. I've never (afaik) used the same music as another skater. I go out of my way to pick stuff that no one else has used. I wouldn't say I got out of my way to use something no one has used. BUUUT, I got such rave reviews on the music I've picked (NOT my skating!!! :cry: ) that I've had a few takers saying "When you're done with your skating music, can I use it???" :P

Sure, if they pay me enough??? :twisted: (Just kidding...)

[Aussie Willy]

Add me to the list of skaters who has never used a piece of music that has been used by another skater after seeing them skate it. I really do try and find something that no-one else has done before. Though I must say I had already picked Supreme Being's of Leisure when I got a copy of the freedance that Wing & Lowe did. It gave me inspiration for a couple of moves, but basically I did my own thing.

There is so much good music out there - I just don't understand why people do the same old stuff or have to do what someone else has done.

BTW - what do people think of coaches using the same piece of music for students year after year (hand me down music)?

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by Aussie Willy
BTW - what do people think of coaches using the same piece of music for students year after year (hand me down music)?
Note to self: Gift certificates to music/record stores for these coaches! :twisted: (Sorry, couldn't resist...) :P

[dbny]

Originally posted by Aussie Willy
BTW - what do people think of coaches using the same piece of music for students year after year (hand me down music)?

:lol: I met a coach who uses the same exact programs year after year. Her students skate ISI, so most of the programs are cookie cutter anyway because there is little latitude in the elements. I would be bored to death with it, and my daughter would just plain refuse.

[Aussie Willy]

Originally posted by jazzpants
Note to self: Gift certificates to music/record stores for these coaches! :twisted: (Sorry, couldn't resist...) :P
PMSL - That is funny. But not such a bad idea!

What is really sad is sometimes the music the coach uses dates back to the seventies!! And it usually is one of those sci-fi TV movie themes or classical music with a beat.

Clarice - interesting what you say about music, but generally it was written to be performed by other people. Many composers wrote music for instruments they did not play. Can a composer play all the instruments themselves for an orchestral work? I don't think so. But the great thing about music is being able to put your own interpretation on it. That is what I enjoy about playing an instrument myself. But could I compose for myself - I don't think so. But isn't the main thing about ballet is the general choreography is standard and it depends on the dancer's interpretation. Okay any ballet dancers please come forward!