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[BABYSKATES]

If my daughter's coaches were at a different rink, I would happily leave our "state of the art" training facility because there are too many problems with the freestyle sessions.

The biggest problem is that there is no set lower level for skating on Freestyle. There is one elite session for Senior National competitors and a pairs session but other than that, it's open sessions with no restrictions. Tiny children learning their T stop and 2 foot spins are often out in the middle of the ice unaware that anyone else is on the ice. There are near misses after near misses... To make matters worse, during ice cuts, the coaches bring their beginners over to the freestyle ice (without paying the additional fee). These kids can't move fast enough to get out of the way so they ruin the freestyle session for the kids who are appropriate to be there and have paid.

The parents of the beginners are often outraged and complaining because the "big kids" don't watch out for the little ones. :roll: Hello? It's Freestyle. You have to be able to move so that everyone can practice. While everyone needs to be aware of the other skaters on the ice, the "big kids" sometimes can hardly practice with all the tiny tots who wander into their path, paying no attention to the fact that they are cutting someone off. The "big kids" get frustrated and they will just go full steam ahead into their program or jump narrowly missing little ones who don't move.

The rink has - on paper - an ice etiquette policy that states that all of the corners are designated as Lutz corners and there is to be no loitering there. Unfortunately, many beginners choose this spot to practice crossovers. Many young coaches choose to teach in the corners. I have talked to the skating director but obviously she doesn't think it is important because she routinely gives her lessons in the most heavily used corner. :roll:

I'm hoping someone can share their experience or give me an idea of what to suggest to the powers that be at our rink. This is getting worse every day.

[Magz]

im not a parent but i know how you feel. In our area of club's the only one that allows spring summer and fall skating (the rest just do winter) and so all these clubs from other clubs are on our ice teaching their beginners (it seems like that's all there is) so there's them doing nothing or playing tag or something while im trying to practice so i can pass a test before i leave for summer. this is the only reason i'm not skating this summer. and (though i know this isn't their fault) when we play music the person who's music is on has right of way. in the winter it's no problem they call the name and everyone knows who it is. but then you bring in all these kids who dont know anyone and completely cut you off. then there are the people who just stand and talk and get in your way but when they're in a lesson they scream at you for being in your way lol anyways i know how you feel whew big rant lol

[Clarice]

This is an hot button issue at our rink, too - only one in the area, so there are no other options. The club would love to offer high/low sessions, but can't afford to buy that much ice. So we're all stuck on mixed freestyles, trying our best to coexist. Basically, this is a safety/liability issue, and I would approach the rink on this basis. If you haven't had a serious collision yet, you've just been lucky. As far as the skaters go, responsibility cuts both ways - the older kids, who have more control, absolutely need to watch out for the beginners, BUT the beginners have the responsibility to learn the "rules of the road" as rapidly as possible! If a child isn't old enough to learn and follow basic ice etiquette, they aren't old enough to be on a freestyle session, in my opinion. There really should be some kind of basic standard a skater has to meet in order to skate freestyles - something along the lines of what lifeguards do to test whether you're allowed to swim in the deep end. Does the rink allow limited freestyle practice on public sessions? Ours hasn't allowed ANY jumps or spins - we've worked with them to allow spins (no camel positions) and single jumps below lutz so that the basic skills skaters can practice on publics instead of freestyles. Once a skater has a program, though, they obviously have to skate freestyles at least some of the time. A lot of the responsibility has to rest with coaches, to teach new parents and skaters what the norms are, and to schedule lessons on appropriate sessions. The club can police its own sessions, but the rink has to take responsibility for monitoring theirs. Parents need to use a little common sense, too, and evaluate sessions to determine whether their child belongs on a particular hour - some are much more busy/dangerous than others.

[arena_gal]

I get your point about beginners. However, setting a level for freestyle doesn't make people smarter, they can just do more skating tricks. We have a teenager who passed silver something, but is the most airbrained skater out there.

[CanAmSk8ter]

If you hadn't put a location in your profile, I'd have sworn your kid must be from my rink. Another super-nice facility that will put anyone on freestyle sessions. I now drive twice as far to avoid daytime sessions at this rink. There are coaches at both rinks that are notorious for not teaching their students basic rules of courtesy; I had run-ins with two of them yesterday. Both times there were only about five skaters on the ice and I had my music on; not only did neither skater make any effort to move, neither of them seemed to even realize that they should. Of course, one was four years old and the other one was about five, which brings me to arenagal's point: level requirements aren't enough. I don't care if these kids are in Pre-Alpha or Freestyle 2, 99% of kids that age cannot fully comprehend what other people around them are doing and where they might be going, and actually skate themselves at the same time.

Personally, if it were up to me, I'd say for open freestyles kids had to be at least Freestyle 3 OR at least Gamma and at least ten years old. For low freestyles, or open freestyles that are less crowded like the ones during the school day I think you can relax it a little. But, IMHO, kids in Learn-to-Skate or kids younger than five do not belong on freestyles without a coach. Period.

[Candleonwater]

I've seen the same problem at our rink. Fortunately we have one session on Fridays that is listed as Low/Middle... and during the winter they offer a FS on Saturdays for Gamma - FS3. Other than that, the majority of our sessions are Mixed (they have to have passed FS3)... which would be fine, however, my daughter, who is FS5 just isn't the same speed as the Junior/Senior level skaters. Of course the fact that she's 6 doesn't help because too many skaters feel free to tell her to move out of their way. My original way of thinking was, how is she going to get up to their speed without getting out there, so I added her to a session... BIG MISTAKE. Fortunately she didn't get hurt, but after a couple of months of watching her (literally) look both ways before doing something, I yanked her. Now she just sticks to her one FS session.

[Lanie]

I'm not a parent but a skater (and my dad knows NOTHING about skating). We have two rinks at our arena--one used for the beginners and wahtnot, the other for FS skaters (I should be on the FS rink but my coach doesn't teach me on the FS rink). FS rink is usually used by skaters like Beatrisa Liang, Danielle Kahle, the "more elite" skaters, I guess. Most of them look like they're starting/doing doubles or triples, so you don't have people loitering in the Lutz corners and stuff. The FS rink is the NHK rink. The public session stuff is the Olympic rink.

[blue111moon]

Since most of the clubs I frequent are smaller ones, it's hard to find ice that isn't open freestyle. The general rule is that the better the skater you are, the more you must look out for the less advanced ones (you were one of them once and somebody else looked out for you!).

Most sessions have other rules - designated spin section, crossover circles, three-turn line. etc. - and people tend to observe them pretty well.

But it all depends on the dksting director or manager. If they don't see it as a problem, then they aren't going to change things. Moving to another rink might be your best bet.

[BABYSKATES]

Originally posted by blue111moon
...The general rule is that the better the skater you are, the more you must look out for the less advanced ones (you were one of them once and somebody else looked out for you!)...

Every skater on the ice is responsible for watching for ALL other skaters on the ice. The more advanced skaters need to be courteous and give the right of way to less advanced skaters doing their programs. They need to be careful not to run over those who are not as fast as they are but who also need to practice their freestyle skills. Still, every skater on freestyle should be able to "hold their own" while on the ice. It isn't on the more advanced skaters to watch out for the little ones while the little ones act as obstructions. Freestyle sessions are for freestyle skaters. Skaters pay extra for freestyles so that they can work their advanced skills, skate fast and run their programs. It's one thing to have to "look out" for the less advanced skaters and quite another to have to dodge people, abort jumps and never get a full runthrough of your program because beginners aimlessly wander into your path.

The expectations on public sessions are quite different. On public, you expect people not to have skills to get out of the way so advanced skaters have to watch out for the public skaters and there is no right of way afforded them to practice their freestyle skills. On the other hand, the expectation on freestyle is that the skaters there will be freestyle level skaters with the necessary skills to allow others to work on their freestyle skills. People who are unable skate fast enough or move out of the way when they need to for whatever reason, should not be on freestyle sessions at all. (This includes highly skilled skaters who skate like it is their private ice, IMHO)

Originally posted by blue111moon
...Moving to another rink might be your best bet.

We are fortunate that there are several other rinks that we can and do utilize. These rinks seem to run better and there isn't the endless parade of beginners on freestyle. We are fortunate to have the coaches we want and those coaches only coach at the facility I was talking about. I'm hoping things can be fixed there. That rink is my daughter's home training rink so we will not soon be leaving. I am continuing to look for solutions. I'm not just griping. I'm trying to change things.

[dooobedooo]

Many UK rinks have a minimum standard of Level 1 for majority of training ice, although this is flexible for teaching purposes. (Level 1 is the first serious test - program and elements with waltz jump, salchow, upright spin, foward and backward crossovers, mohawks, three-turns. Dance equivalent is Rhythm Blues and beginner Foxtrot movement).

However, my experience is that skaters tend to "self-select" an appropriate level of training ice - for example, the really tiny tots use the Saturday and Sunday lunchtime sessions; the slightly bigger kids use the after school / tea-time sessions; the next step up is early morning just before school; then the really serious skaters start coming in earlier and earlier to get faster ice. A successful dance couple used to come in at midnight (after hockey practice) and practice all night until 5 in the morning, doing their own re-surfaces - they had the ice to themselves! A top solo skater used to have advance warning of cancelled hockey sessions, and again had that ice almost to herself.

But you do need to timetable training ice to a degree - after canvassing opinion from skaters and parents, the person to discuss it with is the senior coach, in the first instance. Perhaps the "tots" could have a couple of half-hour after-school sessions per week to start with. Or perhaps they could have a "coned-off" section of the public session.

[blue111moon]

Babyskates Mom,

My point is that the rink management is responsible for setting and enforcing rules. It's up to them to determine who can skate on any session. From your descriptions, it seems that rink management has allowed this situation to develop and probably isn't interested in changing things either, most likely for monetary reasons. Therefore your options are few: you can enlist all the parents to present their complaints to the folks in charge and request changes, you can attempt to talk to the skaters, coaches and parents yourself and convince them to change their behaviors or schedules, your skater and coach can learn to work programs and elements around the others on the ice, you can switch to another or time that might not be so chaotic or you can move to another location entirely.

Currently I'm skating on a session that includes skaters from age 3 to Dinosaur-Me with levels from Just-barely-standing-up to Senior Moves. It's a little frustrating at times but we manage - or switch to a different, less chaotic time and day. At my home rink, if the session is run by the rink, they call it freestyle only to distinguish it from hockey-only sessions. There is no level requirement, just that skater must be wearing figure skates or rentals. Sometimes they limit the number of skaters allowed on but not always. Public skating is for everyone: hockey, speed and figure, plus rentals. That's why the club buys ice, so we can set rules for our members, limit the number of skaters on the ice and control access.

BTW, I was told the "Advanced skater" rule by an elite coach several summers ago when I took some lessons on an open freestyle session that had been used mostly by senior level skaters. I was terrified of getting in their way, so scared I didn't want to leave the tiny corner. The elite coach (who wasn't mine) came over and assured me that I had paid for the whole ice and could as much as everyone else. I wasn't to worry and just do what I needed to do and "everyone else will get out of your way." And amazingly, they did! It was disconcerting for me to see skaters I'd seen doing triples in competition on TV yield to my wimpy lutz attempts - and call an apology besides! I'm also sure they were happy when I finished my series of lessons and left their session. :) But they understood that the rink sold the ice as Open Freestyle and that if the rink chose to allow lower level skaters on that session the only thing they could do was adapt. The coaches (all three of them!) also understood this and made it clear to the skaters just what the rules were. The one elite skater who objected was invited to leave and did.

The fact is more advanced skaters are more capable of adjusting, adapting, avoiding and aborting than beginners so the responsibility falls to them. Since then, that's the rule I've seen in most places, although the degree to which it's enforced varies greatly. It's up to the powers running the session to enforce it.

[blades]

8-)

reminds me of many years back when one of the local "elite" skaters (he competed in senior nationals) was a bit agressive and would sometimes scare others out of the way...

one junior skater complained to her mom...her mother told her to hold her ground...the next time "mr elite" came barging through, "miss junior" gritted her teeth and braced herself for the impending collision...WHAM!...no one got hurt....but "mr. elite" definately was rattled...(he was certain that little "miss junior" would move...after all...he was the all important big shot eh?)

funny thing...he learned that day how to share the ice with others who'd paid the same price for the time on the same ice...