Switching Coaches

[IceDanceSk8er]

Has anyone had any positive or negative reactions when you changed coaches? My daughter has had three primary coaches (including her current coach), and each time we switched, it was a bit messy. What kind of experiences has everyone else had, were they good or bad experiences, did you later regret your decision, or thankful that you did.

[lord farquad ;)]

I switched from my first coach to my present coach about 1.5 years ago and I'm VERY happy I did. I didn't progress very much with my first coach, with her my best jump was a waltz jump :P. After the lack of lesson time and not progressing with my old coach I decided it was deffinatly time to switch. So, I asked around who people thought were good coaches and I was recommended my present coach! Now I'm working on my double flips. My old coach and I still talk and everything too! So my switching experience was amazing!!! :)

[climbsk8]

I switched coaches a year ago.
I looked around for a few months before she quit, and I was actively approached by a number of coaches. Some asked me about working with them, some just hinted about it. That bugged me.

I ended up choosing a coach I'd known for years and grew to respect from a distance. When I medaled at Adult Nationals, I made sure to give credit to both new and old coaches.

The one thing that is CRUCIAL: be honest, and up-front. If you plan on switching coaches, call up the current coach and tell them your plans. Better to hear it from you than from the accursed grapevine. If giving them a reason for leaving is constructive, consider explaining your decision. Don't just jump coaches and leave the old one to wonder; that breeds animosity.

[dooobedooo]

Originally posted by climbsk8
... The one thing that is CRUCIAL: be honest, and up-front. If you plan on switching coaches, call up the current coach and tell them your plans. Better to hear it from you than from the accursed grapevine. If giving them a reason for leaving is constructive, consider explaining your decision. Don't just jump coaches and leave the old one to wonder; that breeds animosity. ...

This one is very tricky, and you have to make an assessment of your current coach's personality, level of committment and financial position. If the coach is very mature, and has built up a good business, you can discuss it with them up front; they know that if they treat you with respect at all times then this will reflect on them later, and you may even send more business their way at some date. However, if your coach has a childish or a desperate streak, it is better to very discreetly approach the other coach first and have a try-out before making the break. Holiday times and training camps are good for try-outs.

I did experience a situation a few years back, where I (politely) stopped lessons with my old coach. I was dissatisfied with the old coach, who was very charming, but lazy, a bit dishonest, and constantly pressurising me to have more lessons. I had a few lessons with a new coach, and we were getting on well) . All of a sudden, the new coach suddenly stopped returning my phone calls. I pieced together from other information that the previous coach had "seen him off". Some coaches see you as their own possession, and act like it, too. But it didn't work. I went to another rink for lessons (to a coach I still have) and I never did have any more lessons with either of the others.

[BABYSKATES]

My best advice is to switch coaches with great caution. Go for THE coach you want. My daughter was stuck on a track we didn't ultimately want for her because my daughter was very young at the time and we thought she could change coaches later, no problem. As my daughter progressed and her style of learning became more defined, we knew we needed a different kind of coach and one that had a higher level of experience. What we found out, even though we were very up front with what we were doing was that we had initially chosen a coach from the wrong side of the fence and we were not able to cross over to the other side.

Luckily, we moved a long way away. We didn't pick a coach right away. We had our child take a few trial lessons with the coaches that our observations and research made us feel were what we were looking for. When we did finally settle on a coach, we were sure that we would commit to this coach for the long haul. It has worked out fabulously and my child is getting the coaching she needs and desires.

I always tell people that there is no hurry to find a permanent coach. Be very careful and pick only when you are sure. If it is the right thing, it will be a good fit for both you and the coach. We couldn't be happier.

[climbsk8]

Boy, there are some coaching horror stories out there! Getting stuck with a coach "from the wrong side of the tracks?" A coach who can scare off another coach?

So often I think people forget who's really in charge: the parent and/or the skater. Coaches are, when all is said and done, employees of the rink and/or the skating family. Although many don't see it that way.

I took a lesson a few years ago with a new coach at our rink (my coach was out of town for two weeks) and that started a two-week war. I'm still trying to figure how it all started....

[Lili]

I haven't had problems with switching coaches, mainly because when I switched it had more to do with switching rinks than actual coaches. One of my coaches did not go to one of the rinks that I insisted upon going to, and therefore we decided to go our separate ways. I do not regret switching coaches, because I have finally found a coach who is a wonderful person, and a wonderful instructor.

[JD]

There are plenty of horror stories-ours included on what can go wrong:
We were the absolute most ignorant people about skating there ever was. We knew nothing. We fell into the best coach in the world-because someone told us they just knew she would be great with our daughter-she was. simply the best. but she retired 1.5 years in due to a life threatening illness. [she has now finally come back to the sport in the form of a judge]. So on her recommendation, we went on to the next coach-it worked ok I suppose, but it was two sisters teaching-very competitive with each other [therefore always changing the solos, technique on each other] and eventually, they told us they couldn't give our daughter what she needed and she needed a higher level coach because it seemed she could be destined for bigger things. This is where the real fun began-on the next one.

I can't say enough about this subject. We have problems in our own rink, I once asked for advice here, because there were issues with a coach at our rink, but nothing really like mine. But, there ought to be a manual. This is a very closed world and reputation is built on word of mouth-the catch being that if you are with a coach-you don't dare say anything bad about them for fear of what will happen to your skater if word gets back. So you rarely get the real deal when asking around. We eventually found our new [well not new now] coaches by asking out of section about their reputation.

So we asked about this coach. She was great, she was lovely, highly qualified, her girls did well in competition, they seemed happy....in retrospect, we asked all the wrong questions and found all the wrong answers. We should have asked her ideas about skating and child centred coaching, beliefs on coaching strategy, injuries, what do they do when a child is plateauing,where she sees herself in a few years, does she believe in true results, or just medals? Does she believe in nurturing, or not? All the questions we now ask and recommend to everyone. There is a national child athlete site in US-there is a questionairre-or used to be. We kept that-we made our new coaches [level 4's no less] answer a modified verson before we would even consider him-and we knew if coach wouldn't-wasn't the one for us.

Anyway, with coach three- we took her on. The first year went well enough-won everything in sight, there were a couple of minor issues, which we spoke to coach about, and my daughter seemed to be ok with her, but there was never a real bonding. It concerned me-knowing how chatty and happy she could be, adn emotional health is more important than winning.

But I thought we were still grieving the loss of coach number one, given that it was a devastating loss to her. Then, occasionally, we were overcharged for lessons not given- we accepted the "book-keeping error" apology. We started paying by cheque and writing the dates on. We had to keep correcting it. Then she picked up tons of other girls. And our daughter wound up getting lessons from others, but everytime the coaches succeeded with her, back came our coach out of her own lesson with another, to interfere and take her to a lesson. Jealousy anyone??? (smile)

Year two starts. Things aren't going as well as we'd like. Nasty comments start-wrong technique going on-comments such as "you're too weak", "you may as will quit skating", etc. If we didn't stay at the rink she wouldn't get her complete lessons-but we'd still get billed. And then the pitting skaters against each other, to the point mine was being bullied by one younger and not necessarily more talented but who thought she was just the new golden girl/cat's meow, whatever you would call it. [at nine with just now landing an axel,-not consistent, I don't see how--but I digress...thats another story... [whose parents each have a Mercedes-get the point??-and who told the coach "our daughter's dream is the Olympics and we have the money to get her there" giggle]

And mine constant tears in the bathroom. Coach is spoken to very strongly about her behaviour. We notice all the girls getting the most lessons from this coach seem to be doing the worst. Many are teary. No one is stepping in. Some of the issues are the same from girl to girl in terms of technique. Suspicious of technique issues, we tell the coach we are starting at a national training centre to supplement training and they need to do an evaluation. She's all for it. We go for an evaluation, they love her and accept her, but-the evaluation comes back with issues of taught technique. She isn't happy. She actively works against the training centre coach and causes an issue between that coach and daughter's artistic coach. Blowup happens. We think things are resolved. They aren't. Then coach starts up by deliberately giving our daughter a competition solo she cannot possibly win with, [by putting lots of jumps-earning deductions for more than required amount, no in betweens, and jumps she cannot do cleanly yet, earning yet other deductions] all year, she places last. Two weeks before a major competition, our daughter insists she is dumping coach NOW. she will go out on the ice alone if she has to. Coach is told, begs for two weeks to change. Comments that
she never really knew our daughter, didn't say X, etc, etc....yet was overheard by others doing exactly what she was doing. We give her two weeks-coach is extra nice to her-daughter decides she goes anyway.

Weekend before the major competition, we find out at the national centre that her solo has absolutely nothing in it-find out all her hard work and push to succeed is for nothing-they look at the solo and tell us exactly what is wrong, and exactly how she will place. Day of, daughter is crushed than for no other reason than she wasn't prepared-though we told her as gently as we could just prior to her getting her marks, and that we didn't want to distract her before that it wasn't fair to.

While trying to decide on another coach, after all this, coach sent her other skaters to ours to ask her who is coaching her. Daughter never replied. That woman's skaters are still always asking what she is working on, when she is passing X test, etc, etc....still does it, its ridiculous...

[by the way, what do you make of that part-the kids always asking what she's working on, when she is testing, etc????]

Oh, and when we finally did go to the new coach---she started telling all the parents of hers, as well as the coach we were going to, all this nasty stuff which was not at all true-lucky for us our coach ignored her, [he had his own run ins with her and isn't all that respectful] but the behaviour from others was ridiculous.

Being my law background and all-we sent a very, very nasty legal letter to the coach concerning tort law and defamation, as well as possibility of claims for damages being upheld, along with a comment about infliction of emotional harm on a minor, [ok, so we are human too, and she made it messy when we did not talk about the issues to anyone-we had been very concerned that the breakup look nice and professional to minimize impact-so much so that we waited almost three months before picking up any new base coach-not even the artistic coach knew until the change actually occurred-so much for tactful and diplomatic]...and for good measure, CC'd the letter to her on letterhead from a colleague's firm , and also to Skate Canada and to the section.....needless to say, she shut up. [BTW, the section and Skate Canada both sent letters of apology as well as a copy of the Coaches conduct guide-which was interesting]

We are finally now-too much time later, outliving the damage caused by this woman. What frustrated the hell out of us is that we paid this woman, invited this woman into our daughter's life, trusted this woman-for a time, and at the end of the day, she simply could not let the issue go. A skater is not a piece of property, nor is a skater the coach's roac to fame and glory. no matter how much one thinks so. It really bothers me that one can get in more trouble from being mean to a dog than it can be to berate a skater. What a shame.

Anyway, sorry its long winded-but we did learn our lesson. Everyone says be nice when you leave a coach-you know what, unless there is a neutral reason for the leaving-ie move, etc, then you are going to get it anyway if your coach is not professional to begin with. Although my integrity remained intact [well, till today's confessional anyway], the reality is that our choice to remain tactful so as not to scare off potential new coaches might have been a bad idea. I really don't know.

For those around here who know me, I am fairly knowledgable when it comes to my skater but---it took a while to get educated on this sport, I firmly believe being an educated parent who knows their stuff. What you do not know can really hurt your child.

Well, now that I've just aired half of her skating history-I am out of here....

:roll: :oops: ;)

[arena_gal]

Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate your candor.

So hey, JD, if I ran into you at a section meeting and we got to talking and I said naively that I was thinking of hiring Evil Coach, would you tell me the truth to my face or not?

We have a coach who won't let skaters go, they switch rinks, (meaning at least an hour's drive) in order to get away, but the coach still picks up new students because no one will warn off prospective parents. They're left to find out for themselves.

How can a parent warn off another parent without getting themselves sued, by the way?

[climbsk8]

JD, you have my compassion, and my respect.

I'm not a lawyer, but I can tell you this...the best defense against libel/slander/defamation is the truth.

I've had people ask me before what I thought about coaches at our rink. My answer is either "I would consider taking lessons from him/her" or "I don't really think I'd consider taking lessons from him/her."
No more details...you've said all you need to say at that point. Besides, that's an honest opinion, not a swipe at someone.

Besides, to be honest, I know a couple of coaches who probably wouldn't want ME as a student :)

Parents will ALWAYS try to pry for more dirt, but a nice, knowing smile usually keeps them out of the gossip trough.

[BABYSKATES]

Originally posted by JD
We were the absolute most ignorant people about skating there ever was. We knew nothing. :roll: :oops: ;)

Sorry, JD, that's not possible. We already have that distinction. :??
Like you, we learned - often the hard way!

[JD]

Arena-gal....

I've thought seriously about that in terms of future, and I would have to say yes, I would tell you if you were seriously asking me and if you were asking for my advice on hiring the coach. Its not gossip time-but if I truly sensed that you were looking for coaching, you were considering this person seriously and you were actively seeking my input, then I would certainly say something. I don't think its fair for parents who have had issues to keep silent-but trust between parents i.e running off to tell scenarios can obviously be a key factor for many. I'm not advocating a free for all gossip session, but disclosure would certainly save many children and their parents from heartache.

But I would not necessarily phrase it as here in terms of detail, particularly since here is a relatively anonymous place if you want it to be.

Aside from my personal opinions of the coach, I think everyone has the right to earn a livelihood. More than likely, I would probably ask you first what you think of when you are looking for a coach, and then tailor it to you from there.

You don't have to set yourself up for a lawsuit if you are able to be candid tactfully. Quite frankly, some people think this coach is just great, can't live without her. Thats their prerogative, I know what I want for my daughter.

It is possible to state that the training methods you as the parent do not find appropriate. If you are looking for the coach for your child-why don't you let the children chat about X? [as an example]. It depends, of course, on if the children in question get along. Children are far more forthcoming in skating than a parent holding a grudge might be, and-they tend to say what they think needs saying if someone else is considering them. Its pretty hard to sue a child for being truthful.

Here's my standard disclosure statement [giggle]:

I think I would say that we personally had issues with the coach in terms of certain [ remaining unnamed] behaviours and training methods that we as parents did not feel were appropriate with children, especially young skaters and that neither me nor my child in particular was prepared to tolerate it, and that the coach is well aware of our feelings on the issue.

A statement such as above should be enough to warn off any skater/ parent with huge warning signs and flashing lights that this person may not be all they appear to be. I know if someone warned me of that with this coach or any other, I would immediately move on. If pressed for details, then the person seeking them may be looking for gossip as opposed to real information. Most people are not that interested in little details when they become aware that there were issues, and that the coach is well aware.

Suitably vague but forthcoming positions are not easily sued on. Being sued for defamation, for those who don't know, also has to show some major relative harm. Its very difficult to prove. It also requires a coach who isn't afraid to do it, and/or has the financial resources to do so. [or a parent].

In our case, we would not have been afraid to-and we also had the resources. We're lucky in that regard. She is a child, so her major harm would have been emotional not monetary. We had credible medical professionals and other people, standing behind us on the issue.

Where a coach is concerned, it is pretty unlikely that a coach is going to sue, unless their reputation is so unbelievable [ie a Christopher Dean, Tarasova, etc] that they couldn't help but win.

Plus at least in Canada, as mean as this sounds-the reality is that we have a nice tax system for self-employed individuals. To prove some relative harm to a coach, they would have to show an economic loss. I don't know how many coaches, --and I might be wrong on this---would like to open their income and tax returns to public scrutiny.

I would not be so concerned about a lawsuit as I would be about the repercussions at the rink afterwards. Its really tough to handle. But then again, depending on how it ended for you, its not going to be any prettier if you stay quiet. I guess the question is, can you respect yourself in the morning??

But personally, I felt very betrayed by people I thought were friends who failed to tell us that this person was wrong for us, when they had themselves had her and moved on for similar reasons, as we found out later.

Anyway, the street goes both ways. If you expect tact and diplomacy when you leave, and you do get it, then treat the coach with the same respect. If you feel you need to tell upon request for advice, no matter how bad the break up do it nicely. There is no need to spill every wrong, every dirty secret or perceived slight. A simple statement should be all it takes to give the truly concerned skater or parent a clue that the coach in question may be the wrong one for you. If the simple statement doesn't work, then may I suggest that the person asking is just burying their head in the sand.

Just my thoughts.

[WeBeEducated]

Our experience was messy and the coaches showed anger, resentment, and took it very badly. we have switched a few times.
It always amazes me how adult coaches act...they need to follow higher standards and we need to hold them to it.
Many of them seek to make life difficult for any skater who decides to move on. I have heard coaches make cruel comments to skaters and their families simply when the skater felt they wanted to try a new approach/coach. I think when there is obvious skating talent and good competitive placements the coaches are even more nasty about letting them go.

[climbsk8]

I've said this millions of times before: when I'm looking for maturity within the boundaries of an ice rink, I usually find it amongst the 12-year-olds (and younger, even!)

Coaches can be cutthroat, even to young skaters. Many believe that they need absolute control in order to achieve success with a particular skater. That usually doesn't benefit the skater.

It's encouraging to me to hear so many parents on this board who place emotional well-being of their skater over their competitive success. Applause!

[arena_gal]

Originally posted by JD
Arena-gal....

I've thought seriously about that in terms of future, and I would have to say yes, I would tell you if you were seriously asking me and if you were asking for my advice on hiring the coach. Its not gossip time-but if I truly sensed that you were looking for coaching, you were considering this person seriously and you were actively seeking my input, then I would certainly say something. I don't think its fair for parents who have had issues to keep silent-but trust between parents i.e running off to tell scenarios can obviously be a key factor for many. I'm not advocating a free for all gossip session, but disclosure would certainly save many children and their parents from heartache.

snip
I would not be so concerned about a lawsuit as I would be about the repercussions at the rink afterwards. Its really tough to handle. But then again, depending on how it ended for you, its not going to be any prettier if you stay quiet. I guess the question is, can you respect yourself in the morning??

snip

But personally, I felt very betrayed by people I thought were friends who failed to tell us that this person was wrong for us, when they had themselves had her and moved on for similar reasons, as we found out later.

Just my thoughts.

I have lots of experience being the pro liason for the club (what job haven't I done?) and have heard very many sob stories of nasty coaches (the same few names always) and the question I ask the parent is "how did you come to hire this coach in the first place" and the answer almost always is (if they didn't pick the first one out of the book) "I asked Mrs. so and so [insert friend name here] and she said to call that Coach" [I don't want to talk about why these coaches have the right to coach in our club, that is an ENTIRELY different set of politics]

Entirely word of mouth.

I say to our coaches sometimes, "do you know that your reputation is dependent on those parents sitting up there?" and some of them are really oblivious of it, that parents talk and share information. We have one coach that gets freaky if parents talk about coaching fees because, well, I'm not going there, here. It is impossible to control what parents say, but for the most part I hope that they're truthful, and that if someone is a bad coach that they say so, but a lot of parents don't say anything and I wish they would however,

Parents are afraid of repercussions against their child.

That shouldn't happen but it does. Coaches get hired to run pop carnivals, and Suzy ends up as the back end of the horse.

[tazsk8s]

JD, what a horrible story. The woman sounds like a complete nightmare.

Unfortunately, there are too many coaches like that out there. Jr's best friend skated for awhile, got mixed up with a coach like you described, and ended up quitting entirely. Said coach had many promising young skaters, including medalists at Jr. Nationals and the lower levels at "big" Nationals, but was very heavy-handed. "My way or the highway." Her students' parents were explicitly ***not*** allowed to talk to any parents other than her other students' parents. That seemed to trickle over to the kids as well. I could tell a lot of things I heard from Jr's friend's parents, or witnessed myself, but it just isn't worth it. Suffice it to say, over the past couple of years all but one of her students has dropped her due to her heavy-handed-ness. I know I wouldn't ever consider this woman for my daughter due to her previous "baggage".

We have been extremely fortunate so far not to have had any horror stories like that ourselves - Jr. is on her third coach, but none of the changes were of our doing. First coach moved away, second coach left to have a baby. Jr. now has a primary coach that we are pleased with. It was at her suggestion that Jr. works with a secondary coach, as well as a third coach who works on power and stroking. It takes a good coach, I think, to recognize that a skater might sometimes benefit from a different person's perspective and to act on it.