does not having a lot of boy skaters "hurt" boys?

[gardana]

When I say boys, I mean boys-and not adult male skaters.

Anyway maybe some of you can spread some light on the topic. In American skating there are way more girls than boys. Are boys at a disadvantage because there are not a lot of male skaters to skate against?

[sonora]

I think so.

First, there's the gay thing. I'm not saying it's bad to be gay, in fact I feel quite the contrary. But it can be quite difficult for a young boy or male adolescent to get comments about his sexuality. All boy skaters get them, whether they are effeminate or not, whether they are gay or not. Very tough, to get teased like that.

Second, there's the "push" thing. If you are a boy, you will likely be faster than the girls at your rink, without as much effort. As boys come into their power they can lap girls. If you are the only boy, and the fastest skater and highest jumper at your rink, you may rest on your laurels a little too much. It's hard to find non-quals with big groups of boys to compete against, so you will often be put with the girls, or be competing against one other girl, or against the dreaded "book", or be relegated to doing an "exhibition."

Third, there's the pair/dance partner pressure. Yes, it may seem nice to be a boy, fending off offers, from the point of view of a girl with no one to skate with, but trust me. It's not that great. And if you do pick a partner at your home rink, the other (unpicked) girls will be jealous. Some of them, anyway. This can lead to more resentment, teasing and unhappiness. Someone is always after you to try out. Your mom, her mom, the coach, your "friends", it's a lot of pressure. Sometimes you just want to skate and be alone.

And then there is just the camaraderie thing. Adolescent girls giggle, and trade make up, and wear each other's skating dresses, etc. As mean as girls can be to one other, there is still a kinship there that a lone boy at a rink doesn't get.

And what is worse than no other boy? One other boy who is considerably younger, older, less geeky, more geeky, or for whatever reason someone you don't want to hang with. People will push you into being friends with the other boy. Liek you get pushed into hanging out with the one cousin your age at the family reunion? Horrible!

[gardana]

Sonora, you said almost everything I was thinking when I thought about this topic.

First there is the perception that male skaters are gay(especially single skaters.) Like you said, this could discourage a boy(whether he's gay or not) to not skate.

When it comes to the competitions I feel that boys are somewhat at a disadvantage. I realize most of the comps are just for fun and 90% of the kids are just skating at the club level and nothing more. However, having as many opprotunities to skate against others will only help you get better.

When it comes to skating against girls in a competition, there is probably nothing worse for a ten year old boy than to be beaten by a girl!!!(Remember this is at the height of the infamous cootie period).

Your thoughts about the pair skating was very interesting. Generally, I thought boys would be at an advantage because there are so many girls to choose from(somehow that did not come out the way it should have...)

Of course it is nice that there are opprotunities for boys to skate. I just wish a becoming a skater was as acceptable as becoming a soccer player and that there are more chances to compete.

[sonora]

Oh, Gardana, I had forgotten about the getting beaten by a girl thing!

That is yet another degree of awfulness in the life of the boy skater!

[batikat]

I have two kids that skate - one boy , one girl, so I see both sides of this.

Yes it is more difficult to progress to some degree when you have no-one of a higher level to compete against in your rink (they also pair skate and are the only pair at the rink so I know this side of it too). But on the other hand when the boys solo skate against the girls, in my experience they invariably win, or at least medal, so being beaten by a girl is a fairly rare occurance - and how do you think the girls feel having to skate against boys (where comps are combined) knowing that they have very little chance of the gold when they are up against a boy? This happened to my daughter recently and while she was the best girl skater she only got the silver medal.

Also the boys in the club always get picked for interclub competitions - get good parts in the pantos, etc., because there are only a few of them, whilst the girls have to fight it out between dozens of them.

When the boys go to Open competitions they almost always get a medal of some sort even without much effort (talking about my son here! not implying boys in general don't try!!) because there are often only 3 or less competitors. At the same level the girls competition may have 20 or more competitors - tough to medal out of that lot!!

While boys still have to reach the required standard for national championships they don't have to then do qualifying rounds as the girls do to whittle down the numbers.(in UK anyway)

The gay thing is unfortunate - luckily my son is a pretty strong character and also plays rugby on the school team, football, basketball and the electric guitar! It is a big problem though and we really need to find ways of encouraging more boys into the sport and dispelling the poor image it has has amongst boys - any suggestions??

One thing that helped him was the fact that some boys from his school came to a public session right after the patch he was training on. They were early enough to see him do spins and big jumps and were pretty impressed - the teasing stopped because he got them to try and they realised how hard it was.

I understand your comment about being pressured into skating pairs or dance too. My kids did pairs together as they happend to be of appropriate sizes/ages and their coach thought it would be fun for them and they could get to the championships (which they did). For my daughter this was great - she would never have been able to skate at Championship level solo as there is too much competition. For my son not so great as he is better than her and felt he was being held back a bit. However he is not that competitive-minded on his own so probably would not have gone to Championships without the pairs opportunity either. And there are an awful lot of girls who would love to have the chance to try pairs, or couples dance but will never be able to because there aren't enough boys.

Anyway like most things it is swings and roundabouts - you win some you lose some but the answer I guess is to get more boys into skating. The question is - How?

So to you boys who do skate - what got you interested and what keeps you skating??

[arena_gal]

Not having a lot of boy skaters doesn't hurt boys, but I think that they don't stay in the sport as long. Girls get into skating and for the most part, once they realize that they're not going to be in the competitive stream stay in skating for the friendship - that's one reason why synchro is so huge. Boys realize pretty quickly what they can and can't do, and the jump skills required to be competitive is at a higher level than girls.

[dani]

Originally posted by batikat
The gay thing is unfortunate ... It is a big problem though and we really need to find ways of encouraging more boys into the sport and dispelling the poor image it has has amongst boys - any suggestions??


It is sad any time that people are misunderstood. This happens any time someone is thought to be something they are not. However I personally think that you make the situation worse by calling it a "poor image". That implies a definate judgement without doing anything to challenge the correctness of it.

Out of the kids at either of my rinks I have seen no indication that any of the boys are gay and for some I see active evidence that they are not. That is an education message that could and probably should be given to the general public. In fact I honestly don't know how an "out" teenager would fare which is incredibly ironic!

Hugs,
Danielle

[sonora]

I think we have two messages here.

First, not all boy skaters are guy.

Second, it is not bad to be gay.

It is hard to send both messages at the same time without seeming somewhat contradictory.

Mike Piazza the baseball player was subjected to rumors that he was gay last year. He denied the rumors, while also saying that so what if he was? Why is it such a bad, scandalous thing to be gay?

We live in a society that still tolerates open discrimination against gays. Rick Santorum, for example, recently openly criticized gays, and while he took some flack, he is not losing his office or any of his leadership positions as a result.

Gay sex is still illegal in many states.

Gay parents are still discriminated against in custody battles.

Gays are still not allowed to marry.

Okay, I will quit preaching here! But all this homophobia makes it hard for the boy skater, straight or gay.

[batikat]

OOps - I think my point was misunderstood. I am not saying all boy skaters are gay or not gay, nor that it shodul matter either way - merely that it is a widespread misconception that unfortunately seems to affect the way other boys view the sport - not me personally. I did not mean to link gay and poor image in any way. The unfortunate thing is that anyone should make assumptions and judgements about anything, sport or otherwise, based on sexuality but sadly, this does happen.

Skating does though have a poor image amongst boys - what I am asking is what we can do to improve it's image - it is seen as a rather girly sport because it is dominated by girls, so I would be interested in any ways of encouraging boys - of any and all sexual orientations to participate and to continue. That way the point made about girls continuing due to the friendships made and social side could apply to some extent to boys too but it doesn't now because there are too few boys.

I certainly did not mean to offend anyone!

[sonora]

Batikat, no, you didn't offend me. I just think it's hard to make the point that male skaters get teased for being gay while simultaneously making the point that there's nothing wrong with being gay.

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by batikat
OOps - I think my point was misunderstood. I am not saying all boy skaters are gay or not gay, nor that it shodul matter either way - merely that it is a widespread misconception that unfortunately seems to affect the way other boys view the sport - not me personally. I did not mean to link gay and poor image in any way. The unfortunate thing is that anyone should make assumptions and judgements about anything, sport or otherwise, based on sexuality but sadly, this does happen.

I don't know if it is sexuality, per se, especially amongst younger boys. It definitely is an image problem. My 8 year old son wanted to try figure skates. He does axels and flying camels in the living room, and likes watching the sport on tv and occasionally at the rink. So I took him out on a public session, lightly populated, on a weekday when his school was out and most others were not. He had fun, doing 2-foot spins and waltz jumps - mind you this was his first time ever on figure skates.

Then another boy his age showed up in hockey skates (nobody my son knew) and my son immediately said he wanted to go put on his hockey skates. I really think it was because he didn't want that other boy (hockey player) to see him in figure skates because that's too, well, girl-like.

Since he really doesn't understand homosexuality (and I've told him that it shouldn't be an issue anyway when he has asked), I doubt that was a concern for him - looking "girly" was. Kind of like it's ok to play with dolls if they're called GI Joe but not if they're named Barbie & Ken.

Edited to add that my son has a girl on one of the teams in his hockey league, and he doesn't think that girls should be playing hockey (I said why not?). So the image problem goes both ways between figure skating & hockey.

[batikat]

Originally posted by sonora
it's hard to make the point that male skaters get teased for being gay while simultaneously making the point that there's nothing wrong with being gay.

I totally agree - that's what I was trying to say - but didn't do it very well.
If everyone understood there is nothing wrong with being gay we would not have a problem of getting boys into a sport that has that perception in the minds of the public at large. It may not be a correct assumption but it is there.

Teenage boys have a delicate psyche and whatever their personal views on the subject they do get subjected to teasing and that does have an effect on whether they want to continue in the sport.

At the beginner levels there are almost equal numbers of boys and girls but at the higher levels there is huge dropoff in numbers of boys and it does tend to coincide with the onset of adolescence. Many boys are steered towards the supposedly 'manly' sport of ice hockey and those that stick with Figure skating have to be mentally tough to cope with the uninformed attitudes of those around them. Even my own normally enlightened husband was guilty of feeling that his son 'should' be playing ice hockey instead - particularly after spending time at his companies head office in Canada, where he endured much ribbing over that fact his son was a figure skater.

It's not right but it happens - what can we do?

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by batikat
It's not right but it happens - what can we do? Get more adult men involved! I'm lucky that Robert and I skate as a team, and I know several husbands who partner their wives. One couple I know even play hockey as well as being rather better dancers than we are (they have beaten us at least 3 times, to date!).

But it's not only skating themselves - many of our skaters are brought by their fathers, to the weekend sessions, at any rate. That helps, too, I think. As do a plethora of male coaches, especially husband-and-wife teams (and there are several of those around).

:D I am reminded of my first competition. My mother came and watched. In solo dance, the sexes compete against each other even though (sometimes) the men have easier steps. One man came third in his class, and my mother commented, drily: "Oh, just like the Pony Club; they always give the men/boys a medal if possible, to encourage them!"

Obviously skating isn't the only sport in which girls outnumber boys!

[flippet]

Originally posted by Mrs Redboots
Get more adult men involved!


You may be on to something, there. Adults can take the 'heat' of any teasing better than kids, usually, and if boys see more adult men in figure skates, it may help them to withstand teasing themselves....who cares if those adults have just started skating! Just having a visible role model who proves that skating isn't 'sissy', because men do it too, could be very helpful. Getting more fathers involved in at least being the parent in the stands could also help--just to show both their own kids, and other families, that it's also not 'sissy' to support your children, whatever their gender, in their endeavors.


Pair that up with stamping out homophobia in general, and it all could go a long way towards expanding the sport.

[TashaKat]

Originally posted by flippet
You may be on to something, there. Adults can take the 'heat' of any teasing better than kids, usually, and if boys see more adult men in figure skates, it may help them to withstand teasing themselves....who cares if those adults have just started skating! Just having a visible role model who proves that skating isn't 'sissy', because men do it too, could be very helpful. Getting more fathers involved in at least being the parent in the stands could also help--just to show both their own kids, and other families, that it's also not 'sissy' to support your children, whatever their gender, in their endeavors.


Pair that up with stamping out homophobia in general, and it all could go a long way towards expanding the sport.

ITA BUT .... (and I've heard this from young boy skaters) ..... WHY OH WHY do a lot of the adults insist on wearing those dreadful skating trousers? If ONE thing puts off a lot of the younger skaters it is the outfits that they perceive that they have to wear!! Most girls are quite happy to wear a skating outfit but those dreadful trousers (especially the shiny ones) with the seam down the front are just YUK!

I also have to agree with Batikat, the boys (certainly at some of the tests/comps I've seen) do seem to get an easier ride on occasions. I have seen girls fail the same test as a boy who has passed when the boy has been OBVIOUSLY not as good as the girl ..... (does that make sense? I've been working at the stables all weekend and am in a trance like state at the mo ;) ). We have to encourage more boys into the sport but letting them off lightly doesn't do anyone, especially the skater, any favours.

[jp1andOnly]

my dad hated it when my brother decided to continue in figure skating. He would never come to the arena. Then he saw my brother do his prelim freeskate and he realized that my brother was good. Well, lets just say after that he took a much bigger role.

[batikat]

Originally posted by TashaKat
..... WHY OH WHY do a lot of the adults insist on wearing those dreadful skating trousers? If ONE thing puts off a lot of the younger skaters it is the outfits that they perceive that they have to wear!! Most girls are quite happy to wear a skating outfit but those dreadful trousers (especially the shiny ones) with the seam down the front are just YUK!



Actually my son (14 now but started skating at 10) quite likes his Lycra skating trousers!!! They are not the shiny, shiny Lycra but they are Lycra but he wears them quite baggy and with various 'cool' tops. What neither he nor I can bear to watch - and this goes for Olympic level skaters too - is the ones who wear Lycra catsuits -no! no! no! I have yet to see a guy who looks good in an all in one catsuit - well maybe Yagudin could. He also refuses to wear the leotard-like boys tops - with the bit that goes between the legs.:oops: This makes finding competition outfits difficult but now I make them myself and find a way of fastening the top to the trousers - or to bike shorts worn underneath.

You can now get some very good Lycras that mimic 'real' fabric which are an improvement.

One of the boys at our rink had some made to look like jeans, which was very effective and quite a few of them wear other types of sports trousers. Unfortunately there is not much else that has the stretch necessary to make skating possible - try doing a split jump in jeans!

It's not necessary though, until they are at a level of starting to take national level tests and up til then most (as my son did) wear ordinary baggy trousers.

I agree with jp1andonly and others who mentioned getting fathers involved - this would be a VERY GOOD THING both on and off the ice. Especially getting fathers of boys to be supportive. Unfortunately my husband finds it quite terrifying to watch (especially when the kids do their pairs - too dangerous he says - and to think people say ice hockey is the tough sport!), and he does need to be 'encouraged' to be proud of his son and his skating accomplishments.

It can be more difficult for men to be there for after school patches and those that do can be put off by the 'gossipy rink mums' (OK - wild generalisation there). It is a pity more schools can't get involved and bring kids as part of P.E.

Good Luck to all male skaters out there!

[skateflo]

I have followed this topic for many years and most of what you all have shared is quite true. In spite of the USFSA's effort to feature our male skaters, it hasn't filtered down to the local level enough.

Several observations made by others include, need for more male coaches and coaches needing to learn the vocabulary that boys understand and respond to...words that reflect power and ruggedness. Those rinks that do have male coaches involved in Learn to Skate programs have been able to get more boys involved in figure skating (even though the boys use hockey skates in their LTS classes initially.)

I think rink management and coaches need to work together to promote skating for boys, i.e., classes specifically for boys. It has been done and done successfully. Those female coaches that teach power skating to boys for hockey have learned the 'language.' We need to get more coaches to understand and use this language right from the beginning. And they need to understand the psyche difference in the maturation process of boys. I sometimes wonder if skating focused on the elements of figure skating that initially attract boys (like jumps and some spins) were highlighted more and then slowly work on the other skills (proper stroking, etc., more boys would possibly stick around.

Changing attitudes is a very long process, but it also starts (like many things) in the home and school.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by TashaKat
ITA BUT .... (and I've heard this from young boy skaters) ..... WHY OH WHY do a lot of the adults insist on wearing those dreadful skating trousers? If ONE thing puts off a lot of the younger skaters it is the outfits that they perceive that they have to wear!! Most girls are quite happy to wear a skating outfit but those dreadful trousers (especially the shiny ones) with the seam down the front are just YUK! Well, I know why my husband wears his - which are not shiny Lycra, he bought them by mistake in a jumble sale, and then forgot about them, and we discovered them some years later and they were perfect. Anyway, I keep wanting to replace them with more modern ones, but he insists on keeping the old ones because, would you believe, they are slightly too tight, and as long as he can fit into them, he knows he needn't be too fussy about his weight! He has to have a safety-pin to keep the zip up at competitions, and was once overheard to say, at a Dance Club night at your rink, Lynne, "Oh, it's a Foxtrot; I'd better do my trousers up!" Nobody has yet worked out what the connection was, and he has never been able to explain.....

[wannask8]

(Mrs. R., you had me rolling on the floor laughing hysterically at that last comment!)

-- wannask8

[arena_gal]

quote snipped
Originally posted by skateflo
I Those rinks that do have male coaches involved in Learn to Skate programs have been able to get more boys involved in figure skating

classes specifically for boys.

I sometimes wonder if skating focused on the elements of figure skating that initially attract boys (like jumps and some spins) were highlighted more and then slowly work on the other skills (proper stroking, etc., more boys would possibly stick around.



Yes, yes and yes!

Our club has a male coach who did privates, a former singles/pairs skater. Quite a few years ago he was hired as one of the coaches for Canskate. He demonstrated, on a dare, a triple jump of some sort. Quickly he had a boy student for private lessons. Now he has quite a few boys, and interestingly some boys have had him as a coach and have moved on to other (female)coaches - for the usual coaching change reasons. Skaters have moved into this club because of having a few boys. They call themselves the "black boot" club and act like proper idiots in the changing rooms. No one asks them to be a dance partner or whether they'd like to be a pair with Suzy. They're single skaters and don't get in their way.

(note, they'll be dance partners eventually, some of them come around after passing through the cootie period)

Thats how you get boy skaters. It starts with having a male coach especially one who jumps.

[twokidsskatemom]

I think alot of it has to do with parents who would rather say.. hey my boy play hockey. even if its only for 3 minutes.
My dh and I want our son to learn to skate. When he is older if he wants hockey, that is fine. if not, that is just as fine. right now he wants to skate with his sister together. we really hope it stays that way.They are cute together.I dont see abig thrill in having your child play hockey for 5 minutes a game when they could be out learning skills.
We have nothing againist hockey, in fact we go to the college games here.We live in a very very hockey town.Dh and I have been to pro hockey games.
But when we went to get skates for my 3yo son, you all know what they wanted to sell us lol.We told them nope he wanted fs.I had to order them online.They really pissed me off, I know its just the mindset.
a mom of a 4.5 and 3 yo skaters, who just started herself.

[IceDanceMom NW]

Let's also acknowledge that some rinks share the space, locker room, etc. with hockey teams. I wish the rink managers would sit down with the hockey coaches and have some straight talk about the hassles the hockey players sometimes give the figure skaters, girls and boys. Frankly, I feel it might be form of jealousy of the technical excellence and individual nature of freeskating. But my daughter complains that the hockey teams barge into the girls' locker room, and I know they hassled and teased her ice dance partner about his masculinity or implied lack thereof.

Hockey underwrites the expence of running the rinks in many places. In large organized programs, they can afford large blocks of ice, but when they arrive en masse, they overrun the rink and can be rude and cruel to the figure skaters. In contrast, I have been in some rinks where hockey and figure skaters were respectful and friendly, supportive of each other, and it would be helpful to hear from folks in rinks where respect is a basic principle of behavior. How is a respectful attitude fostered? Adults, coaches and parents, set the tone and need to monitor the situation.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by IceDanceMom NW
Hockey underwrites the expence of running the rinks in many places. In large organized programs, they can afford large blocks of ice, but when they arrive en masse, they overrun the rink and can be rude and cruel to the figure skaters. In contrast, I have been in some rinks where hockey and figure skaters were respectful and friendly, supportive of each other, and it would be helpful to hear from folks in rinks where respect is a basic principle of behavior. How is a respectful attitude fostered? Adults, coaches and parents, set the tone and need to monitor the situation. Here, as far as I know, there is great respect and friendship between the disciplines, largely because we all need each other. The rink has been under threat of closure - far too many issues involved to go into here - but an action group was set up to ensure continuity of ice. This involved representatives from all the disciplines, who had to work together, and got to know each other.

Plus, the sessions are kept strictly separate. Hockey has its ice time - largely weekends and Mondays - and the free skaters have other times. The hockey players complain even more loudly than we do if the ice isn't properly maintained, which works out well for us. Pucks and sticks are not allowed on public sessions. I don't know how good the marshalls are these days - I don't use public sessions - but there are good ones in among them.

Mind you, when I said to one of my hockey-playing friends, who used to be a marshall at a session I did attend, "Wouldn't you rather skate with a woman than a stick?", using a line that one dance club had used, successfully, to recruit more male dancers, he thought about it, sucked his teeth, and finally replied, "No; sticks don't answer back!"

One young dancer of my acquaintance, aged about 13, is finding himself inundated with pretty girls who want to be his partner. We tease him that he will always be "well and truly run after" if he goes on dancing - at the moment, he is just too young to appreciate it!