Need help with young student

[dbny]

There is a six year old boy at the skating school where I work, who has been with us for over a year. He is finally able to basically skate around without falling too much, and seems to like it, but he really has no other skills after more than a year. Part of the problem is that he started in very big hockey skates, but he also has almost no attention span and no sense at all of where his various body parts are or what they are doing. Several weeks ago, I asked him if he was OK when he took a hit to the knees and he answered me - unusual for this kid, who is usually looking away from where he should be looking. Anyway, I spent a little time with him and his mother asked me to give him some private lessons. I agreed to do 10 minute lessons, because I don't think either of us could stand any more than that.

Specific problems that I could use help with:

Helping him to orient his body properly: shoulders, hips, feet etc
Keeping his attention (maybe wear brightly colored gloves?)
Foot problem - his left foot is pronated (I checked it in socks only) but the skate leans out at the ankle
Getting him to use that left foot to push
Slowing him down


Any and all suggestions will be appreciated.

[sonora]

!. Get him out of hockey skates and into figure skates, if you haven't already.

2. Different colored gloves on each hand may help, if he is a little kinesthetically dyslexic.

3. Little boys often have a need for speed. How about a trade off-he accomplishes a task, then gets to race you the width of the rink?

4. Or, have him scull only with his left foot, then only with his right foot. Time him around a circle. Reward him when he can scull as fast leftie as rightie.

5. Good luck! Boys are tough, but they're worth it!

[pinkjellybean]

Hehe I've been in your shoes with two overly hyper boys at my club. I coached one but the coach of the other one and I often compaired notes. Make it fun that's the only way to get anything done and clearly state some ground rules at the begning... not to many mind you, but for example at our rink we have a red line that goes all the way around, gently reinforce that when youskate around the rink you have to say on the perimeter of the red line.

Atleast in the begining do not expect to do many repetitions. I'd teach one thing have him attempt it and his reward is skating aroung the rink, which he loves to do at top speed. If your kid likes the whole skate around the rink thing start building in elements. My boy loved to go fast but I would start to add in "skate boarding" on the ends which we eventually built into crosscuts, we also do sculling and sometimes he cooperates and does edges up the length of the ice... add in 3 turns etc but don't overwhelm them.

Building circuits are great ways to keep them interested. Use marker and or pilons to make the circiut if you can and then do a variety of skills... You can't get too up tight over form, etc... just make it fun, regularly other kids would begin jumping on two feet in one spot but with him one side of my circiut is jumping the length of it, then change it to jumping forward to backward and continue on from there. The best circiuts have variety and aren't rectangular or square, my kid calls it the race track. He hasn't settled down much but he has progressed at a great pace, I just keep evolving the skills until they are the proper element. I'm always trying to find fun ways of describing elements and something that really works is having him follow me, even around the rink where we race if it's not too crowded. Hockey lines are also a great way to practice and teach stopping and it's something he will do because you do the line really fast and he doesn't even realize that he's been practicing stopping for a couple minutes.

He is honestly one of my funnest lessons, even if your kid isn't as hyper as mine I still think you can use these ideas, it's all about not giving them too much and not having a stop and listen type of lesson, just keep it moving and you'll find you look forward to his lessons a lot. If youget stuck on something you can pm me if you like, sometimes it helps to talk to someone else if you get into a rut.

Good luck :)

[arena_gal]

Boys are like dogs. Single word commands and keep throwing the stick. Don't spend a lot of time standing and explaining, and don't expect him to stand still while you're talking to him, and break everything down into teeny weeny segments.

Don't slow him down. I wouldn't put him in figure skates either unless the parents want a figure skater. Teaching boys is totally different than girls and the motivations are entirely different also. It's amazing the stuff that my kids would do for a quarter for the candy machine. Have fun!

[CanAmSk8ter]

As far as the pronation, what kind of skates is he in? If he's in halfway decent figure skates, I would bring the kid and the skates to a reputable proshop, have them look at the skates on the kid, and see if they think moving the blade would help.

As far as his attention span goes, I think you've done the most important thing, which is keeping the lessons short. Other than that, my general rule for kids with short attention spans is no more than three tries of any one thing. Yeah, he's not going to learn it all that fast, but he won't get bored either.

[flippet]

My first thought, reading your post, is--what are everyone's goals? What's the mother's motivation in asking you for private lessons--what does she expect the boy to get out of them? What does the boy expect to get out of skating? And finally, what do you want him to get out of it? If everyone's goals aren't lining up, then some conversation needs to be had. If the mother wants the boy to "learn properly" and the boy couldn't care less about proper, but just wants to do whatever he already can, there's going to be problems.


It kind of sounds like the mom thinks that some one-on-one attention would be more beneficial, and she's probably right. My only suggestions follow everyone else's--keep it short, and direct, not too much explaining, more showing. Maybe physically moving his body into whatever position (check, whatever) he needs. Look closely for signs of boredom/distraction, and move on. And maybe try to find 'boy-friendly' names/terms for moves, to make him want to do them.

Also...does this child get any practice time other than lessons? If not, be sure you reinforce to the mother that private lessons won't help all that much more, if there's no practicing being done. Perhaps you can give 'homework'--maybe assign 3-5 repetitions of a couple of things, and make up cute homework sheets that he and mom can check those reps off on.

Ultimately, he may simply be too young/distractable to really get a whole lot out of lessons yet--he probably just likes the fun time on the ice. If so, he may find public sessions more to his liking than lessons--perhaps the family can try again in another year or two, when/if his attention span/ability to focus gets a bit better.


Sorry....I know that isn't really much help for you at all! :oops:

[*dani-skates*]

that kid sounds like my little brother who is now 9 but when he was 5 he was just like that. Some one else mentioned circuit training- that is exactly what we did. We would set up different drills for him and have him race us, it started just getting him to go forward and backwards then doing slalom between cones, things like that. To improve his style and technique we got him to go as fast as he could around the rink, he would get frustrated if he fell so he showed him how his body should be aligned a little at a time and now he is a great skater. Also teach the kid fun things that maybe aren't relevant like teach him a 2 foot spin maybe or pick him u and spin him so he sees what it feels like. These things helped my brother alot but my whole family helped- my dad is a coach and everyone in my family skates. My brother is now landing 2axels when 4 years ago he could barely skate so be patient.

[jp1andOnly]

my brother was the same way. He owuldn't stay with his group and his goal every session was to skate as fast as he could across the ice and then slam into the boards. He could stop but chose not to. Well. lets just say he's now been involved in skating for over 10 years and has just wrapped up his competitive career.

Circuit training might be a good idea. As long as the child isn't hurting himself or bothering others letting him do his own thing is not a bad thing. Bribes also work. I wouldn't put him in figure skates mind you. Whats the point. Hockey skates (if they fit properly) are just as supportive. Why make the mom shell out all that money if the child isn't interested next season

[backspin]

It's so funny that you posted this today, because I was just wrestling w/ a similar situation today!

I have a 7 year old girl who I've been giving private lessons to for a little over a year. She has ADD, & her doctor suggested skating lessons to help her learn to focus. While she has made some progress, it has been very slow, compared to the kids that come through my group classes. Some days she's better than others, but she is so distracted that it is very frustrating to teach her. Even when she does start to get something, like forward stroking or a 1-foot glide, half the time (or more), she trips over her toe picks because she's looking off in another direction at somebody else doing something. And in general, I don't like teaching little kids that much anyway--all my other private students are either adults or at least teenagers!

The main reason I haven't given up is that I like her mother very much, & really I like the little girl too--she's very sweet & friendly.

I still haven't decided--I cancelled her lessons for the next 2 weeks because I have other things I have to be at, but that will give me a little break from it. I'm hoping when I come back, I'll feel better about it. It's just no fun to have to drag yourself to the rink dreading a lesson. :(

So I'll be watching to see what everyone else says also. I certainly sympathize with you!!

[arena_gal]

Originally posted by jp1andOnly
my brother was the same way. He owuldn't stay with his group and his goal every session was to skate as fast as he could across the ice and then slam into the boards. He could stop but chose not to. Well. lets just say he's now been involved in skating for over 10 years and has just wrapped up his competitive career.


I'd like someday to take a poll of competitive male skaters and see how many have backgrounds like this. A lot, I bet. I dunno what it is about boys but if they get the right coaching and still are able to do their thing - look out!

A suggestion for ADD, ADHD, or sensory integration behaviours. Have the child sing a song or even talk to you while they're doing a task. I've seen this work, for some reason when the brain is concentrating on singing, the body is able to concentrate on the move. I've a kid that never shuts, up, the more he talks, the better he skates. yadda yadda yadda yadda, axel, yadda yadda yadda, camel, and so on. He's a lousy singer.

[garyc254]

Originally posted by arena_gal
Boys are like dogs. Single word commands and keep throwing the stick.

AHEM!!!!!!!

[dbny]

Thank you all for your suggestions. I guess I wasn't clear that he is already in figure skates and has been all season. The thing that puzzles me about the pronation is that when in the skates, his left foot bends out at the ankle; it doesn't drop in, as expected.

I'm delighted to have so many new good ideas to try, but I'm afraid this particular boy isn't ready for most of them. I do believe this child has some kind of sensory motor deficit, and I wish I were better equipped to work with it. I've tried positioning his various body parts, but when I turn his shoulders, all of him turns. If I raise or lower an arm, it lasts only until I let go.

I usually teach arm position by having the student imagine a big table at waist height, then stretch out their arms and put their hands on the table. I asked this child to imagine a big table, and he said he couldn't! I then asked him if he could put his hands on his belly button, and he did that. I had him stretch his arms out from there and he did understand that and remembered it at his next lesson, but once he gets going, he forgets about his arms. My husband (who is ice monitor in the practice area at the school) suggested that I try to position his shoulders off ice, and I think I will attempt that.

I'm going to bring markers and give him a course to skate next week, with circles around the cones. Any ideas of how to get him to face into the cone while going around it? This poor child can't even really follow or imitate very well. I'm hoping the marker path will help with that.

I knew I might be getting in past my depth, but I'm not ready to give up yet. As far as goals go, I don't know that the child has any, other than to continue to skate around. His mom noticed that he pushes with only one foot and that his left bends out. I think she wants help with that, and would like to see him fall less often. She told me he loves "this", and I know they never skate any other time.

More ideas please!

[pinkjellybean]

About positioning don't be afraid to get in there and hold his position while he gets moving. While he skates forward in a circle you could be right infront of him skating backwards and holding his arms in the correct position. Get in beside him or behind him if he's still small and literally hold him how he should be. Also, instead of having him try to viasualize the height he should be at show him where his arms should be in relation to your body, for example level with your knee or hips...

You mention trying to have him face into the cone when going in a circle. You could try being inside the circle..with that you could also be in the circle and make it like simon-says where he skates in a circle but must keep looking at you because you change the position and he has to imitate, like you could stand up tall with your arms out, or crouch down a bit etc.

If he's having problems imitating you just break everything down as much as humanly possible and take it slow. Eventially he'll get there and he'll keep trying as long as he's having fun.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by dbny
I usually teach arm position by having the student imagine a big table at waist height, then stretch out their arms and put their hands on the table. I asked this child to imagine a big table, and he said he couldn't! I then asked him if he could put his hands on his belly button, and he did that. I had him stretch his arms out from there and he did understand that and remembered it at his next lesson, but once he gets going, he forgets about his arms. My husband (who is ice monitor in the practice area at the school) suggested that I try to position his shoulders off ice, and I think I will attempt that. You couldn't do it to my husband, too, could you? His arms are simply terrible when he is skating solo! He makes his coach and me giggle when he starts his dances by standing with his arms outstretched, tidy as you please, and then when he pushes off he bends his knees - quite correctly - but leaves his arms exactly as they were, so that he does this sort of enormous flap, and I want to enquire whether he thinks he is going to take off..... And it's not for want of telling, either!

[flippet]

Originally posted by dbny
The thing that puzzles me about the pronation is that when in the skates, his left foot bends out at the ankle; it doesn't drop in, as expected.


That would be supination then, not pronation. He's in rentals, I assume? Probably a bad combination of natural supination, broken-down leather, and poorly positioned blades. I'm not sure what to do to help it, other than finding a stronger pair of skates to use. Maybe an ankle brace would help? That's probably more trouble than it's worth, though.

It sounds like you're doing more physical therapy than skating instruction, really--which isn't the worst thing in the world. It's probably helping the boy, at a lower cost than therapy would be, and probably more fun. It sounds like retention of concepts is an awful lot to expect, however.

I agree with some other tips--try not to just tell him something without also showing him, with his own body, preferably. It sounds like he needs to do something to have any hope of remembering. You'll probably have to make everything you do into a 'game' of sorts--the course is a great idea, but have silly names for each skill you want him to do along the path, or turn it into a 'story', where the hero starts out doing X, then has to do Y over there, then finishes up with Z at the end.

To get him to look at the cones, maybe you could attach a balloon head to a stick and put it inside? Draw a face on it or something, and tell him to look at Billy Balloon or some such thing.

Good luck...he sounds like a real challenge! :)

[dbny]

Originally posted by flippet
That would be supination then, not pronation. He's in rentals, I assume? Probably a bad combination of natural supination, broken-down leather, and poorly positioned blades. I'm not sure what to do to help it, other than finding a stronger pair of skates to use. Maybe an ankle brace would help? That's probably more trouble than it's worth, though.

Nope, he's in his own fairly decent Riedells. I had him stand in his sock feet for me and was surprised to see the pronation, but when the skates are on, it is supination. Could it be that the boots are too small for him and that's doing it because of pressure maybe? They did seem very tight when he was getting them on.

Originally posted by flippet
It sounds like you're doing more physical therapy than skating instruction, really--which isn't the worst thing in the world. It's probably helping the boy, at a lower cost than therapy would be, and probably more fun.

Thank you. That's actually encouraging to hear.

Originally posted by pinkjellybean

About positioning don't be afraid to get in there and hold his position while he gets moving. While he skates forward in a circle you could be right infront of him skating backwards and holding his arms in the correct position. Get in beside him or behind him if he's still small and literally hold him how he should be. Also, instead of having him try to viasualize the height he should be at show him where his arms should be in relation to your body, for example level with your knee or hips...
That's the kind of thing I often do, but it doesn't work with this particular child. The problem is that if I hold his arm, he turns to keep the same orientation, goes completely off track, and negates the adjustment. I even took him to the boards and had him stretch out his arms along the top (shoulder height for him) and turned his feet to the side. I held his torso then and asked if he could feel the twist there - he couldn't. I think I'm going to do that one off ice next week.

I'm also going to bring a pair of red and of green gloves next week, and we will each wear one of each so he can tell my arms apart and maybe match his to mine.
Originally posted by Mrs Redboots
You couldn't do it to my husband, too, could you? His arms are simply terrible when he is skating solo! He makes his coach and me giggle when he starts his dances by standing with his arms outstretched, tidy as you please, and then when he pushes off he bends his knees - quite correctly - but leaves his arms exactly as they were, so that he does this sort of enormous flap, and I want to enquire whether he thinks he is going to take off..... And it's not for want of telling, either!...

:lol: :lol: :lol: Oh, I wish I had seen that :lol: :lol: :lol:

My husband has sort of mechanical movements and often looks like a wind-up toy on the ice, in spite of his speed and super-human balance.

[Frumpy]

I help teach a 6 year old boy who is also difficult to control due to ADD and dyslexia. What works for us is a "practice, then you can play" method. I'll show him a move, and he trys to imitate it. We try it 3 times (if he lasts that long) and I tell him he's doing great. After he tries 3 times, we do one thing that he finds fun. He particularly likes me to spin him or "race" him the short width of the rink. Naturally he wins every time. Then we do the "practice" skill 3 more times, and the fun thing one more time again.

He's learned that if he really tries hard on the practice items, the more he gets to "play". And actually, the "play" skills are helping him get the sensation of actually doing the skill himself. He does a decent 2-foot spin now, and he can do a waltz jump. We pretend that we are pairs skaters and do "synchronized" forward cross overs holding hands, and now he does them rather well. (Back crossovers are a different story. Hasn't quite figured it out yet). He's been taking lessons about a year.

I usually spend about 10-15 min at a time with him, but I try to do 2 short 10 min lessons with him during the session. I usually work with him in pubic sessions so he can go play in between our little practice sessions.

Hope that helps.

[CanAmSk8ter]

That's really weird what's going on with the pronation/supination. I would still suggest bringing him to a good skate tech and seeing if there's anything they can at least try. I would also second whoever said that having him go to public with mom or dad once a week would probably help.

[dbny]

Originally posted by CanAmSk8ter
I would still suggest bringing him to a good skate tech and seeing if there's anything they can at least try. I would also second whoever said that having him go to public with mom or dad once a week would probably help.

I wish I could do that, but public sessions at this time of year require an hour's drive and a $7 toll. I don't think they are going to bite. I doubt that they would go to the trouble of going to a pro shop, as their goals are not any more than ordinary skating around. I have a hard time arranging pro shop visits with people I've known for years, and I just don't have the time or energy to go that far. I was hoping someone here had seen this particular problem before.

[CanAmSk8ter]

Originally posted by dbny
I wish I could do that, but public sessions at this time of year require an hour's drive and a $7 toll. I don't think they are going to bite. I doubt that they would go to the trouble of going to a pro shop, as their goals are not any more than ordinary skating around. I have a hard time arranging pro shop visits with people I've known for years, and I just don't have the time or energy to go that far. I was hoping someone here had seen this particular problem before.

$7 for public skate? Ouch. Yeah, for a kid with such a short attention span that *definitely* doesn't sound worth it.

I've had a lot of problems with pronation over the years. The older I get, the worse it gets. I have custom orthotics now, which help, but I still have my right blade shifted to the inside a little. Maybe when he gets his next skated they could look into whether having the blade offset would help. If he rotates his ankle the other way in sock feet, though, I don't know if it would. I wish I could see this- I'm intrigued now!

[flippet]

With the further information, the only thing I can think of is that the pronation is making the skate hurt his inner ankle--so to alleviate the discomfort, he's deliberately pushing his ankle out. I've done that sort of thing with new skates that still needed to be punched out. Ask him if the skates make his ankle hurt--perhaps you can help him tie his skates so they're not too tight there, or at the very least, suggest the baseball treatment if they're not likely to go to a pro shop to have the skates punched out.

The only other thing I can think of is that the skates are actually tied too loose, and he's overcompensating for the pronation.

[dbny]

CanAmSk8ter, LOL the toll is $7, but the cost of the session is also $7, and at that particular rink, everyone who comes in has to pay, whether or not they skate!

flippet, thanks for the idea. I think I will get there early next week and see if I can help with getting his skates on.

[dbny]

Just thought I would post an update after my last lesson with this little boy. I had forgotten that he was wearing thick socks, and that I had asked his mother to switch him to thin ones. Well, evidently that was important, because he wore thin socks and had no more supination. It's also possible that the director of our school had told him to skate supinated when he was in bad skates. I mentioned the problem to her, and she said "Oh, that's because of the old skates he was wearing!" Then she went over to him at the bench and told him it was OK to skate on the insides of his skates now! Guess I'll never know now. I'm going to tell his mother this week that I really don't think he needs the private lessons anymore. That particular 10 minutes really exhuasts me.

[dbny]

Maybe this thread should be moved to the new parents & coaches section, but this is my last post to it anyway.

I was all set to tell the mother that I thought her son really didn't need any more private lessons, when my husband said that he can see that the boy has improved. I went back today, and using red and green gloves and a lot of humor and games, we both had a pretty good time, and I do think I am seeing the improvement too now. His mother sees it also and is very pleased. I love hearing this boy laugh. On top of that, the mother of another little tyke has asked me to give her son private lessons too. Guess I'm now the preferred coach for the ADD crowd :lol:

[ddpskater]

My son (now 9) is easily frustrated and has ADD. One thing that worked well with cross overs (front and back) is when his coach has him "point the flashlight into the tunnel so he can see where he's going." Sometimes she give him something (like a big mitten) to be the flashlight. This gets the arms and the head and sometimes even the bellybutton in the right places!

[dbny]

Great idea! Thanks. Yesterday, I had a little one try to catch me with her "green" hand (my glove) to keep it out in front.