Crossover Connundrum!

[quarkiki2]

:?: OK. Here's my deal. I have been working on these forward crossovers since the last week of April and I still cannot get my feet crossed completely over. I am quickly approaching the point of frustration.

Here's what's going on: I am gliding on an outside edge. I pick up my outside foot and squeeze my thighs together. I set my foot down and I feel like it is crossed over, and it is, just not tightly. I may be straightening my back leg in the weight transfer -- this pulls my knees apart and makes it look like I didn't cross over. Though I am hugging the circle with my arms, I may still be standing up too straight.

Does anyone have any hints? I feel like all I'm doing is drilling them like mad with no improvement. I finally convinced my instructor to teach me something new -- I was getting too wound up trying to get them right and really needed to move on to something else, so she showed me backwards stroking.

I'm starting to wonder if my body is just not meant to cross like that -- it is not comfortable nor easy for me to even stand with my pinky toes together, even barefoot. I have wide set hips and slightly bowed legs and tremendous natural turnout at the hips, knees, and ankles. Would any of this make it more difficult for me or am I just searching for an excuse as to why I am unsuccessful with this very important skill?

[ChicaTica]

Hi!

Are you trying to do your crossovers on enough of an arc? I find that the biggest struggle newbies have with crossovers is that they are skating on an arc that is too shallow. Since crossovers are [i:61accb32ff]impossibe[/i:61accb32ff] to do going in a straight line, I suspect that this may be the source of your difficulties.

For example, if you are doing forward crossovers, right over left, you should be arcing to your left. Actually, now that I think of it I do have a technique tip for you: Your left arm should be behind you and your right arm in front of you. Make sure that your left shoulder is pulling back while your hips are "square"--creating a tension/torque between your left shoulder and your left hip. You should feel like your left shoulder and hip are pulling backwards and forwards, respectively. Also, make sure that your right arm isn't too far to the right, it should be in front of you tracing where you desire to skate. Doing this should pull you into a deeper arc and make your crossovers easier. I think you may be more successful trying to achieve this tension than you will be of thinking of your upperbody position as hugging the circle.

I hope this helps! I am sure you'll get it. Give yourself time.

Best of luck,
:) ChicaTica :)

--Edited for clarity.

[db]

Try doing a crossover in a full length mirror at home. This way you can see your upper body position and your feet also. When you have gotten the right pose, hold it and memorize what it feels like in each part of your body. Most of us really don't know where all of our body parts are in space, and mirrors are the fix for that. I did this for forward and backward crossovers and for spirals. It has helped them all.

[melanieuk]

Do you have to be "tight" with the cross? What do you mean exactly?

When I do crossovers my feet aren't close together because the crossover foot, although is crossed over, is still at least a foot (inside the circle) away from my skating leg. Then the original skating foot is being extended behind at to the side (outside the circle).


Remember to bend your knees as you push off.
Make sure you look in the desired direction of travel, and keep your left shoulder hard forwards and your right shoulder back for CW.

[flippet]

First and most important tip for any skill in skating...BEND YOUR KNEES.


You mentioned straightening your skating leg---you probably are doing that. If you can avoid that, it should help. Part of the deal is simply that you're a beginner...to do crossovers at all comfortably, you need to have well-bent knees and a bit of speed, neither of which come naturally to most beginners.

Advanced crossovers don't have the pinky toes anywhere near each other---it's not a natural position, and you're discovering that. Ideal crossovers consist of a 'sweeping under' motion with the inside (under) leg, more so than strictly a 'crossing over and setting down' with the outside foot. Unfortunately, you have to start somewhere, and the sweeping under requires some speed and not a little bit of guts at first.

Try this: along with hugging your circle, and firmly keeping the proper arms forward and back---and remembering that you're going to be crossing on a curve, not a straight line---SIT down into your inside leg and cross your outside leg further over. Try this on the ground, for stability first. As a natural consequence, the inside leg should end up a bit further underneath you.

Good luck...crossovers aren't the most natural movement, but they do become easier, it just takes lots of practice. I've never heard of anyone who couldn't do them with time and practice. :)

[TashaKat]

ITA with the others ESP the bent knees and making sure that you're on a proper circle, oh, and not having your legs TOO tightly together ....

Another 'tip' that I was taught was to bring the free foot in beside the skating foot, slide it down beside the skating foot, across in front of the toe and then down onto the ice. This way it's a smooth movement ... I always found the clumpy, beginner, hoike your leg across the top, put me off balance and greatly added to my trauma in learning crossovers (or that could just be me ...... I'm weird ;) ).

You can also try the 'one footed' versions .... let me see if I can explain .... cross your legs as though you've just done a crossover ...... and PUSH with the back leg BUT keep the legs crossed over! This gives you strength on the second push AND helps you to get the feeling of the cross without having to change position and 'normal' crossovers feel so much easier afterwards (just a note - it's HARD work, you may not even be able to move yourself at first so don't worry).

Good luck :D

L x

[garyc254]

When I was learning and whenever my crossovers take a vacation, my coach tells me to do them on a smaller circle than the one painted in the ice. Just a foot inside the normal circle allows you to get more outside edge before you cross and makes the transition easier for me.

After multiple rounds on my smaller circle, I go back to the normal circle and do much better.

Good luck,

Gary

[dani]

Hi!

I skipped pre-alpha and Alpha (and beta) so I never learned these the "right" way. I know that beta requires that the outside foot is actually picked up off the ice (which I believe is to prove that the weight transfer takes place).

The point of my comment is that I do "progressive" style crossovers. In other words I am really doing progressive run sequences from dance. Is this the ultimate goal or do I need to actually cross?

For anyone that doesn't know this, it is a great way to pick up speed and consists of putting your outside foot right beside (on the outside) of your skating foot and then pushing until your inside foot is quite a ways under your outside foot. Ok, that sounded weird, imagine right over left crossovers. When you are on the left foot, the right foot is set down beside the right foot and the left foot pushes behind the right foot. This really makes each step a push. (Can any of our experts double check my explanation? Thanks! ;-)

Hugs,
Danielle

[flo]

I think just about any body type can do crossovers (except perhaps a fish). Many people have difficulty when starting because they don't quite have the second push of the crossover. If you're on a large circle, to compensate and try to stay on the circle you'll end up on flats, and as someone has said, you can't do crossovers on a flat. So first start on a small circle and give the two pushes equal time. Also, make sure you are leaning and looking into the circle. My friend was having trouble with this last night so something I tried was to show him that I could hold onto the tip of a traffic cone (we had them on the ice to mark off sections) and do crossovers around it, keeping the circle obviously small and the same size. To do this you really have to bend your knees, lean and look in and both pushes have to be equal. For him the lean and bend around the cone would be too much, so I had him give me his left hand, and skate a circle around me. I rotated to always face him as he did this. He did then get the "feeling" of crossovers, and tried them by himself with success.
Enjoy

[Luenatic]

[quote:55b70880dc]First and most important tip for any skill in skating...BEND YOUR KNEES. [/quote:55b70880dc]

I agree, bend your knees. And also try to face and lean toward the circle. If your upper body is too stiff and up-right, it's hard to cross over. And, don't look down on the ice!

[Mrs Redboots]

Make sure that both edges are really good - it's so tempting to lean out of the circle, just to feel safe, but you simply can't cross your feet at all if you do that.

If I were you, I'd practice skating round the circle, making very sure that the foot on the inside of the circle is on an outside edge, and the outside foot is on an inside edge. Don't worry too much about crossing just now - it will come. But when you are comfortable on your inside edge, try putting your outside foot down slightly ahead of the inside foot - don't worry about crossing, for now - and then when you lift your inside foot up, don't just straighten it behind you, but bring it out of the circle so it is crossed underneath your outside foot. This is more like a run, or progressive, than a crossover (you'll need both, eventually, especially if you ever take dance), but it does give you a feel for what having your legs crossed on the ice feels like.

[OlgaG]

[quote:45e3336d5b="TashaKat"]
Another 'tip' that I was taught was to bring the free foot in beside the skating foot, slide it down beside the skating foot, across in front of the toe and then down onto the ice. This way it's a smooth movement ... I always found the clumpy, beginner, hoike your leg across the top, put me off balance and greatly added to my trauma in learning crossovers (or that could just be me ...... I'm weird ;) ).
[/quote:45e3336d5b]

You're not weird, and I'm thrilled to see that I'm not alone. I started skating last Aug. with the goal of passing pre-bronze moves sometime this fall. And while I can do forward crossovers the "leg across the top way" (with pushing under, and relatively decent speed), they sound awfull. Clunk-clunk-clunk (especially going cw). Finally, my coach said that this way I'd pass the move only if the judge was deaf, and suggested that instead I do crossovers in the manner you described (sliding the free-leg pigeon toed in front of the skating leg and really concentrating on the push-under). This way my crossovers improved dramatically in just two weeks. They are quieter and smoother, and I get more power from them (probably because doing it this way really requires that your knees are bent)

[Yazmeen]

A couple of other suggestions:

Look INTO the circle--Focus on the red dot in the center--it will keep you in the correct upper body position.

Make sure you rear hand (Hand on the arm behind you) is palm down, not palm up (I didn't realize I was doing that until a substitute coach pointed it out). You can help this by flexing the rear hand a bit.

Bend, BEND, BEEEENNNNNNDDDD those knees. The entire movment is a "Push (free leg extension), Bend (Bend knee of free leg and cross over), Push (Second extension of new free leg), Bend (Bend other knee to bring foot out to complete move).

A good exercise? What was suggested before--Cross the foot over and keep it there, with both feet gliding on the ice, crossed over. Its a great way to practice getting the edges correct, and its a pretty move too. I actually used it in an artistic program this year. You can do that with back crossovers too, but its more of a bear to do than with forwards.

Don't worry--you will get this. We all have our nemesis moves. I'm working on jumps and a one foot spin, but my LFI3 turn still stinks to high heaven; however, its coming, and I know I'll get it eventually. Otherwise, practice, practice, practice!!! And don't be in a big hurry to progress--you'll be into the next level and jumping and spinning soon enough. Take you time to learn things WELL. That's what I like best about my coach--we work on new things, but always go back to the old to improve those moves, and we TAKE OUR TIME. This is supposed to be fun, remember? Take the time to learn well and ENJOY skating!!!

I'll get off the soapbox now!! :P By the way, you are doing JUST GREAT!

Beth

[melanieuk]

Lynne ......did you manage to save any of the old threads about the differences between progressives and crossovers?
This would have been ideal for answering all queries here. :lol:

[Schmeck]

Hey, it was fun to read everyone's versions of crossovers - do we still have access to Rinkside FSC? Who did that page, LisaT?

Got to echo the main theme here, since it's my skating mantra :D

[size=18:48f63a4621][color=red:48f63a4621]Bend your knees[/color:48f63a4621][/size:48f63a4621]

That has helped me do so much - much better mohawks, and my beginner scratch spin is almost happening when I remember to bend my skating knee during the glide into the 3 turn.

It's great to have the supportive crew of Rinkside here!

Schmeck

[quarkiki2]

Hey, thanks everyone for the tips. I've written down everyone's instructions to take with me next time I practice.

Here's what's got me confused: my instructors (I don't really have a coach yet as I'm in Learn-to-Skate) don't want me to do the second push. I was slightly bizarre in that when I first started learning forward crossovers, I only did the second push. They really, really want me to do the "pick up the foot and set it down across the other foot, pinky toe to pinky toe" thing and it seems to not be working for me. Only recently was I allowed to add the first push. That's seemed to help somewhat.

I dunno -- I'm hoping to get to the rink today to try out my new skates, so maybe I'll try with the second push again. Or maybe I won't since it will be my first time out in my new skates and blades and I may spend most of the time getting used to the skates. Who knows?

[db]

With your latest info in mind, here is something else to try. Do three pushes, focusing on upper body position and smooth strong outside edges, then one crossover. Do this pattern repetitively around a hockey circle. If the second push comes naturally to you, that's a big advantage, because you won't be catching your toe pick when you pick up the crossed foot. If you can do the second push, see if you can hold that position with the free leg still crossed under the skating leg, which would be on an inside edge.

[quarkiki2]

Believe it or not, my crossover connundrum may have been a product of poor equipment. I think that, until Saturday when I used my new skates, I have never been on an outside edge. After I warmed up a bit in my new skates, I grabbed a circle and tried some crossovers. Well, lo and behold, my new skates gave me so much more support thatn the old ones (duh). For the first time, I felt like I could actually lean into the circle!

I think that in my old skates, my flexible ankles were doin their best to keep on firm ground and they would keep my skate on the flat. Now I know that's not the case and though I am still straightening my back leg after my feet are crossed, I can sure tell when I'm doing it. I think before my ankle was so wobbly that bending my knees made me uneasy -- now when I bend my knee, my weight is less forward (more centered on my foot) and more on the outside edge. This has caused a new set of problems, mainly because my weight is in a different place and, even though it was wrong, I was balanced before.

Now I just have to get used to my new balance and then I think I'll have conquered my crossover connundrum!

Thank you all very, very much. I may have more questions after my Tuesday evening lesson when I get feedback from my instructor.

Have a great day!!!

[flippet]

[quote:4ff4b5fd5b="quarkiki2"]Here's what's got me confused: my instructors (I don't really have a coach yet as I'm in Learn-to-Skate) don't want me to do the second push. I was slightly bizarre in that when I first started learning forward crossovers, I only did the second push. They really, really want me to do the "pick up the foot and set it down across the other foot, pinky toe to pinky toe" thing and it seems to not be working for me. Only recently was I allowed to add the first push. That's seemed to help somewhat.
[/quote:4ff4b5fd5b]



Good for you on new equipment! That makes a HUGE difference. As to the above...one of the systems, I think it's ISI, actually 'requires' that crossovers be taught initially (later, it switches to the 'advanced' method) by picking up the foot and crossing. I believe the wisdom is that it makes the weight shift more pronounced, thus 'easier' to learn. What it doesn't take into account are the few skaters for whom that's more difficult....the skaters who somehow instinctively understand the weight transfer (more or less), and for whom the second push is actually easier.

My advice would be to practice, practice, practice....however it works best for you. The quicker you can learn crossovers, the quicker you'll move on to the 'advanced' (proper) way of doing it, and you won't have to mess with the 'pick up and clunk yourself over' way. (I hated that, because to me, it actually interferes with weight transfer and balance---it emphasizes transferring the *weight* over the *feet*, when I like to think of it as keeping the weight in the same place, just passing the legs underneath it to keep it stable!)

[quarkiki2]

Well, I had my lesson last night and worked A LOT on keeping my upper body still. This seemed to make my right-over-left crossovers better and I'm pretty sure they'll pass the test in three weeks. My left-over-right seem to be about a week-week and a half behind the r-o-l, so I think they'll be there soon, too.

Seems that I need to keep my upper body still and my knees bent and then I'm fine. I don't know that I'll ever be pinky-toe-to-pinky-toe like they want for ISI, but I'm closer and will keep working on it.

I guess I was close enough that I started on back crossovers last night. I know that these won't be ready to test in three weeks, but I was thrilled to actually try them out. I need to work on backwards glides a bunch so that I'm more comfortable picking my foot up. But I feel pretty good considering that I only started backwards stroking last week for about 1 minute in my lesson and that was much improved in a week -- I went from not being able to pick my foot up at all to stroking backwards all the way across the short side of the rink. Hey, I was happy with that improvement, small as it may seem, LOL! And, ironically, it's easier for me to cross my foot pinky-toe-to-pinky-toe going backwards than it is going forwards.

Ah, well, I fear I may just be a mixed up skater all around -- my snowplow stop is easier on my right side, though it's easier for me to glide on my left foot and I seem to prefer to turn and spin CW, too. At least I always did in ballet, where my favorite pirouette is on my left foot, spinning CW -- essentially a backspin.

Hoping to convince hubby that we should go for club ice this evening. He hasn't skated for over a week and I want to keep conquering the crossovers!

[kidskater101]

Okay I might just be a kid but hey, I know what I am doing! Its very hard to see what you are doing wrong but I will tell you what I do that WILL defenatly help you! ok,
1. Picture your self on a circle (if you are lucky you will be skating on a hocky rink to so there will already be some) start skating foward and lean into the center of the circle
2. Place your right foot (if you are going counterclock wise)in frount of you left, and gradualy pick up your right foot and place it in frount of you.
NOT SO HARD HUH?
3. Continue this untill you feel comforatable and gradually put your right foot more and more over your left.

Wala! Your a natural now! so get out on the ice and practice, practice, practice!

[VegasGirl]

Well kiiid, did you notice the date on the post... I reckon you're a wee bit late with your advice. ;)

[Skittl1321]

Well kiiid, did you notice the date on the post... I reckon you're a wee bit late with your advice. ;)

Eh, don't give her too hard of a time- it's a common mistake on boards. Besides- I got some useful information from the thread because it was bumped- and since I wasn't particularly thinking about asking about crossovers I wouldn't have searched for it. So maybe reading the rest of the thread was useful to someone else too.

[VegasGirl]

Not giving a hard time at all... where's the sense of humor? 8-)

[whatwasithinkin]

I did my first crossover today! It wasn't pretty but it was a crossover! Wooo Hoo!

[NickiT]

I did my first crossover today! It wasn't pretty but it was a crossover! Wooo Hoo!

Congrats to you!

Nicki

[AndreaUK]

Im having problems with these crossovers also. Looking through some of the tips here I will certainly try and take on some of the advice tomorrow. I can cross my foot over but I feel so unsteady when I have done this. Also I am fairly clumsy with this manoever. When I move the free leg over to cross my left foot, it gets placed down onto the ice fairly hard.
grrrrrrr

Andrea xx

[quarkiki2]

Holy cow! I can't believe this thread has made a re-appearance! I go away on vacation and "the old me" pops up with a question!

It seems like forever ago that I asked this question... And so funny, really, because the last time I was on the ice before my vacation, we were working on progrssive style crossovers at Synchro practice and our coach used MY crossovers as the Good Example, LOL!

The advice here on this thread is excellent, so I won't add to it, but talk about a blast from the past!!! :)

[AndreaUK]

Well the advice on here certainly is good, id paid off for me today and I managed to do the forward crossovers in the ccw direction, gotta work on cw now grrrrrrrr hehehe

Andrea xx