too much too soon??

[nycbumpkin]

can a kid who began skating within the last 2 years, who is now age 11, be expected to land clean 2a, 3s, 3t? kid's coach thinks so, because they are close (have done rare clean 2a), but am wondering if too much too fast, also how hard is it on body?

[Mrs Redboots]

How can you legislate? All kids are different. It depends very much on the general level of fitness they have when they started, on how often they train, how much they practice between lessons, how generally athletic they are, and so on. If the coach thinks they're ready, they probably are. I think if you make sure they have a healthy diet, ample rest, and as long as they don't complain of aches and pains, they should be fine. If anything should be unwontedly sore, then it is best to have it investigated sooner rather than later.

[Elsy2]

This kid sounds like they are very talented and has progressed very quickly. We do have 11 year olds landing those jumps, although I think they probably started earlier. If this is your child, and you are worried about overtraining, I would do some reading on the subject, and consider limiting the number of triples per session to a reasonable number, etc. and work with his/her coach on this. Perhaps one session a day should be reserved for moves, etc. that have less impact. I would also be sure they are in a program of some sort of strengthening off ice, like pilates.

Injuries are more prone to happen during growth periods. My daughter is solidly in a growth period at age 15 and has had back problems that started around age 13. Because of this, we are on a schedule of evaluating her back every three months until her growth is complete, and we expect that to be 1 to 2 years after she started menstruating. So, when you notice growth spurts, it would be wise to be more aware and cautious of any complaints.

[vesperholly]

I would be worried not only physically but mentally. It sounds like this skater has achieved an incredible amount in such a short period of time, and might get discouraged very easily if they hit the slightest bump in the road of progress.

Kids progress very differently, but your skater has had exceptional progress. I think you are wise to look out for such things. Many lesser parents would get so wrapped up in their child's success they wouldn't care how it affects them. Also, a lot of coaches tend to get really excited when it's obvious they have talent to work with, and might go a little overboard in their expectations.

For a bit of perspective, most skaters aren't landing any doubles after only two years.

Jocelyn

[dooobedooo]

Can I just add "There is more to skating than just jumps"?

If your child's coach has got fixated on just doing jumps, you will need to find a second, supplementary coach to round out your skater's education, build all-round fitness, and to give more general overall interest and enjoyment. There is nothing sadder than a skater who can only jump and has no speed, power, edges, spins or tricks. And it makes your skating career much shorter in lifetime terms.

I have never known any children be doing 2axel and 3s after only 2 years. Your child obviously has huge amounts of natural jumping ability and this won't just disappear if it is not worked for a bit. He would need 2axel and 3s to win Novice Championships, but most of the other competitors will have been skating 5 years or more.

Is your child doing skating tests? These would be a good focus for his athletic development. Most people attempting 2axel and 3s are already very accomplished general skaters, with flying spins, high level moves etc.

[nycbumpkin]

well these are all things i was wondering about...kid has zoomed thru tests, too and only has a couple MITF tests left...was juv last year...came out of competitive gymnastics and ballet...has a very nice look on ice. But coach thinks jumps are within reach, and kid is balking a bit...wondering if it's too much "pressure"...maybe i'm using the "hard on the body" argument to give the kid an "out"...

I just read what I wrote and I need to clarify...kid is DYING to get these jumps but seems to be putting a mental block up somehow...should we encourage kid to "buck up and go for it"...as to background, kid has had a total of approximately 1 1/2 years private lessons, 1 year of which has been at a "good" rink...before all that, a couple of sessions of Basic Skills.

[vesperholly]

I would encourage your child to try their best, but suggest some different things to work on aside from jumps that could better their skating: dance, off-ice training, spins, etc. Emphasize that jumps, while important, are not the be-all and end-all of skating. If your child never lands a triple again, there is still much you can get out of skating.

When they compete (Intermediate/Novice?), they will be up against skaters with many years of skating, which will be reflected in their speed and security of edge. The latter is a HUGE part and time is the biggest influence. Edges can always be improved, and working on edges will HELP jumps - the more secure you are with a FO edge, the more secure your axel entrance will be. etc.

All skaters reach a natural plateau after a while. Some plateau on the axel, while your child seems to have shot right to the "big" jumps and then plateaued. Nothing wrong, just different. Working through the plateau and learning how to deal with plateaus is just as, if not more, important than the result. Very important lesson here. Watch your coach, do they emphasize just landing the damn thing, or are they teaching the proper technique no matter how long it takes?

A girl at my rink took the better part of three years learning/perfecting the double axel - I think over a year before she landed one clean. Slow but steady progress and she insisted to her coach that she wanted to learn it properly from the get-go. It's now one of her most consistent jumps and it's just gorgeous, too.

May I ask, son or daughter? Growth could play a part here.

Jocelyn

[BABYSKATES]

Wow! Your child has made great progress. From the experience I have gained by watching my child zip through skating (but not nearly as quickly as your child) I think that the "balking" you are talking about is what we are going through with the double axel. Your child has reached the truly hard stuff. My child never met a jump she didn't like. She never had a hard time landing any jump. All of her doubles came within a very short time. The double axel is a different story. My daughter has to work, think, fight and struggle for the first time. Obviously there is a great deal of jumping ability in your child. Now is the time where you will see if your child has the heart for skating. My daughter's coach says that this is where those who CAN get separated from those who WILL.

I agree with the posters who say that there is more to skating than jumping. I know a child who can land double axel and triples but she can't skate. She isn't having success, even against those who do not have her jumping ability. She is competing novice because she is tested up to that level. I think she will be junior this season but I don't think the understanding is there that she is limited by her inability to do anything but jump!

Do encourage your child but know that sometimes, at this stage of a skater's development, it isn't always fun. They have to love skating and want to fight for it with all their heart.


That is the reason I have nothing but respect for all of the skaters we discuss on this board. Success in this sport is very, very hard won.

[dooobedooo]

You do have to watch for possible burnout, and you are right to listen to the kid. Very unfortunately, I have occasionally witnessed burnout in talented children who were pushed to far and worked too hard, with a lot of adult expectations piled on their shoulders. They tend to look very sad and tired for a short while, and then suddenly refuse to skate any more. Nobody wants that. Ask your child, what would they like to do next in their skating? Is it time to spend a couple of months building an artistic program? Can they fit in their timetable easily with school and life in general, or are they skating all hours and "burning the midnight oil"? My personal opinion is that occasionally during the year they also need to take a couple of weeks completely away from skating, to recharge their batteries.

Babyskates' comment about 2axel and 3s separating "those who can" from "those who will" is interesting. I have heard another coach say "you can get up to doubles on natural ability, but it takes *brains* to get the triples".

The other thing to remember, is that even if it is a job, skating should still always be "fun".

[nycbumpkin]

...to answer one of your ??s, the child is a girl...and she would be HORRIFIED to know that mom posted a message on a skating board, if she knew there was such a thing :) ...which is why i was not eager to reveal anything particular including gender...as to size, not really teeny, not big, just average 11 year old...

...she did get a couple-week break at Christmastime...i wanted longer but she lobbied HARD to end the break at exactly 2 weeks, and moaned much of THAT time...and wanted to "work out" most every day at the gym anyway...after one week of "nothing" I gave in to that one...i have other kids and they are WAY EASIER than this kid...

...thank you so much to everyone who has responded thus far, your comments have really helped me to think (and even to feel better--just being able to "talk" about something with people who understand is such a nice & healthy thing)...

[Mrs Redboots]

I think that if you - anybody, kid or adult - are used to taking a certain amount of exercise, your body simply won't let you not do so!

I do think that getting "stuck" at doubles/triples is pretty common, especially for the younger ones. We adults know all about fear holding us back - the kids don't, and they don't quite know how to deal with it. One child I know took a break from skating for a few years, and danced instead - she is now back skating, and about to have her first professional engagement, although she is retaining her eligibility. Her sister wears pads all over the place - bottom, arms (elastic bandages), thick gloves.... and now has most of her doubles and working on her triple salchow (this child is a year older than yours, but has been skating a little longer).

It might be sensible to reduce her jump lessons to a minimum - perhaps once a week, or something - and focus on Moves in the Field (which they all hate, but have to be done!) or dance or some other aspect of skating for a couple of months. Or invest in a pair of "axel knickers" (padded pants), and see if that helps.

But above all, work together with your kid - if she wants to stop for a while, that's okay; if not, that's fine too - but how can you help her land the next jump? If she is really almost landing it, but just fear not letting her really go for it, a little bit of bribery-and-corruption can sometimes help: is there something she really wants, or a show she wants to see? Well, tell her that the day she lands a clean double axel, you'll go and book tickets. (This only works if she is physically able to do the jump, but fear is holding her back; do check with her coach first!).

[BABYSKATES]

Originally posted by Mrs Redboots
a little bit of bribery-and-corruption can sometimes help:

Mrs. Redboots, I am laughing so hard right now! I also agree that bribery-and-corruption :lol: can work when offered at the right time. We've been able to get just that little bit more oomph! when it was needed with tiny bribes. I think a little extra incentive goes a long way! My child loves to skate and really wants to learn. After working really hard, sometimes it's like she gets stuck. In the midst of endless repetition, she is trying hard but not quite maximum effort. The little bribes respark her efforts and she seems to be able to give things that additional push that gets the job done!

The thought of "bribery-and-corruption" will keep me giggling all day. Thank You!

[*dani-skates*]

I am 16 years old and began skating when i was about 2- my dad is a coach. By the time i was 11 i could land 3t and 3s and by the age of 14 I could rotate but not really land a 3t 3t combo. I love to skate so much and I would have loved to have done more competitively- maybe have gone to worlds one day but I pushed myself too hard. I hurt my back one day practising 3 lutz and I didn't tell anyone because I knew I wouldn't be allowed to skate so stupid me skated any way and my back got worse. This was about 2 years ago, I still skate but now the most I can land with out huge amounts of pain is a 2t which I have done since I was 8. My parents were careful with me and helped me but I still got hurt. Its not so much that I did to much to soon- i have solid technique and above average stroking, edges etc but I knew I was good and so didn't stop when I should have in terms of pushing myself. Let you daughter progress and become as good as she can be but be careful and make sure that if she is injured she lets you know or if she is tired don't let her skate. She sounds talented and maybe can go somewhere in the sport but one injury can ruin it for you. I love to skate still but I won't ever go to worlds or anything like that because I was stupid now I will always have back pain. As long as she enjoys the sport then she will probably keep at it especially if she has the whole package not just the jumps so let her develop great spind and footwork and edges to because if all I could do was jump there is no way I would still be skating.

[Elsy2]

Dani-skates...I feel for you. My daughter is in the same boat and will always have back pain. She is 15 and sustained her first stress fracture in her back at about age 13. Even though we tried to be as careful as possible and do the right thing, the damage is done. Just wanted to tell you you are not alone and I appreciate you posting.

I just wanted to add that I would have done the same thing...as a young gymnast I never told my parents when I was injured, as I was afraid they would make me stop. I don't know what your specific injury is, but there are certain injuries to the back that just don't heal, the fractures fill in with cartilage and there will always be a weakness there. Perhaps this is true for you and really there is nothing you could have done to prevent it. So, perhaps you were not stupid, just one of those individuals who could not tolerate the stress that skating puts on the back. Good luck to you!

[JD]

I agree definately, with Babyskates (hi!!!) and Dani and Elys2....

my little one is also 11, but very very teensy for size...and definately NOT allowed anywhere near triples... [if you look through some of the old postings on hip injuries,when is too young for doubles/triples etc...you'll find me:)]

we will be working on the 2axle this summer...its in harness -we started it again and going well...[and been landed w/o harness a few times]....but we're using the harness to cushion the landing impact...if this makes sense....oh, and---she finally finally is just over 50 lbs!!!! [51 yesterday---big grin---she's finally growing a little-we're so proud...]

so, we're just a little worried about her long term growth as a skater and as a child. What comes, comes. but not by hurting her health. if its working for yours, great.

We tend to spend a lot of time on posture, unusual spins and movements, and edges, edges, edges...not to mention spins and turns....we are currently working on strengthening her non-landing leg...

now, everyone will have to read the oh help thread...turns out my little one has fallen in love with ice dance.....advice !!! 911 !!!

[96.23??]

all i hafta say is:
holy talented!!!!

[nycbumpkin]

good heavens...my 11yo weighs almost twice as much as JD's...and I am assuming that means her body is grown enough to maybe take the stress of those jumps a little better??? I HOPE....???? Looking at it from the other angle, I am holding on to the "bribery-corruption" idea if necessary. ;) Thanks again everybody...

[JD]

Yes, if she weighs that much more than mine, you're definately 100 steps in the right direction....grin...because that means her size probablu corresponds to weight.....same as mine [though mine wears a size 13 baby skate...giggle]

interesting though how bodies grow...mine is just in that 1/2 of the 1% of the population...
genetically teeny...grin [for those who've heard this discussion before--my apologies]

as some of us told a worried skater mom once....everybody's body is different, and everyone learns and handles skating differently. You must be an educated parent, for the sake of your child. But,if you are worried, a check with a doctor,particularly one with a background in sports medicine, can always ease your mind with regards to muscles, bones, growth plates.

I think Elys2 said something about a conditioning program. A good stretching and conditioning program works wonders. So do dance classes, both on and off ice. helps with presentation, posture, on ice, the edges, natural rythm, etc... and I highly recommend pilates....mine loves it..

[nycbumpkin]

coach has her in dance AND pilates in addition to going to the gym...everybody says this is good, but i had wondered if it was all too much. Not for her, she thrives, and the deal is always schoolwork has to be done or she has to skip something. but still...it IS a lot.

[Elsy2]

My "little" skater is now just shy of 5'8".....I wouldn't dare mention weight.....before you know it, that is what happens and now I have to look up to her 8O In a way I envy all of your enthusiasm, as I am now in a different place with different goals. It's been a great journey though, and I don't regret it.