sk8ing is lyfe
03-15-2003, 08:05 PM
i just got this amazing PM from Ellyn and it clarified a lot... i thought that it should be shared with everyone... thanks Ellyn!!!
quote:
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sk8ing is lyfe wrote on 02-27-2003 05:03 PM:
hi, you seem to be very in the know of combinations and their degree of technical difficulty... can you please tell me what is worth more...
1. a 3/3
2. a 3axel
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Well, obviously a 3-3 combination in which the first jump is a 3axel would be worth more than a 3axel by itself. 3axel-3loop is the hardest 3-3 that has ever been done, and only by 2 or 3 different skaters ever (in competition), so that should probably be considered more difficult than a solo quad toe.
I think it would also be pretty well agreed on that a 3toe-3toe combination would be worth less than a 3axel.
In between, there are quite a few possible 3-3 combinations of varying difficulty. So it depends which combination we're talking about. 3lutz-3loop is very difficult. 3salchow-3toe is considerably less difficult.
And also in what context.
For senior men, I think it is more important to show mastery of the triple axel than ability to put a triple toe on the end of another jump, although obviously a skater will get more credit for doing either one of those options than for doing neither. For senior ladies and for juniors, it's still pretty rare to be able to do either, but since triple axels are still rarer than triple-triples at those levels I would still say the 3axel would be worth more, all other things being equal, which they rarely are. (Sometimes the best junior men internationally can do 3axel-3toe, but they're really senior level skaters by domestic standards.)
In Cinquanta's points system, if it ever gets officially adopted, as an isolated element a 3-3 combination using only 3-revolution triples will probably add up to more points than an solo 3axel because it includes two fairly difficult jumps and their total point value alone, plus whatever bonus would be added for doing them in combination, would add up to more than the point value for a 3axel. But in a long program if you did the 3axel alone you would also be able to do the other triples on their own in addition and get the base points for them. The question is whether the difference between the base point value for 3lutz vs. 3axel is more or less than the bonus points for combining two triples.
I don't know how the points for those elements will be assigned -- I suspect it is a point of discussion and negotiation for the developers of the system, to agree on relative difficulty of the elements.
In the meantime, individual judges would have to use their own judgement and might disagree with each other.
I don't think a decision would ever come down to just a case of one skater having a 3axel and another having a 3-3 combination and everything else balancing out to be so equal that the deciding factor would be what was the hardest jump element. So in that sense I think that, for ladies for example, 3-3s involving loop, flip, or lutz as the first jump and/or loop as the second jump would be worth approximately as much as a 3axel, and the decision would be made on the quality of the execution of that element plus all the other elements.
-Ellyn
quote:
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sk8ing is lyfe wrote on 02-27-2003 05:03 PM:
hi, you seem to be very in the know of combinations and their degree of technical difficulty... can you please tell me what is worth more...
1. a 3/3
2. a 3axel
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, obviously a 3-3 combination in which the first jump is a 3axel would be worth more than a 3axel by itself. 3axel-3loop is the hardest 3-3 that has ever been done, and only by 2 or 3 different skaters ever (in competition), so that should probably be considered more difficult than a solo quad toe.
I think it would also be pretty well agreed on that a 3toe-3toe combination would be worth less than a 3axel.
In between, there are quite a few possible 3-3 combinations of varying difficulty. So it depends which combination we're talking about. 3lutz-3loop is very difficult. 3salchow-3toe is considerably less difficult.
And also in what context.
For senior men, I think it is more important to show mastery of the triple axel than ability to put a triple toe on the end of another jump, although obviously a skater will get more credit for doing either one of those options than for doing neither. For senior ladies and for juniors, it's still pretty rare to be able to do either, but since triple axels are still rarer than triple-triples at those levels I would still say the 3axel would be worth more, all other things being equal, which they rarely are. (Sometimes the best junior men internationally can do 3axel-3toe, but they're really senior level skaters by domestic standards.)
In Cinquanta's points system, if it ever gets officially adopted, as an isolated element a 3-3 combination using only 3-revolution triples will probably add up to more points than an solo 3axel because it includes two fairly difficult jumps and their total point value alone, plus whatever bonus would be added for doing them in combination, would add up to more than the point value for a 3axel. But in a long program if you did the 3axel alone you would also be able to do the other triples on their own in addition and get the base points for them. The question is whether the difference between the base point value for 3lutz vs. 3axel is more or less than the bonus points for combining two triples.
I don't know how the points for those elements will be assigned -- I suspect it is a point of discussion and negotiation for the developers of the system, to agree on relative difficulty of the elements.
In the meantime, individual judges would have to use their own judgement and might disagree with each other.
I don't think a decision would ever come down to just a case of one skater having a 3axel and another having a 3-3 combination and everything else balancing out to be so equal that the deciding factor would be what was the hardest jump element. So in that sense I think that, for ladies for example, 3-3s involving loop, flip, or lutz as the first jump and/or loop as the second jump would be worth approximately as much as a 3axel, and the decision would be made on the quality of the execution of that element plus all the other elements.
-Ellyn