Doing what - at what age - at what level

[sk8ing is lyfe]

to be a strong competitive skater, what jumps do u think u should have at which age and what level should you be at by such-and-such an age?

(wierd question i know but i wanna hear other opinions)

~thanks

[Elsy2]

I'll take a stab at this question.....to be a "strong" competitive skater, you should be competing Intermediate by age 13, and to be competitive at the higher level competitions, you would need all your doubles, including 2/axel, and have a triple that may not be consistent. A double lutz in combination would be desirable in your program. In addition I would say you need some excellent spin combos, good expression of your music, and lots of speed.....

Having said that, I think you can still achieve alot in skating if you haven't met the above criteria....You can still do well at many competitions without all those jumps with a nice balanced clean program at whatever level is appropriate for your age and skills. I know some skaters who have had wonderful careers in skating who didn't start until they were teens. So there are many exceptions to doing certain skills at certain ages....

[sk8ing is lyfe]

i think thats fair.... i think you also should be novice by 15 and then junior by 17 and senior by 19. this would give you anough time to establish a long time senior ranking...

anyone else agree???

[JDC1]

I think it entirely depends on your goals. My guess would be if you want to push yourself to be one of the the "best" in the world you'd need your axel and doubles by 8-10 and be working on your triples 11-13. We have a couple of little ones that train pretty seriously and they're probably 8-9 and they have their axels, she's working on her double axel (veryyyy close to having it) she has 2 or 3 doubles and he's working on his double's. We have one 15 year old whose working on her triples (has very nice doubles) and she's pretty much considered a waaayy outside chance of making it to Nats (someday) in juniors. But then again you have someone like Jenny Kirk who starts at 11 and has done very well.

[JD]

It also depends on your size.

The competitive athlete development model on the Skate Canada website is a pretty good guide as long as you take size into account....

My little one, for example, is 10 going on 11 about 49 lbs and looks like an average height skating 8 yr old...so we aren't letting her train a double axel into consistency until summer...after her doctor's checkup...for muscles and growth plates....smile

So while age is a good indicator, size is also part of the consideration if you want your athlete to stay healthy

[BABYSKATES]

I didn't know Jenny Kirk started at 11. That's impressive. For some people, it is a good thing to start later. It takes concentration and focus to be a good skater. The jumps are technical and require a certain amount of muscle strength and coordination. I've seen older kids really take off quickly and do well, especially boys.

With girls, a lot depends on how they grow and when. If a girl is a late bloomer, she can learn her triples later because Mother Nature isn't getting in the way. A small, less developed 15 year old might have an easier time than a well developed 12 year old. Growth spurts throw everything out of whack. Imagine what is likely to happen to the skills of a child who grows 3 inches in 6 months!

Then there is the fear factor. The young ones tend to be a bit more fearless which is important in learning the harder skills. For lots of kids as they get older, they think more and mentally impede themselves.

Lucky boys seem to grow stronger and their skating improves with age while girls often have to change bodies and deal with out of control emotions in the middle years of their training.

My conclusion is that there is no formula at all. Sasha and Jenny were "late" to master her triples, Sarah and Michelle had them while they were preteens. I wish I did know the what the right times to learn the skills and be at certain levels are but I think it is totally individual.

[JDC1]

It should totally be decided on an individual basis!! The person's health - long term and short - should be considered. I see one young woman - 18-20 - very accomplished - working on her double flip take SO MANY really hard ugly falls and I have no idea how she puts up with it and I can't help but wonder in a few years she might not find she has stress fractures or some other problem relating to the really ugly falls she takes, she can fall hard 20 times in one session on her side. There may be general guide lines coaches use but if the skaters not ready, mentally or physically, they shouldn't be rushed.

[RoaringSkates]

Jenny had the advantage of some pretty intensive training in ballet before she started skating, so she already had the flexibilty and some of the balance needed. She also had the musicality and the dance skills. I'd think this allowed her to focus her work on her jumps and get them in a quicker timeframe. So it really is an individual thing.

[gardana]

I've always wondered about age and skating level too. Although as some of the other posters pointed out there probably are individual exceptions, for example some kid may be a preliminary at age 10 and then able to do Juvinille moves by age 12. Practice time, body type, ballet/dance exposure, and just a "knack" for it probably influences what level kids skate at.
I also thought I read that boys are usually behind the girls when it comes to skating levels, and then catch up around 13 or so.
Another thing to note is that most people skate below their actual skill level, for example a person may be able to do Intermediate skills, but might be still on a Juvinille test.

[CanAmSk8ter]

I don't think Jenny Kirk started quite that old. I have friends who know her, and I'm pretty sure she was more like 9. Still old for a girl to be starting, though. Johnny Weir was 11 or 12, from what I hear. I've found that in general the boys can start a little later than the girls. I've heard of boys even in recent years starting at 7-9 y.o. who have made it to nationals and even Worlds, while the vast majority of the girls who are getting to that level these days started by age 5 and often younger than that. Sure, you do have a Jenny Kirk or a Sasha Cohen who started later (I think Sasha was 7?) but they both had ballet and gymnastics backgrounds.

I know a few kids in my area who are showing some talent pretty young. I skate with a little girl who's ten and has a double axel. I don't know how often it's clean, but it's very close. She's also pretty small for her age. There's another little girl at my rink who's 7 and is maybe a quarter turn short of an axel, and another one at my other rink who's six and has up through loop and camel. It is getting ridiculuous how young they seem to have to start though; I know for a fact that at least two of those girls started skating at 3. I've taught kids as young as three, although I have to admit, when it comes to starting kids too young, the hockey dads take the cake. I have a little boy in my class now who's probably barely three. The first week I saw him, I wondered if he was even that old. I've had him for two eight-week sessions now and I've still never heard him talk. It took four weeks of coaxing just to get him on the ice.

[sk8ing is lyfe]

i totally agree... different people grow and mature differently. However no one has touched on what the skateers should be doing at certain levels.

ie: i think juvinile skaters should have a double axel / attempt. To do well in juvinile (nationally) i think you need a reasonable double axel....

anyone want imput on what you think you need in pre-nov. nov. jr. sr????

[Sylvia]

Originally posted by CanAmSk8ter
I don't think Jenny Kirk started quite that old. I have friends who know her, and I'm pretty sure she was more like 9. Still old for a girl to be starting, though.

Yes, Kirk started skating at age 9, according to her official site bio at:
http://www.figureskatersonline.com/jenniferkirk/profile.html
She was 11 when she competed at the Juvenile level (first of five USFSA national qualifying levels) and finished 12th at Nationals at that level in the 1995-6 season. She then proceeded to move up one level a year, winning national novice and junior bronze medals in 1998 and 1999, respectively.

Yebin Mok was 10 when she started and won the Juvenile and Intermediate national titles in consecutive seasons at the ages of 12 and 13. Even better, with her 6th place in senior ladies at 2003 Nationals at age 18, she's shown staying power, which hasn't usually been the case for the ones who win early championships.

[gardana]

There has already been discussion at what age certain female skaters skated Novice etc, what about the boys. I thought I'd read that boys under a certain age develope slower than girls when it comes to skating. I wonder in order to be a "serious" male skater at what age should a skater be doing what moves/skill levels?

I know that there are always exceptions to the rules. Furthermore since there are so many more females in skating the males, there are probably less competitions and events for male skaters to enter, so I'm guessing that may also make boys a little bit behind girls when it comes to skating.

[Elsy2]

We were discussing this on another thread, but I don't know which. The consensus was that the boys and girls were fairly equal in what skills were required up through Intermediate, but at Novice the boys start needing more triples than the girls to stay on top. I think it probably still applies that a boy needs to be competing Intermediate by 13, and the top Intermediates need the 2/axel. I am lucky to have been able to watch a very successful young man go up the ladder. He started at age 8 is is probably going up to Senior this year at age 16. Very talented.

[Michigansk8er]

The girl who won Juv at Junior Nationals had 2 double axels in her program. According to the article on the USFSA site she has 2 solid triples, but couldn't put them in her program since they aren't allowed at Juvenile (thank goodness). Am I the only one that thinks it's crazy that you need all of your doubles thru axel to win the Juvenile title, but you don't even need a double to pass the Juvenile test?

http://www.usfsa.org/news/2002-03/vlassov.htm (http://)

Of course, if I were making the rules you could only compete elements one test level above where you are, to level the playing field a bit more. That would mean no lutz in Bronze!!!!! :D

[Sylvia]

Originally posted by Michigansk8er
Am I the only one that thinks it's crazy that you need all of your doubles thru axel to win the Juvenile title, but you don't even need a double to pass the Juvenile test?

No, you're not crazy to think that, but USFSA test levels and competition levels serve very different purposes. Here's what a USFSA judge once posted on the rssif newsgroup during a discussion on this topic:

<< [USFSA] Tests do not have only one purpose. They serve several: they serve as the "basic credential" to admit you to a particular level of competition. They also serve as "benchmarks" for personal achievement. Since most skaters are in it for "personal achievement" rather than for elite competition, this is NOT a trivial purpose. Tests also serve as one type of credential for those who may take up coaching. >>

[axel18]

Requirements to pass a test have Very Little to do with being Competitive.
Secondly--be it that females mature much faster than males the ladies tend to have their jumps much sooner and are competing at a higher level at a VERY YOUNG AGE.

[Michigansk8er]

Sylvia,

That judge hasn't met the little girls at my rink. They all have Olympic visions. Coaching someday is the farthest thing on their mind. We have kids in their teens that are only Preliminary, but still have these dreams. Obviously this judge has not been down in the trenches, so to speak. I'm sure there are kids that are in it for personal achievement, but those are few and far between. In their dreams they are aiming for the top, not matter how unrealistic it is.

[Sylvia]

Hi Michigansk8er,
The judge I was quoting is currently judging "down in the trenches" and has a pretty good idea of the unrealistic skating goals/expectations of many lower level skaters! :) There are elite skaters on the U.S. National team "aiming for the top" (i.e., Olympics) who may be unrealistic to do so, and their chances appear better than the majority of skaters that enter USFSA qualifying competitions each season. The bottom line is: if the USFSA test level standards were as high as the competition level standards, the USFSA would lose the main base of its membership.

[Kathie McDonald]

Jumps, jumps, jumps -- how many and what difficulty level. This thread perhaps confirms an overemphasis on jumps at lower levels. In fact, the emphasis on jumps, especially the number of doubles, is what seems to have necessitated that the Juvenile Freestyle program go from 2 minutes to 2 min 15 secs this season. The pressure at the Juvenile level to cram as many double jumps and at least 3 double/double combos in a 2-minute Juvenile program left very little time for emphasis on demonstrating good edges, flow and artistry. The fact that the USFSA succumbed to the pressure to increase the program length affirms that USFSA judges are expecting "jumping beans" on the ice in Juvenile programs. Granted, the Juvenile girls now have a little more time for numerous jumps plus the other elements of making a program well-balanced and that is a relief given the current Juvenile rule on unlimited double jumps. However, perhaps increasing the program length should not have been necessary in the first place. Unlimited double jumps in a 2-minute Juvenile program was perhaps not the correct standard to begin with. I fear that this jump emphasis at this level will harm the development of well-rounded skating as time passes. I would welcome thoughts to the contrary because my view of the competitive skating world can be pretty limited.

[Mrs Redboots]

I was discussing this very thing this morning with a skating mother. She doesn't normally come in on Sundays, but her daughter had forgotten to give her tape to her coach so he could listen to it at home and start to plan the choreography for her. The daughter is a fairly promising young skater, at the axel/double Salchow level of skating, but at her last test, the judges told her it was as well that she had very little actual skating between all the elements in her programme, as her basic skating was so poor they would have failed her!

The result was a change of coach for the young lady, and she now goes to the man I use. He has taken her right back to basics, but, as her mother pointed out this morning, on an "extra" patch, she was still failing to practice her field moves - and, until she gets her next Field Moves test, current NISA rules mean that she can't compete! So her loss.....

How do you make young skaters really work on their Moves, though - they simply don't see the point when all that is focussed on is the jumps and spins, particularly the jumps? Even the television commentators here only really look at the jumps..... sigh!