Schedule for Eastern Adult Sectionals/Skate Challenge [Archive]

manleywoman

02-24-2003, 08:10 PM

I think if the numbers are down this year at ANs (which I hope they aren't...we need money coming into this event!) it will be a combination of economy, but also the testing deadline.

I know one guy who isn't coming because he couldn't pass the test before the deadline. And since he'd won his current level last year, he didn't see the point in competing again this year in the same level. Though I'm sure his competitors don't mind!

We always lose some competitors to injuries, jobs, children, etc, but we do gain a few every year in those who just turn 25.

I find it very interesting that in Championship Masters Ladies that while the numbers for Easterns are the same as last year, Mids doubled in size, and Pacifics also got larger. So I think some new 25 year olds have arrived!

vesperholly

02-25-2003, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by CanAmSk8ter
I noticed they left ten minutes for our dance group. That seems like more than necessary for two Americans. I wonder how many there actually are? Probably 3?

I wonder... I'll email her back and ask. Ten minutes is an awful lot for the American. I personally was very surprised and a bit disappointed to see that they are also holding "regular" competition categories as well. I like the idea of an adult-only competition.

Jocelyn, who won't be able to do any of the practice ice either :P

dcden

02-25-2003, 09:28 AM

I was thinking the same thing... it's almost like the adult sectionals is an afterthought to the other event. It would have been nice if all the adult events were to take place on one day, but perhaps that was not possible due to scheduling. I will not be able to watch Sunday's events since I will fly out at 11 that morning. At least the Saturday qualifying events occur at a reasonable time, not too early or late.

As for the AN turnout numbers, I heard that overall there will be 631 entrants, slightly higher than last year. Still, there are some events such as Bronze I ladies with a lower turnout. Also, as some evidence of the "testing up" theory, this will be the first year in some time (at least since I've been attending AN) that there will be more Gold I men (5) than Silver I (3) or Bronze I men (2). I was one of those that rushed to beat the MIF deadline in September.

flo

02-25-2003, 10:15 AM

I'm not really surprised at the numbers, and expect the overall number to go down over the next few years, and the composition of skaters to change significantly - and don't believe it's the economy. The moves requirements result in a greater time period between skaters moving up from level to level, and starting from the begining to replace those who do move up. I also believe the numbers of skaters returning for multiple AN's will decrease. Many adults will simply not have the time to devote to passing moves and then freestyle, and will be stuck at a level for quite some time - which can get pretty dull not to mention frustrating. It's also a sticky situation for those that do medal and can not move up.

Where I do see an increase will be in the returning skaters - those who skated as kids but did not test far. These skaters will be able to pass the moves tests and free tests at a greater rate than those begining as adults, and will thus be able to advance throught the levels in reasonable time, and not become as frustrated or bored.

The next couple of years will be interesting to watch. To get an accurate picture of where the adult movement is and where it is going we really have to look not only at the total numbers, but the composition of skaters. I think there will still be money flowing into adult skating, but it will become a very different program that what it has been the past 10 years. The USFSA has been looing for a way to keep Adult Nationals at a managable size. Looks like they found it.

flutzilla1

02-25-2003, 10:21 AM

Speaking of this year's AN, does anyone know when the schedule and groups will be posted?

manleywoman

02-25-2003, 12:31 PM

I'm sure the AN schedule won't be posted until March 15th, at the earliest.

skaternum

02-25-2003, 12:52 PM

Interesting numbers. Overall increase, but a decrease in certain groups. Hmmm.

flo, I think you're right about the effect the mandatory Moves will have on AN and adult comps in general. I think once the "beat the clock" rush settles down, we'll see big bottlenecks at Bronze and Silver.

I agree, too, with your comments about returning skaters increasing in the ranks of "adult skaters." I'm not entirely sure I'm crazy about it, though. Nothing against the skaters, because I think it's great there are other adult skaters who love to skate like I do. But I don't want to see USFSA lose those of us who really are adult onset skaters. At Governing Council last year, everytime someone in a general session made a comment about adult skaters (e.g., as a source of potential judges), they clearly meant returning adult skaters. I'm afraid USFSA is going to slowly and quietly start ignoring adult onset skaters.

And, quite frankly and selfishly, I don't want to compete against somebody who skated as a Pre-Juvenile kid! I know there has to be a way of grouping adults, and this may have seemed like the thing to do at the time, but I see a real difference in the two groups. Maybe once the nubmers of returning adults reach some critical mass, they should just expand the Masters category all the way down to Pre-Juv. :?? And leave the Adult category to the adult onsetters.

vesperholly

02-25-2003, 03:08 PM

Well, I can see I look forward to a warm welcome from my competitors when I finally turn 25 in three years. :roll:

Jocelyn

skaternum

02-25-2003, 04:55 PM

Jeez, Jocelyn, no need to roll eyes. I said I don't have anything against the skaters. And I don't have a problem with "returning adults." But philosophically, I don't think adult onset skaters should be competing against them, and I don't think USFSA should ignore us. What's so bad about that? Jeez.

flo

02-26-2003, 09:52 AM

Jocelyn,
At An you'll get as warm a welcome as you give. The returning skaters have been very supportive of the adults, and we of them. The original goal of the adult movement was to provide a venue for skaters who learned to skate as adults, and we have worked for this for many years (before and after the first AN). We are also glad there is an event for returning skaters, but not as a replacement for the adults. There's room for both to compete, but not against each other.

vesperholly

02-26-2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by flo
Jocelyn,
At An you'll get as warm a welcome as you give. The returning skaters have been very supportive of the adults, and we of them. The original goal of the adult movement was to provide a venue for skaters who learned to skate as adults, and we have worked for this for many years (before and after the first AN). We are also glad there is an event for returning skaters, but not as a replacement for the adults. There's room for both to compete, but not against each other.

Well, the only "attitude" I've ever gotten from adult competitors was from some young adult gold/masters competitors a few years back. Everyone else I have met has been quite nice, so I'm not basing this in reality really. :-)

I think I'm just frustrated because I'm always going to be in that somewhat outsider group. I started too old to do the usual things (Regionals, Empire State Games), and I started too young to really "belong" with adult skaters. Even when I turn 25, I won't be competing Masters (unless something striking happens to my freestyle in the next few years), I will be competing in Championship Gold. It seems like unless you started at 7 or 25, there isn't a place in the competitive world for you - Masters is intended for those who started at 7 and took a break somewhere along the lines until 25.

I can understand your frustration at child skaters who are becoming adults turning the adult skating scene into something it wasn't intended to be, but try to understand mine in that I have never even had a proper scene to belong to!

Jocelyn

LWalsh

02-26-2003, 11:22 AM

"There's room for both to compete, but not against each other."

I have to disagree considering I placed last in all three events I entered in DC. I am a returning skater and I do not have any magical skills.

Consider my story:

I skated as a child and passed my Juvenile FS test in 1982. My entire competitive career as a child consisted of a whopping 4 ISIA competitions at my home rink. From 1983 until 2000, I stepped on ice a grand total of 4 times. This means I have to compete at the Silver level. At the competition in DC, I placed last in all three events I entered. I was hardly a threat to anyone and the skaters that placed ahead of me had learned as adults (to my best knowledge)

I also think it's easy for people to forget that the "returning skaters" came from a different era in skating. When I passed my Juvenile FS test there was no axle requirement (or I never would have passed). Back then there was only Preliminary and Juvenile (not all this pre- stuff) Preliminary was considered an "encouragement" test to get the skater interested in USFSA testing. Also since the figures tests were mandatory requirements you didn't see the freestyle elements like you do now. Back then a Juvenile skater's program was very different and not at all like today. Partially because women were only just starting to do triples at the elite level and partially because you had to spend 50% of your time on school figures which significantly impacted FS skills. It wasn't until 1980.

It really depends more on how much the returning skater skated in the interim, athletic ability, etc.

Jocelyn,

I have encountered people who snarl at me if I say I skated as a child. Certainly the type of comments above have made me feel unwelcome in the past but fortunately people with that sort of attitude are not in abundance. For the most part you will find adult skaters to be supportive of each other.

LW

blue111moon

02-26-2003, 11:23 AM

But right now, both groups are competing together, as long as the returners never passed Intermediate FS. It's worst at the younger age groups.

I know adults who had had axels and double jumps as kids, but never tested past Juvenile and have come back as soon as they turned 25 for the sole purpose of winning the medals they never got as children (I know this because they were dumb enough to BRAG about it to me!). This, to me, is just wrong and I'd like to see USFSA come up with some way of differentiating between the two groups so that people who learned to skate after age 25 are not put in the same group with people who learned the same skills as kids.

That doesn't seem to be on the Adult Skaters Committee's agenda, though, so I'm betting that within a few years most of the competitors at Adult Nationals (and definitely the medalists) will be people who skated as kids and came back after a break for school and/or marriage and kids, or who simply never stopped at all.

flo

02-26-2003, 11:45 AM

Joceyln, I think there are probably quite a few skaters in your situation. This is why the young adult categories were created. I hope they get supported to give this stuck group a chance to compete.

Lwalsh, returning skaters may very well be from a different era and may not have had to do an axel when testing as a kid, but they did learn to skate as kids. The majority of skaters who learned to skate as kids have an ease and flow or strength about them that those starting as adults do not. If you put a returning skater on the ice - axel or no - and just ask them to do crossovers and compare these with adult skaters, in the majority of cases you can differentiate between the two - who skated as a kid, and who did not.
A friend of mine skated as a kid, but did primarily figures. She did not jump well - no axel, and is not a strong jumper now. 30 + years and as she puts it "as many pounds later" her skating is beautiful. She also has to compete in silver, and her skating makes up for the jumps.

sk8er1964

02-26-2003, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by blue111moon
I know adults who had had axels and double jumps as kids, but never tested past Juvenile and have come back as soon as they turned 25 for the sole purpose of winning the medals they never got as children (I know this because they were dumb enough to BRAG about it to me!). This, to me, is just wrong and I'd like to see USFSA come up with some way of differentiating between the two groups so that people who learned to skate after age 25 are not put in the same group with people who learned the same skills as kids.

Those types of people are sandbaggers - they show bad sportsmanship and maybe there should be some type of way to discipline them. However, please don't lump all returning adults in with those people.

I'm a returning adult. I never tested past Juvenile, but did test on the ISIA track. I had doubles through a loop when I quit at age 16, 22 years ago. I'm sure that the USFSA hasn't run a check on me to see what ISIA level I passed, but I know that the rules say I have to compete at Gold, so I am. This is although, realistically looking at the content of my program and what I am currently able to do, I am skating at the Silver level.

I really do not see how much of an advantage that I would have over somebody who started skating at 30, has skated for 8 years, and is at Gold. We both are 38 year old skaters at the same level. It doesn't matter what level you are at, or what age, some skaters are going to be better than others for whatever reason - the time they spend on the ice practicing, their natural talent, etc. I don't know - maybe I'll change my mind after I see my first adult competition this weekend.

Maybe it's different at the lower levels or at the younger age groups. Maybe the system isn't perfect. However, is there a practical solution to the adult-onset vs. returnee issue that would be fair in the eyes of everyone? Probably not.

skaternum

02-26-2003, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by LWalsh
I have encountered people who snarl at me if I say I skated as a child. Certainly the type of comments above have made me feel unwelcome in the past but fortunately people with that sort of attitude are not in abundance.

LW

Have you ever heard the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner?" It *sort of* applies to my attitude about this. Could I please go on record as saying I have never and would never be rude to returning adult skaters that I encounter. I have nothing against people who compete fairly under the existing rules. What I have a problem with is the rules. So don't go assuming this means I harbor some animosity towards returning adult skaters. I don't. I'm smart enough and mature enough to make the distinction between the rules and the skaters. Please don't make assumptions about my behavior.

I agree 100% with flo's comments about the nature of the advantage returning adult skaters have. It's not necessarily the tricks. It's the skating. Having the muscle memory of moving on the ice, no matter how deeply buried that memory may be, makes a big difference. As a sweeping generalization, a returning skater simply looks and moves differently on the ice. You really can tell when you put them side by side. And, incidentally, this helps returning adult skaters generally pick up the tricks faster and "better" than adult onset skaters.

And I think USFSA would be nuts if they started ignoring adult onset skaters. We do a heck of a lot of work at the club and regional level. They would be wise to cultivate our membership, not alienate us.

blue111moon

02-26-2003, 12:23 PM

Please see the second paragraph of flo's post. There is a vast difference in the quality of skating skills between people who skated as kids, no matter what their level, and people who learned to skate for the first time past age 25. Most of the judges, who see hundreds of skaters a year, can correctly identify adults who skated as kids just from the warm-ups. After you've competed a few years, you may see it too. I know after more than 20 years in the sport, it's pretty obvious to me - and that's even among people I didn't see skate when they were kids!

sk8er1964

02-26-2003, 12:42 PM

I don't know, blue111moon.

When I saw myself on video the first time my first thought was "Oh no! I look like an adult!!!" Somehow, in my mind, I still think I should look like a 16 year old :D :D .

Seriously, I can see your point. Especially at the lower levels - I still doubt that there'd be that huge of a difference at Gold, but I don't think I've yet watched a Gold who hasn't skated as a kid (so I probably should keep my mouth shut, hunh? :??).

It's just that I don't really see a practical solution to the problem. I've skated in two local competitions since I've been back on the ice. At the first one there were 4 of us skating at Gold, and last weekend I was the only adult at the entire competition. Even at Sectionals, in the non-qualifying event (combined II's and III's), there's only 7 of us and in the qualifying event there's 13. Are there really enough adult skaters of each type to seperate us?

BTW, somebody had suggested putting us returnees in with the masters.....um I don't like that idea too much. The reason? As it is now I can enter the qualifying round with a reasonable chance of qualifying for the championship round at AN's. There is no way on earth that I could ever hope to qualify at the masters level - those ladies have double lutzes and stuff like that!!! (Actually, if truth be told, I have no real hope of qualifying at Gold this year....but someday :lol: )

blue111moon

02-26-2003, 12:54 PM

There aren't enough skaters at local competitions to split the adults. But there are enough at Adult Nationals and since they now give out medals for the qualying rounds there, I think it would be possible to split the groups there.

Practically speaking, it would have to be on an honor system until USFSA's computer records could catch up (and there would be sandbaggers, I know - not everyone id honest, unfortunately.) But it could be done, if the Committee members decided to. I don't see that happening, so what will probably happen - and is happening now, if the comments I'm hearing from adults in my area is any indication - is that the adults who started skating as adults will drift toward ISI or away from AN altogether, leaving the field to the returnees. The level of competition and the quality of skating will go up, but the people for whom the Asdut Test Struture was created will be left out.

manleywoman

02-26-2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by vesperholly

I think I'm just frustrated because I'm always going to be in that somewhat outsider group. I started too old to do the usual things (Regionals, Empire State Games), and I started too young to really "belong" with adult skaters. Even when I turn 25, I won't be competing Masters (unless something striking happens to my freestyle in the next few years), I will be competing in Championship Gold. It seems like unless you started at 7 or 25, there isn't a place in the competitive world for you - Masters is intended for those who started at 7 and took a break somewhere along the lines until 25.

Wow, you have a pessimistic view, especially since it seems you have yet to even go watch ANs and see how diverse the levels actually are.

So what if you're not competing Masters at 25...is that somehow a failure on your part? It shouldn't be. And no, Masters is not intended for only the child skaters: I can name several skaters who started skating as beginners well past age 25 who are competing in Masters. I can also name a few skaters who started as kids and never stopped skating who are Gold or below.

And why are you too old to do "the usual things?" I think YOU think you're too old, but there is no rule that says you can't compete there. I'm considering competing this year in Novice Regionals, and I'm 31!

It seems to me you're putting restrictions on yourself, because there IS a place in the competitive world for you, but you don't seem to want to find it.

As for everyone else's comments regarding returing child skaters and new beginning adult skaters...I find this discussion continously frustrating. I am a returning child skater, but there are skaters who started as adults who kick my butt in competition on a regular basis. Perhaps they are the exception to the rule, but they do exist, so since it *is* acheivable for a new skater to become great skaters with deep knees and flow, I think we should all skate and compete together. Some people naturally have talent, and the rest of us have to work harder.

Examples:
Kim Morgan: started skating at age 37, had 2lutz by 43. Competes Novice, I think.
Kim Sailer: started at age 27 in Silver, won 2nd last year in both Open Gold and Champ. Gold at ANs. She's moved up to Novice and is doing masters at Easterns next weekend.
Ann Devlin: Don't know if she's a child skater or not, but she passed her Junior Free in her 50s! Featured in Skating magazine last year, and Kicked my butt at Easterns last year (and I'm 20+ years younger).

I for one don't care if I get beaten or compete against new skaters who have better jumps than i do...instead of getting bitter that they are surpassing me i look upon it as a challenge to improve myself. I'm not in this sport for the medals. And sometimes when I hear an adult complaining that they can't win against returning child skaters who may have a better "quality" about them, then I respond by asking that adult what their goals in the sport are. Because frankly, if you're in it for medals, i think you should reevaluate why you're here. Because even if you're in a competition where there are NO returning child skaters, who is to say you're still going to win a medal?

I think adult skating...ALL adult skating regardless of when you started the sport...is important and valuable to the USFSA and all of us. I would hope we wouldn't further divide ourselves into subsections of talent and quality. I try to be supportive of all types of skaters because this is a beautiful sport that teaches us all so much, and I wish that were the focus of adult competitions.

For what it's worth, I know a lot of my fellow Masters level ladies, and I can't think of one who doesn't think that new adult skaters aren't valuable to the sport. And I can't imagine any of us would ever purposly try to make new adult skaters feel alienated. It bothers me greatly that I hear a lot of dissension from new skaters about us child skaters, but I've never heard any animosity from child skaters to new skaters.

flo

02-26-2003, 01:01 PM

skater1964 - What you don't look like you're 16???? ;)
I agree it would be pretty tough for many returning skaters to compete in the masters groups. It's not uncommon to lump groups at the local level, but I thought there would be more at the sectionals. I was at one event where they combined the men and ladies. My friend was happy, as he could compete in a larger field - we bet dinner. It was delicious!

Manley, you're right, it is "possible" for an adult to achieve some skills equal to that of a returning skater, but for the vast majority it's not very probable or common. My partner and I competed in masters pairs, as he was a gold level skater. We competed with a former kid pair. We had a death spiral that I'd put up against any returning pair, but the fact was that there's a significant difference in the overall quality of skating. And our goal is not "just the medals". Our goal is a good competition. If we didn't want a good competition then we would not compete at all. You're right, there are good skaters and better skaters at all levels. All should not expect medals, but should expect a good competition.

manleywoman

02-26-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by flo

Manley, you're right, it is "possible" for an adult to achieve some skills equal to that of a returning skater, but for the vast majority it's not very probable or common. ...Our goal is a good competition. If we didn't want a good competition then we would not compete at all. You're right, there are good skaters and better skaters at all levels. All should not expect medals, but should expect a good competition.

And I guess because it is possible, thats why I don't think the levels should be further categorized into "returning" skaters and "new" skaters. Besides the fact that, as has been stated by others, it would be an organizational mess.

We all want good fair competition. I too have felt robbed or frustrated at competition, but I'm hopeful about adult skating. It's still so new and has lots of bugs to be worked out, and I'd love to see other events offered (like spin or moves events), but frankly, I think most of the time the adult competitions work out well.

Regarding adding other events: I've talked to a few people on the USFSA adult committee about adding spin events (for people who don't like to jump), jump events (vice-versa), and MIF events at ANs. But because ANs runs so long already, and adults can only take so many days off from work, it doesn't seem feasable. It's a shame.

skaternum

02-26-2003, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by manleywoman
And sometimes when I hear an adult complaining that they can't win against returning child skaters who may have a better "quality" about them, then I respond by asking that adult what their goals in the sport are. Because frankly, if you're in it for medals, i think you should reevaluate why you're here. Because even if you're in a competition where there are NO returning child skaters, who is to say you're still going to win a medal?

It's not about somebody being "better" than you. To me, it's about a level playing field. You can anecdotally point to several fabulous adult onset skaters, and there are returning adult skaters whose butts I could kick, but I stand by the generality that adults who skated as kids are different from adults who started as adults. That's why Masters skaters got separated from Adult skaters to begin with. I personally don't think the separation went far enough. I think there needs to be at least one more, if not two more, Masters levels.

For what it's worth, I know a lot of my fellow Masters level ladies, and I can't think of one who doesn't think that new adult skaters aren't valuable to the sport. And I can't imagine any of us would ever purposly try to make new adult skaters feel alienated. It bothers me greatly that I hear a lot of dissension from new skaters about us child skaters, but I've never heard any animosity from child skaters to new skaters.

I'm not talking about individual skaters making anyone feel alienated. Nobody has ever come up to me at an adult competition (and I do a fair number of them) and said, " we don't value you in this sport." I'm talking about USFSA as an organization and the rules it makes and the messages it sends. Once again, I'll state that I (and other adult skaters I know) don't blame the skaters. I blame the rules. Why is that so hard to believe? Why do you interpret this as animosity? I'm stating a philosophical opinion.

flo

02-26-2003, 04:23 PM

Skaternum, that's an important point. Many returning skaters are very supportive, and have mentioned to me that they know how hard it is for them to compete with an older body, let alone learn all this with one! I'm sure there are a hanfull of adult skaters who can "kick butt" of returning kids. But the adult program was not developed for a handful of skaters, but for the majority of the adults.
I do agree that the USFSA still does not have a grasp of what it is to be an adult skater. That's one reason I'm going to the May meeting. It's a work in progress!

manleywoman

02-26-2003, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by skaternum
...but I stand by the generality that adults who skated as kids are different from adults who started as adults.

Generally speaking, yes, I agree.

I personally don't think the separation went far enough. I think there needs to be at least one more, if not two more, Masters levels.

Here I disagree, because ...
a) there ARE skaters who are the exception to your first quote. Maybe not many, but they exist.
b) practically speaking, currently there aren't enough Masters ladies nationwide to warrant more levels. If that changes in the future, then perhaps the USFSA should add more levels, but right now it seems unnecessary.
c) if you've ever watched Novice, Junior or Senior ladies at ANs, you'll see lots of disparity of skill. Some of the Gold Ladies are better than the Masters Ladies, believe me! So I just don't understand when i hear posters being frustrated that they are afraid to move up a level or that it's too competitive in Masters. There is room for more skaters to move up to Masters.

I'm not talking about individual skaters making anyone feel alienated. ...I'm talking about USFSA as an organization and the rules it makes and the messages it sends. Once again, I'll state that I (and other adult skaters I know) don't blame the skaters. I blame the rules. Why is that so hard to believe? Why do you interpret this as animosity?

Perhaps it's the medium of email that make certain posts come across as aggressive, but I do feel on this message board that there are frequent posts of "I had to compete against someone who had "x" element...how unfair!" and "I didn't get a medal because of XYZ." So i feel that the posts are blaming the skaters, and NOT directing the frustration at the USFSA. Perhaps you don't blame the skaters (for which I thank you!) but other posters do. This is all good discussion for how to improve adult skating, but posters should be more cognisant of placing their frustration where it belongs. Because I do feel that some of the posts are bitter towards us returning skaters. JMO.

One thing regarding USFSA: like it or not they have for along time been set up for competition and not so much for fun (like ISI). And I'm all for making sure that adults of all levels are included and thought of at USFSA Headquarters. So I do think these discussions are valuable to help solidify ideas of how we can all be included in competition and testing.

Flo, glad to know you're going to the meeting. You'll have to let us know our thoughts!

Mrs Redboots

02-27-2003, 07:44 AM

What I would like to see is more categories for "continuing" skaters - those who have perhaps got as far as they are going in the elite competitions, but who don't want to give up either skating or competing. I want to be able to encourage those who, for instance, were never going to make their country's Nationals at any level, but who were good, solid Club skaters, well able to represent their Clubs in League matches and Team Challenge. Perhaps they plateau-ed out at whatever your equivalent of Bronze is (our level 5-6), and were never going to get the triple jumps they needed to continue.

I don't belong to that category myself; I started as an adult and will never be anything other than a really poor adult skater. But I don't want to see any category of skater feeling "left out".

vesperholly

02-27-2003, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by manleywoman
Wow, you have a pessimistic view, especially since it seems you have yet to even go watch ANs and see how diverse the levels actually are.

So what if you're not competing Masters at 25...is that somehow a failure on your part? It shouldn't be. And no, Masters is not intended for only the child skaters: I can name several skaters who started skating as beginners well past age 25 who are competing in Masters. I can also name a few skaters who started as kids and never stopped skating who are Gold or below.

I don't view it as a failure that I'm not competing in Masters. My goal is Championship Gold, and I'm ok with that. I want to compete in qualifying events, and with the double lutzes and double axels in Championship Masters, I will not be competitive. Who knows, by the time I'm 30 I might be in Masters. If so, cool. If not, oh well. I am being realistic. I'm not a jumper and never have been. I can spin and I would like to think that the choreographic part of my programs are good.

And please don't assume that since I've never been to ANs that I don't know what I'm talking about. I went to Adult Midwesterns in 2001 and watched the entire competition, which was quite large. Perhaps my perspective will change once I see what I'm competing against, but it's not like I've never seen an adult skater. I'm rather removed from the adult scene up here in Buffalo where I can count the number of serious adult skaters on one hand.

Originally posted by manleywoman
And why are you too old to do "the usual things?" I think YOU think you're too old, but there is no rule that says you can't compete there. I'm considering competing this year in Novice Regionals, and I'm 31!

Well, yes, there IS a rule - at my freestyle level (Juvenile), I am too old. Even at Intermediate I am too old. Considering that I have a shaky axel, no consistent doubles, I'm not going to go far in Open Juvenile - not to mention that Open Juv is usually capped at 18. If I could pass my Novice FS I would, and I would probably compete in Regionals just for the heck of it! At my skill level I AM too old for qualifying events, and I feel uncomfortable and would be out of place competing in club competitions against 10-year-olds.

Originally posted by manleywoman
It seems to me you're putting restrictions on yourself, because there IS a place in the competitive world for you, but you don't seem to want to find it.

Oh, that's bullhockey. It's not like I feel I don't belong in skating, or I go around acting like an outcast and a loner because competitively I don't "fit" anywhere right now. I have friends, I enjoy my time on the ice and I compete when and where I feel comfortable - usually solo dance.

You tell me - what are the options for a 22-year-old with a sorta axel, no consistent doubles and good spins? Except for a few competitions with young adult events (most are just now offering adult categories), there is not a competitive arena for people of my age and skill. I am not embarrassed, ashamed, or demeaned by my skills or lack of. *shrug* I don't even like competing that much!

I don't understand why you are interpreting this all with hostility. Reread my messages with a relaxed tone then maybe it'll sound better! I'm not all that concerned, nor do I think I need to start any kind of national movement for the sake of a few 18-24 year olds who can do axels. I'm looking forward to competing as an adult, I think it will be more fun.

Flo, I will see you at Governing Council!!! I'm going too! :-)

Jocelyn

blue111moon

02-27-2003, 09:13 AM

"Well, yes, there IS a rule - at my freestyle level (Juvenile), I am too old. Even at Intermediate I am too old. Considering that I have a shaky axel, no consistent doubles, I'm not going to go far in Open Juvenile - not to mention that Open Juv is usually capped at 18. If I could pass my Novice FS I would, and I would probably compete in Regionals just for the heck of it! At my skill level I AM too old for qualifying events, and I feel uncomfortable and would be out of place competing in club competitions against 10-year-olds."

That rule only applies to Qualifying competitions. At least in New England, there are lots of Opens with no age limits on the standard level events. My club Open had 22 year olds competitng in Preliminary a couple years ago and the youngest person in the group was not quite seventeen. So the "competing against 10-year-olds" reason isn't valid. Opens have a wide range of ages within each level.

Besides, what's the difference between a 22-year old competing against a 12-year-old (which is the current average age for Juveneiles in my area) and a 22-year-old competing against a 32-year-old? It's still a ten year difference. If you don't want to compete against someone ten years younger than you are, then why should older adults want to compete against you? In Opens, though, the age range can be twenty or even thirty years between the oldest and youngest Adult (over 25)skaters.

I guess maybe what's bothering me about your posts is that I've heard the same things form a couple of under-25's in my area. They complain that there's nowhere for them to compete But they don't enter the competitions that are open to them. I get irked I think because I - and many of my contemporaries - spent more than a decade entering competitions that we knew weren't at our level just to convince USFSA that the numbers were there and Adult skaters were a viable entity. It seems to me that some - Not all - of the under-25s aren't willing to do that - stand up and make themselves be noticed. They want the events created before they'll enter them. USFSA generally wants to see numbers before they add events to their official rules, and frankly the response for the Yuung Adults just hasn't been there.

Besides why do you HAVE to "go far" in Open Juvenile? If you want to compete in Regionals, compete. At least you've done it. And if you come in last, so what?

flo

02-27-2003, 09:36 AM

Hi Jocelyn,
At a local event I have been to, one woman around 23-24 (in a situation much like yours) who applied to the standard event, was allowed to enter the adult event at the corresponding level. The adults in my group were ok with it. It worked out well, and now she's 25 and still competing with us. So you may want to check out some local events.
Good luck!

KJD

02-27-2003, 09:46 AM

Holy smokes! What a discussion. I just got in to read the board after 2 days locked in with my children from our ice storm. I think that the answer is...... that there are no easy answers, and that adult skating is still new to the USFSA and things are still getting sorted out. My initial feeling is that the dilemna of returning skaters vs. adult onset skaters (wow that sounds like a disease, I think we need to call it something else) will be most prevalent at the younger age groups of each level. But, I could be wrong. I've only been to two sectionals and no adult nationals but it would be interesting to see if the folks towards the top of each level and age group were returning skaters or otherwise. I do think that adults who skated as kids move differently on the ice, no matter how far they got as kids, and that some of the skills are easier for them to pick up. A little bit like learning to ride a bike - if you learned its in there somewhere. I used to show horses as a kid and even though I haven't been on a horse in 15+ years, I'm sure after an hour or so I could probably ride decently and take a decent horse over some lower fences. Vs someone who hadn't been on a horse before.

I hope that at some point the adult skating committee and USFSA at least have some discussions about a number of the issues floating around in adult skating that should be sorted out. I personally think that the returning vs. started as an adult skater for competitive levels isn't the absolute top one to address, however, mostly because there will always be exceptions to the generalizations about that (returning skaters not skating as well as started as adult skaters, etc.). I would also say for the skaters not quite 25 who started in late teens or early twenties, that they should try to participate in as many competitions that offer young adult, because it would show the USFSA that this should be a legitimate category - and then you'll have a place to belong!

I would love to see the adult skating committe at least talk about some of these issues, along with things like what should REALLY be on the adult moves tests and helping judges figure out how to judge them. I think that's just as much of an issue as some of the other discussion topics.

manleywoman

02-27-2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by vesperholly
My goal is Championship Gold, and I'm ok with that. I want to compete in qualifying events, and with the double lutzes and double axels in Championship Masters, I will not be competitive.

For the record, coming from someone who competes In Masters, I don't find the above statement true at all. I haven't seen too many great 2axel attempts, and while there may be a frequent 2flip and 2 lutz here or there, I've seen plenty of girls place well with no higher than a 2loop, great spins, speed and footwork. Plus the girls with the 2lutz and 2axels certainly don't always land them! For some reason everyone has this perception that the Novice, Junior and Senior ladies are impenetrable. We aren't...I thought the Gold ladies were more competitive last year than my Novice group! That's why I think adding more levels in Masters isn't necessary.

Vesperholly...I'm not showing hostility towards you I promise, juat trying to show you that there ARE options. I think blue111moon articulated it better.

The adult issue is complicated. But I'm glad to see there's going to be some good representation at Governing Council!

vesperholly

02-27-2003, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by blue111moon
Besides, what's the difference between a 22-year old competing against a 12-year-old (which is the current average age for Juveneiles in my area) and a 22-year-old competing against a 32-year-old? It's still a ten year difference. If you don't want to compete against someone ten years younger than you are, then why should older adults want to compete against you? In Opens, though, the age range can be twenty or even thirty years between the oldest and youngest Adult (over 25)skaters.

The difference between 12 and 22 is WAY different than 22 and 32. The majority of twelve year olds, even dolled up in competition makeup, still look like a child - small features, a bit of baby fat, a mini-chest, no shape, etc. Unless you are two feet away, 22 and 32 are physically closer - they have both been through puberty, have skill at applying makeup :-) etc.

Originally posted by blue111moon
I guess maybe what's bothering me about your posts is that I've heard the same things form a couple of under-25's in my area. They complain that there's nowhere for them to compete But they don't enter the competitions that are open to them. I get irked I think because I - and many of my contemporaries - spent more than a decade entering competitions that we knew weren't at our level just to convince USFSA that the numbers were there and Adult skaters were a viable entity. It seems to me that some - Not all - of the under-25s aren't willing to do that - stand up and make themselves be noticed. They want the events created before they'll enter them. USFSA generally wants to see numbers before they add events to their official rules, and frankly the response for the Yuung Adults just hasn't been there.

But really, I don't mind if there aren't Young Adult events right now. I think you are all taking a small complaint way too seriously. I don't think there's a big enough need for it much less at ANs. I don't blame the USFSA for not including it when there's not a need. What's frustrating to me is that I am a minority right now, and they don't respond to minorities - especially Young Adults since there are so few. I don't blame them, I'm just a bit frustrated sometimes, that's all.

Not to mention I can't exactly afford to be competing a lot, otherwise I would. There are personal things that effect our "cause" too.

Jocelyn

blue111moon

02-27-2003, 01:49 PM

There are a lot more under-25s skating now than there were over-25s when I started.

Lili

03-03-2003, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by vesperholly

Well, yes, there IS a rule - at my freestyle level (Juvenile), I am too old. Even at Intermediate I am too old. Considering that I have a shaky axel, no consistent doubles, I'm not going to go far in Open Juvenile - not to mention that Open Juv is usually capped at 18. If I could pass my Novice FS I would, and I would probably compete in Regionals just for the heck of it! At my skill level I AM too old for qualifying events, and I feel uncomfortable and would be out of place competing in club competitions against 10-year-olds.

Ahh! I feel the same way. Which is usually why I do not compete anymore. If I am going to compete, I will usually do spins, but not jumps. Im 19 going up against 10 year olds who have consistent double loops against my puny axel. This is the only year that Ill probably do open juv at regionals...if they have them for my age :cry: