Double Axels and triples at what age? [Archive]

Elsy2

02-01-2003, 08:45 AM

My daughter didn't start seriously skating until she was almost ten, however, I think I can contribute some info about young athletes in general. During the growth periods of young athletes, there will be more vunerability to injury. I'm not sure if overuse injuries would be any more prevalent in a nine year old than a teen. What we can do as parents is to be sure our kids are doing all the right things to prevent injury. That includes good equipment, proper stretching prior to skating, good hydration during sports, and perhaps some strength training of some sort to insure that their muscles are strong and flexible to handle the rigors of skating. When I say strength training, I'm talking about strong abs and upper body...My daughter uses pilates and dance as cross training methods.

So, in short....be sure your daughter isn't just hopping on the ice everyday and going at it without proper warm up and stretching...be sure she's eating properly and drinking enough to stay hydrated. Watch for any indications of pain that could indicate overuse injuries. Make sure her training is well rounded off ice as well as on ice.

Since your daughter's doubles are solid, I don't see how you can hold her back from the harder jumps.....I also find it hard to watch the crashes, and I find myself not watching as I can't take it! I can think of one of our skater's in particular that was probably learning 2/axels and triples at about age 9 or 10, as these jumps have been consistent for a few years, and she is now about 13.

I probably haven't told you anything you didn't already know.....You might want to consult with a good sports physician about your concerns. Also, you might want to talk to the coach and limit how many attempts she does of these jumps per session, or limit the time she spends on them per session.

BABYSKATES

02-02-2003, 10:53 AM

Thanks for the advice. I just downloaded information from the USFSA about off ice preparation and fitness for young skaters. I am really going to focus on warming her up and getting her to stretch very well.

Unfortunately, my daughter is already complaining a little about her left knee being a bit sore. She says it doesn't hurt when she takes off for jumps, just when she bends the knee too far (like in a sit spin). I am making her take a couple days off of the ice and icing her knee. She is already going stir crazy (and taking me with her :roll: )

Anyway, I'm icing her knee because I think there may be a little inflamation going on. Any suggestions about how to handle this? It's not really bad or anything but I would like to avoid letting it get bad.

I would love to bring something to the rink and be distracted so as to not see the grand splattering but my daughter hasn't gotten past the watch-me-at-all-times stage yet... Woe is me! Will this jump ever land??? :??

Lee

02-02-2003, 11:30 AM

If you have concerns about joints, musles, etc. take her to see a sports physician, or at the least, an athletic therapist. There are several possible reasons for pain in the knee when bending, some of which are minor and some not minor. Get it checked, just to be sure.

Elsy2

02-02-2003, 02:57 PM

ITA with Lee. It really is a good idea to have an ongoing relationship with a sports physician or therapist that you can feel comfortable with when you need them, and who knows you and your sport.

Believe it or not, someday your daughter may not want you to watch anymore.....;)

dooobedooo

02-02-2003, 03:14 PM

Does she do a lot of stroking, field moves and dance?

If it were my kid I wouldn't want her bashing those jumps every day, and I'd probably have her doing ice dance two days a week inbetween, so as to work stamina, footwork, springy knees, flexibility and presentation.

A lot of sport is mental and you can improve during the rest periods as well as during active practice.

Sounds like she is a very promising skater!

Aussie Willy

02-03-2003, 02:17 AM

I agree about seeing a sports therapist or a physiotherapist. It is wise to look at these things early because it could result in more serious problems later on.

I am much older (36) but I had a problem with my knee that was related to my ankle. My ankle collapses in on itself so it affected my knee alignment.

But aside from that, if your daughter enjoys it then let he go for it. She mustn't have any fear to be able to do that. If she has no fear she won't be tense and just relax on the falls which will make her less susceptible to injury from being tense. Sounds like you are doing the worrying for her. :) I just admire kids who give those things a go because I just like taking it easy and prefer not to fall at all.

Elsy2

02-03-2003, 08:19 AM

Besides the icing of the knee....and getting it checked out, I would definitely tell her "no sitspins!" until the knee is better. I was surprised to hear my daughter's coaches were telling her that her sitspins were too low....very low sitspins can really put a strain on the knee.

There is also a school of thought that the harder jumps are best learned before the onset of a certain "fear factor" that comes into play in the teen years. So in that respect, it can be a good thing to learn the harder jumps early on, as long as you do put limits on overtraining.

So, if this "fear factor" starts in the teen years....it's no wonder I have so much fear as an adult skater!

:roll:

02-03-2003, 08:35 AM

Hi!

I totally agree with Elys2 and Lee.

We are a little controversial in our area because we refuse to allow our daughter to work on her double axel consistently because of the concern over injuries. We will allow her to work on jumps as her coach, dr and kinesiologist work together to determine when timing is right.

Every child is different. Ours is working all doubles which are pretty good except her double lutz...she has that flutz thing going on right now...and she does double single doubles, etc, in combo. She has no trouble with the rotation in the double axel, in fact, has landed it before. but we as her parents are just ultra concerned about the impact her small body is taking, so every now and then she gets to do some harness work on it only, and we will wait and re-evaluate in the summer again to see if its time to really work to train it.

We only allow her to do so many reps of doubles a day,and she often has days off in between where she only does spin work and footwork. She does ballet and cross training and swiss balls for conditioning.

We do not allow her to spend hours throwing herself across the ice, and when she starts working on the jump, her coach teaches her each piece in stages so that the beginning is learned before the takeoff, the takeoff is learned before the rotation,etc, etc.

We took her to Michigan so that another coach could evaluate her as well, along with her base coach, because the director of her training facility had never had someone so small, and he agreed with everything that we believed in...and that sometimes making them wait is a good thing.

Just because they can land it doesn't mean they should.

Her coaches have been very good about our concern with injury. We have seen too many young girls so physically damaged that they are unable to continue. Although we struggle with this, and people think we're crazy, her health is more important than winning. We hope we are doing the right thing for her, as I've said before, and making her wait until her size is more proportionate to the big jumps.

By way of example, one young lady in our club doing all her doubles and starting the 2axel had a really sore hip. Turned out it is her hip flexor. She is now off the ice until summer. You are mentioning problems with the knee. First thing I would do is run to the dr.

Our little one trains in a facility with a kinesiologist on staff who does specialized programs. We are very lucky. We also have a world renowned sports medicine clinic in our area, so her primary care physician is there. And understands what to look for.

No underestimating the power of the sports dr. Together, with coach, athlete and dr, we have tried to create a team that allows our daughter to pursue her dreams while keeping her healthy and safe.

As I said, every child is different. Ours is a 10 year old 48 lb teensy thing. She isn't solid muscle, and she has, according to her kinesiologist 1/2 of 1% body fat....[grin, I only wish I was there...] so as you can see,impact for us is a major concern. It may not be for yours. It might be time for yours to move on, particularly if doubles are consistent.
Hopefully, harness work comes to lesson the impact on landings, and hopefully, she is wearing crash pads to protect her hips and spine.

My concerns do not mean you should be overly concerned. We aren't very popular around our area because we put our athlete's health first. But our coaches deal with it, our facility likes it, and in the end, our child will be the better for it. But it is a struggle.

And with all due respect, just because a coach thinks the child can do it, doesn't mean they should. You need to have a good check up with a dr, maybe find a sports therapist and just check out your athlete. Bodies all develop differently, and what is good for one is not for another. A good sports dr will be able to tell you about your child's physical and muscular development, and help you ward off problems before they start.

Like Elys2 said, warm up is very important. ours is not allowed to work on any jumps without a stretch session.

All this being said, injuries will come and go...mine once had a concussion merely stroking down the ice one day...just slipped and hit her head hard...it took months to get some balance back....and we still get constant checkups...

Well, hope I've helped somewhat. I know my approach is a little different...smile

Elsy2

02-03-2003, 10:04 AM

I applaud and support your approach 100% JD!

My daughter is 14, and her competitive skating is over. She has been diagnosed with spondylolysis....stress fractures in the lower back that will probably never heal. Very common in gymnastics, football, and skating. I can barely express how this feels.....Could I have done anything to prevent this? I don't know...More than likely a genetic weakness in the lower back was present.

So continue to be viligent in protecting your daughter's health skatemoms!

arena_gal

02-03-2003, 10:18 AM

Our club gives out an annual ice pack award at the year end. It's voted by the parents.

rjblue

02-03-2003, 10:20 AM

Unfortunately, my daughter is already complaining a little about her left knee being a bit sore. She says it doesn't hurt when she takes off for jumps, just when she bends the knee too far (like in a sit spin). I am making her take a couple days off of the ice and icing her knee. She is already going stir crazy (and taking me with her )
I bet she has Osgood Schlatters disease. Get her checked out for it right away. My daughter and quite a few other skaters I know have it. It is also common among basketball players. Basically an uneven development of the leg muscles causes a strain on the tendon in the knee. It is a relatively benign condition, but it can be very painful. There are exercises which can really help correct this condition, and a brace can help if it advances too far.

Let me know if your doctor has checked her for this. It is easy to see on an x-ray.

BABYSKATES

02-03-2003, 04:36 PM

I'm taking all of your advice and we're off to see the MD this afternoon. This one specializes in pediatric sports medicine. Thanks to horsing around with Daddy, my daughter fell on her sore knee this weekend and it is now REALLY sore.

There is a physical therapist at our rink who I will consult with as well.

My daughter is the opposite of yours, JD. She is built like a teenager (no puberty stuff, though). She is on the tall side of average height and she is solid as a rock - slender but with quite well developed muscles. She had a huge very early growth spurt but has since been a slow grower. She does get regular physicals and her MD checks her joints but maybe it is time to do her physicals with an MD - sports medicine specialist. We'll see how this one works out. Unfortunately, it is a man and my daughter would sooner die than show her - well...nothing! She has nothing to show but she sure does not want any man to see it, even if he is the doctor. She fell on the ice about 8 months ago and hit her back and the back of her head. She said her fingers were tingling so I took her to the emergency room. The doctor tried to look at her shoulders and she clung to her shirt front to make sure he didn't see a thing. In short, I better get looking for a female!

Regarding stroking and moves, my daughter does stroke and work on her MIFs prior to her jump workout. She has some tests to take so I make sure she goes through her moves at least 3 times early in the workout before she gets tired. Her coaches are really pushing her to thoroughly warm up and to stroke for a while before skating.

Elsy2, you hit it on the head, my daughter is fearless. Her coach told her that he wants her to get her double axel for this season. We are in a very tough region and she'll need it to get out of regionals. I told her that I'm happy her coach has goals for her and that we have goals, too which are to have fun, make friends, learn cool things and skate the best she can. I asked her what she thought would happen if she didn't make it to Junior Nationals. She said, "I guess nothing." I told her that if she didn't make it out of regionals, our goals would still be the same. Then she said, "I'm still going to get that double axel and go to Junior Nationals." I'm not such a good amature psychologist...;)

Andie

02-06-2003, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by Elsy2
My daughter is 14, and her competitive skating is over. She has been diagnosed with spondylolysis....stress fractures in the lower back that will probably never heal. Very common in gymnastics, football, and skating. I can barely express how this feels.....Could I have done anything to prevent this? I don't know...More than likely a genetic weakness in the lower back was present.

So continue to be viligent in protecting your daughter's health skatemoms!

Sorry to hear about your daughter. :(
I'll be 18 a few weeks from now and have been ice skating since I was 15, so I started later than some of the kids mentioned in this thread. I'm not very advanced yet, partly due to the fact that I took awhile off and am trying to catch up.

Anyway, one major reason I'll be hesitant to try jumps, especially the harder jumps, is that I have scoliosis (lateral curve of the spine) and a rod and screws in my spine. I had severe scoliosis until I had spinal fusion surgery on it when I was 13. The two skating instructors I've had think ice dancing would be best for me, if I don't want or cannot do jumps because of my back condition. That way, I don't have to TOTALLY give up my enjoyment of skating. My spine specialist has also said I should do something not strenuous on my spine, and I assume ice dance is less strain than doing jumps.

When I was younger I did gymnastics for a short time before giving it up - since then, I've heard it would be worse for me (and others too) than skating.

Elsy2

02-06-2003, 06:44 AM

Sounds like you have overcome a lot of adversity in your young life, Andie. I agree gymnastics is probably worse for back conditions, as there is much more backward extension elements. The force on jump landings in skating is huge as well....

Ice dancing is a wonderful discipline, and I do wish my daughter had more interest in it. She has passed the first 3 dances, and is prepared to pass the next 3. She is also preparing to test Novice moves later this month. I am hopeful that she will be able to get her gold in moves eventually. Right now she is just not ready to commit to dance...as jumping is what she loves. We just don't think she'll be able to train for competition anymore. I'd like to see her try synchro too, I think she'd really enjoy it.

Good luck with your skating, and thanks for posting!

dbny

02-06-2003, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by rjblue
I bet she has Osgood Schlatters disease. Get her checked out for it right away. My daughter and quite a few other skaters I know have it. It is also common among basketball players. Basically an uneven development of the leg muscles causes a strain on the tendon in the knee. It is a relatively benign condition, but it can be very painful. There are exercises which can really help correct this condition, and a brace can help if it advances too far.

I think she is a bit too young for Osgood's. My daughter had it too. It is benign if treated, but can result in serious damage if ignored. Osgood's is an inflamation of the bump at the top of the tibia (tibia tubercule) that can occur in adolescence because that part of the bone is cartilege until puberty. It begins to calcify from the surface downwards. If the muscular pull on it is too much (often due to a growth spurt coupled with athletics), then the newly formed bone can actually be torn off. Typically, the tibia tubercule will be swollen, red and sore. If in doubt, push on it with your thumb. If it hurts, suspect Osgood's. Rjblue is right that exercises can help.

rjblue

02-06-2003, 12:25 PM

That's a better explanation of Osgoods.

My doctor looked it up after she diagnosed my daughter and showed me where it said "maintain sporting activity". There weren't any recommendations of therapy there, just ice and aspirin. So it was almost a year before we took her to a sports medicine doctor. He put her off the ice completely and said she could never skate again because her tendon might completely detach from her tibia. Needless to say my daughter was heartbroken, and I felt he had given a different diagnosis than he would have to a promising hockey player (bad vibes!).

So I got a second opinion from a doctor who has worked with olympic level athletes. She said that the chances of separation were very remote and the pain would be so severe that one wouldn't push that far anyway, and that as long as my daughter could tolerate the pain she could go back on the ice. She prescribed a brace and physiotherapy, as well as aspirin and ice for inflammation. But in the meantime my daughter had lost 4 months ice time. My daughter will have a permanent lump on her tibia, which wouldn't be there if she had done the exercises when this first began.

The exercises to promote even development of the muscles are very simple and only took a few minutes each day. I wish this was taught to all competitive level skaters at an early age. It would have saved my daughter a lot of pain.

BABYSKATES

02-06-2003, 01:17 PM

My daughter does not have Osgood Schlatters, thank goodness. She also does not seem to have anything more serious. The doctor thinks it is just irritation from not warming up and stretching enough prior to use. It is somewhat sore still but has improved in the last 2 days. I was given a couple of passive range of motion exercises to do prior to her warm up. This seems to help a lot. She still isn't jumping much. Yesterday she did one of each double and no attempts at the double axel.

According to her doctor, she is just fine to move on to the more strenuous jumps. She is well muscled and her joints seem to be fine. Even though she is just 9, her growth has slowed a lot. The doctor seems to think that she had her 9 year old growth spurt early (4 1/2 inches between ages 8 and 9) and that she'll likely be a slow grower from here. He said that it isn't a scientific fact but in his experience, kids that are in the little people sports (gymnastics and figure skating primarily) tend to be slow growers anyway. He thinks it's all the pounding and repairing the body constantly has to do. These kids tend to be smaller than their parents. Of course there are exceptions to this. I kind of have my own theory about that which goes right along with what he said, anyway. That's fine with me since my daughter is very tall already although if she stops growing soon, she'll be too short. I do hope she grows over 5 feet tall at least. Boy am I hard to please! :roll:

I spoke with my child's coach and told him that I trust him completely but I just wanted to know what it was that determined that a child was ready to start the double axel and triples. Her coach said that he looks at all kinds of factors but the biggest ones are demonstrated consistent proper technique on the lower jumps, strength enough to learn the jump properly, need to know based on competitive level and ability to concentrate. He doesn't want to try to teach someone who will more than likely get hurt or discouraged because they are not physically or mentally ready. He also said that at the rate things are going in women's skating, my daughter will need a triple axel and quads to be a top senior. OY.

Anyway, the news is all good and it looks like it won't be too long until my daughter will be back up to full strength. I have gotten a lot of feedback on this subject and I have concluded that we are in no hurry to get the double axel but lots of children at my daughter's age are working on it with good success. I won't prevent my child from working on the jumps but I will impose limits on the amount of time spent on these jumps. I'm very glad I asked.

02-06-2003, 01:27 PM

Congrats Babyskates on checking it all out with your daughter and your doctor...grin...

Mine had her little growth spurt too....smile...I don't think it helped any...

Continued success to you and your athlete....

thumbyskates

02-07-2003, 02:44 AM

I was reading this post, and realized I totally have a different view, being the skater and the daughter of an "overprotective" rink mom. As I was reading this it brought me back to my younger days. I should mention I never was, nor never will be a competitive skater. I don't have the in between stuff...the spins and all that jazz. I think I started skating too late. But that's not the point.

The point is I'm a 17 year old non-competitive skater who can only be left with what if? If only I'd been pushed harder...if only I'd been made to skate more, or made to try harder doubles. And now? I'm left with a hardworking spirit and nothing more than a 7th place finish at non-competitive provincials in Interpretive, while the 10 year olds I skate with are competing at real nationals, and bringing home bronze. Jealous? Yes...yes, I am. True, I skate for the joy of the sport (or else I would have quit and bought a car long ago)...but I still can wish.

The point is...as a 13 year old, I almoooost had all my doubles (except the axel). Some were cheated, and the double toe was ugly. But they were almost there. I've always been little and underweight - still am. But at that point, my mom said no more - she was worried I'd hurt myself and wreck my future. Well...she was right about one thing - I did wreck my future. But not letting me work on my doubles as much, I lost them all...today I can sort of land an ackward, cheated double salchow. And hey! I'm STILL injured. It's not from not warming up, or because I worked on doubles too early - I was thirteen and through puberty. Today my knees have torn miniscuses and I've had multiple surgeries.

So maybe if my mom had pushed me just a little more. What if she had said okay...work on triples? I probably still would have ended up with bad knees...and maybe a gold medal or provincial title. For me, it'd be worth it.

I'm not saying don't warm up properly...do take all precaution to prevent injury....but they're bound to happen anyways. Skating wouldn't be skating, without sacrifice. I think that if you're not ready to work on triples, you wouldn't be landing clean doubles. Wait till your strong enough...but its my theory that if you have clean doubles, why stop there? Sooner or later your child will grow, and they'll probably lose everything anyways. Let them make a decision...believe it or not, they'll know when they're hurt, and they will stop. It's hard on a skater, when their mom becomes their coach and tells them what to do. I can assure you that. I've been there done that...and now I'm left with nothing more than a cheated double salchow.

Kortney

Mrs Redboots

02-07-2003, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by thumbyskates
The point is I'm a 17 year old non-competitive skater who can only be left with what if? If only I'd been pushed harder...if only I'd been made to skate more, or made to try harder doubles. And now? I'm left with a hardworking spirit and nothing more than a 7th place finish at non-competitive provincials in Interpretive, while the 10 year olds I skate with are competing at real nationals, and bringing home bronze. Jealous? Yes...yes, I am. True, I skate for the joy of the sport (or else I would have quit and bought a car long ago)...but I still can wish. The trouble is, Kortney, that it's very hard for us parents. We didn't discover skating until our daughter was 14, but when she was 8 or 9, she had the potential to be a superb swimmer, if pushed. We didn't push her - didn't find a club, didn't get her extra training, or anything. Maybe we should have - but I found that this wasn't a decision I could, or wanted to, make for her. I would not have been prepared to haul her out of bed in the mornings to go and practice, etc, and all the things that sporting mothers need to do to get a competitive athlete out of it.

My brother and sister-in-law went a different route, and their daughter, at 16, is representing her country at Junior level in her sport. Maybe they could do it, but I know the child resented the pushing and endless hard work. Now, of course, it's all been worthwhile, and she is more than ready to do what it takes - but four or five years ago it was a different story.

Anyway, you will be 18 soon and qualify for Young Adult status, so you can start your competitive life then!

BABYSKATES

02-07-2003, 11:38 AM

Kortney, thanks for your perspective. Your point is well taken. The problem is that I also agree with Mrs. Redboots. It is very hard to be the parent in this situation because, like it or not, we have the responsibility to make sure that what our children do is good for them. We want to try to prevent injuries, especially the kind that will cause our children to have arthritic joints or pain into their adulthood. That is our obligation. I'm not trying to be the coach, just the mom.

My little one is still little, just nine. She's not ready to make her own decisions about when she should or shouldn't skate. By the time she is ready, she will be a teenager and maybe it will be too late to do things the way she would have liked but that is the risk we have to take to do what is best for our child.

I'm trying not to be too overprotective but I have to be reasonably protective. My child continues to love ice skating and she excels at it so I am supportive. If I had my total way about things, she wouldn't skate, to be honest. This sport is hard on parents both financially and emotionally.

One other thing, you'll see when you are a parent. It's very difficult to be right, ever...

Forgive your mom. She did what she thought was best for the child she loves.

AshBugg44

02-07-2003, 12:49 PM

a 7 year old at my rink is already doing 2flips.

JDC1

02-07-2003, 01:34 PM

I'm not a parent but I do skate in a free style session where 2 young kids skate, they both have all their singles, the girl some doubles (the boy is working on doubles) and I never see either of them warm up or cool down. Their sessions are grueling, they go through program time and time again and do their jumps OVER AND OVER. I just wonder how their little bodies are going to be in the long run. They're both acceptable spinners, okay on foot work, terrible spirals, and basic skating skills are okay, maybe they do their warm up and cool down at home, who knows, I hope so. I just cringe when I see these kids and some teen girls whacking into the ice time and time again.

sk8ing is lyfe

02-08-2003, 08:37 PM

osgood slaughters (sp)

I had it for two years. OUCH it hurt! i used to get sharp sharp pain all down my leg from my knee... if i hit the bump on the knee, even very slightly, it brought tears to my eyes and i had to drom to the floor.

I tried knee braces and supports, and they didnt work.

My solution:

ICE!!!! lots and lots of ice!!! especially after practice.

WARM UPS- extensive warm ups, avoiding impact, such as jumping or skipping or running. When on the ice, i usually stroked for about 5 minutes, before spins and THEN jumps. Once i got it warmed up, i couldnt stop for more than about 30 seconds, otherwise then would tighten and cramp up again.

I did a lot of walkthroughs!!!!!/ not so much jumping.

I really got Osgood badly because i do track and field, basketball( for fun) and cross country. (and dont forget skating!!!)

it eventually went away( i dont remember it doing so, because it was almost as if i started getting used to the pain?!?!!?!?!?)

So patience is important....

hope this helps....

mikawendy

02-09-2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by sk8ing is lyfe
osgood slaughters (sp)

I had it for two years. OUCH it hurt! i used to get sharp sharp pain all down my leg from my knee... if i hit the bump on the knee, even very slightly, it brought tears to my eyes and i had to drom to the floor.

I tried knee braces and supports, and they didnt work.

My solution:

ICE!!!! lots and lots of ice!!! especially after practice.

WARM UPS- extensive warm ups, avoiding impact, such as jumping or skipping or running. When on the ice, i usually stroked for about 5 minutes, before spins and THEN jumps. Once i got it warmed up, i couldnt stop for more than about 30 seconds, otherwise then would tighten and cramp up again.

So patience is important....

Ouchie, sk8ing is lyfe--Osgood can hurt! I'm glad to hear it went away eventually and that you had a workout strategy in the mean time.

I had a ballet student who had Osgood one time. It's really tough because it's something that occurs with growing--some teens get it while they're growing and they can't do anything to prevent it.

You must have been to a doctor for it. That's good, because I've known a lot of dancers, runners, and skaters who just skate through "bad pain" and then later wind up with a serious chronic injury, such as recurring stress fractures. I'm not a parent, but I would imagine that it would be hard to see your kid in constant pain and wondering when it will go away.

02-10-2003, 08:25 AM

thumbyskates,

its nice to get the perspective of skaters themselves. Keeping my daughter back a little is one of the hardest things as a parent I've had to do.

We aren't all trying to be overprotective rink moms. Some of us are only there as long as our little ones enjoy the sport. And its hard for us to watch girls year after year end their promising talent from overwork and injury.

Like Babyskates said, its just as hard to be a parent. Mine is only 10, and very tiny at that. She's landed her double axel before, and she will again. But consistency takes time. We didn't want the constant pounding in the jump before her body was ready. And we, her doctors, and her coaches think having all her doubles and combos was a much better goal this year, and it has paid off. Other than flutzing her 2 lutz....everything is right on track....We didn't hold her back out only out of fear of injury---we consulted all the right people including a consultation with a prominent US coach for advice. And it might seem obsessive, but yes, she is limited to the amount of time spent working double combos...for no other reason that if she can land them, why overwork the muscles that need to spend time on spins and edges???

And like I said, some of us have a different way of doing things for different reasons, but we felt we, like Babyskates, had a daughter that was too young to make these kinds of decisions for herself. We are in no hurry. When you have a 10 yr old that looks like she's 8, and genetics that indicate she isn't going to grow or gain weight beyond a certain point, you've got some working room..some of it simply because she looks so much younger than she actually is, so, sometimes, these things are all considerations in making them wait.

Although I agree that the bar has been upped for single ladies, it doesn't mean that we should all run out and start pounding little bodies into the ground. It is a very individual choice, and the way you feel about it, Thumbyskates, is the worst fear we have our daughter might feel some day. I guess our consolation is that we have everyone in our corner while we are doing it--hoping to save her body for a future in our sport.

It might seem illogical with the way we are approaching it, but ours does have long terms goals and dreams. As parents, it is our responsibility to give her the tools necessary to get her there. One of them is a fit body.

I guess as parents, we just see it a little differently.....Thank you skaters, for sharing your thoughts with us.....it is certainly a decision we struggle with every year when determining the next year's goals..

BABYSKATES

02-19-2003, 11:36 AM

My daughter's knee is as good as new. It took her a week or so to stop favoring the knee and to trust it. We never knew for sure what was going on with the knee but I got an idea watching her program. All of a sudden she is having big problems centering her camel spin. One of the parents told me to take her home and measure her. She grew almost an inch! No wonder her joints, especially her knee hurt. She is a fairly slow grower at this point and I never considered a growth spurt as a source of her pain. The doctor I took her to has no records of her so they didn't mention that she had grown. She is such a string bean right now. I had to laugh. I must have been blind not to see it.

We have limited the number of attempts at jumps and the jumps actually look better. In fact, her whole work out looks better. The double axel is still dreadful but I keep reminding myself that we are in no hurry to get it and hopefully in this time of laying the foundation for the jump, she is learning proper technique and will avoid injury because of that.

The USFSA has a book out about off ice preparation. Another parent was telling me about it. I'll have to find it. It talks about how much to work on things. It's nice that they are recognizing that we should limit certain areas of practice for our children.

sk8er1964

02-19-2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by BABYSKATES
The USFSA has a book out about off ice preparation. Another parent was telling me about it. I'll have to find it. It talks about how much to work on things. It's nice that they are recognizing that we should limit certain areas of practice for our children.

There's a book out there called Off Ice Conditioning for On Ice Performance. It's very good (and may be the one you are speaking of). I got my copy at Amazon.com.

BABYSKATES

02-19-2003, 03:06 PM

Thanks. That will make it easier for me to find! :D

Lee

02-19-2003, 06:20 PM

Something to keep an eye out for with knees in pubescent kids is Osgoode-Schlatter's syndrome. I've seen several kids with this over the years -- apparently the bones grow too fast for the muscle to really keep up and the insertion points start to 'tear away' a bit from the bones, especially shin muscles. Running and jumping seem to exacerbate the condition; rest (and making it through puberty) seem to be the only 'cures' for the condition.

Affected knees are often very tender and have varying degrees of swelling. Jumping and running really seem to make the pain worse. Since these symptoms can describe many different ailments, it's always best to get it checked.

A friend of Brat Daughter's had it and was able to keep skating by wearing those pull-on knee braces and avoiding jumping when the pain was too intense. My son had it and was able to continue playing hockey (the gliding motions of skating didn't bother him), but was unable to participate in running activities in PE.

Judy

02-20-2003, 06:55 AM

I have a daughter who is 14 years old who is a competitive skater. I have to tell you it is really hard on them when they start to grow and the body parts start to appear. She had all her doubles by age ten except the dreaded double axel which she had a 12 . Now with all the growing she has done over the last two years there are days when she is still fighting with that darn double axle. I think it all depends on the child. Some get it quick others I have seen it take up to three years. I know for a fact that some of the greateset female skaters it took them 3 years to learn the jump

BABYSKATES

02-20-2003, 11:45 AM

I have frequently heard that some of the ladies with the best double axels in the sport took a LONG time to learn the jump. The double axel doesn't look that hard. So why is it? I mean it seems simple enough to put another rotation on a jump you already know. The double jumps came relatively easily to my daughter. She says all you have to do to double a jump is to enter it faster, jump higher and pull it in. I ask her what is different about the double axel and she says, "I don't know." She's not frustrated with it or anything. She just keeps whacking at it. I go to the snack bar for coffee during double axel practice time...

I have had the opportunity to talk to lots of parents on this subject lately. My child has always been relatively precocious in this sport so parents of older more advanced kids often talk to me. Recently one parent of a child who had very early success (triple lutz at 12, success at Nationals, international assignments etc.) gave me some advice. Her child ended up injured and had major set backs in the sport after being one of the "golden children" who were supposed to be the future of the sport. She told me to never let the coaches, no matter how good and reputable they may be, push my child faster than she is really ready to go. Even if she CAN do it, it might not be what's best in the long run. She said to never let her skate injured. NO skating in knee braces on sore joints. Don't risk injury by trying to push through to big competitions. She said she regrets that she let her child do that and now her daughter is just trying to be competitive at all. She went from being the one to watch to being one forgotten. She said, "If it's not the Olympics, is it really that big a competition? It's not worth it." She said she wishes she realized that regionals and sectionals are only important for that year and the next year you have to start again anyway. I am taking all of this good advice in and really trying to be mellow. I am letting my child take it at what ever pace she wants as long as she is trying her best, having fun and keeping a good work ethic.

Judy, we don't yet have any new body parts but heredity says she will get them (but fairly late). If a little new height messes things up, what will a whole new, unfamiliar body do? I hope I still have you to talk to when that time comes!
;)

02-20-2003, 01:02 PM

Babyskates:

[i am standing up and clapping for your friend at the rink.....]

being the golden child is not all its cracked up to be....

on growth, must say I can't help.....big grin...

good luck on the 2axel...if she is stressed, maybe laying off it a little will help....if she senses you're stressed, she might be too...

ran across this great book: Games Girls Play:Understanding and Guiding Your Young Female Athlete......wow!!! I had no idea what could go on in my little one's head....

and whats so great about the book is that it was written by a skater now a sports psychologist, who works with gymnasts and skaters....

BABYSKATES

02-20-2003, 04:51 PM

Thanks for the tip about the book JD. I'll be looking for that one when I go to the bookstore this evening. (Where I relax!)

We're doing ok. My daughter knows her health comes first. I know she is blessed with great coaching and is learning properly plus she's only been on it for a very short while and stopped to let her knee get strong again.

One of the best things about being 9 is that everything is fun. Falling doesn't hurt much (especially padded up like you are "going to the moon" - to quote my daughter) and is no big deal and your friends think you are a super star when you skate. If it takes 3 years, that's fine. (OK, I'll be deathly sick of it if it takes 3 years but it takes as long as it takes, right?) Our intent was always for skating to be fun. Now that we're on big skills and have top coaching, the expectation is that she will work hard. She had to promise that before starting with these coaches. Still, our number 1 family goal is HAVE FUN! If this goal is not achieved, she has to quit!

Judy

02-20-2003, 10:14 PM

I am glad to hear that you encourage her to have fun!!! This skaters put alot of pressure on themselves they do not need it from their parents. Especially if they are profectionists which most competitive skaters are. I never let my daughter train if she has a injury. It is not worth it. These girls get more bruises and bangs than anyone could imagine. last year my daughter had a injury to her hip from falling it got quite nasty to the point at Junior Nationals the physiotherapist requested to see me to show me how bruised and swollen she was. Becaus eit was on her bottom which at 13 you never get to see I had no idea how bad it was. her leg had actually turned black from the blood pooling down her leg from the injury. We did not want her to skate and if I would have lnown it was this bad, nationals or no Nationals I would have made her stay home. But already being there and seeing there was really not much I could do or her coaches . She was skating no matter what anybody said. She has healed well but it took a long time. I really have a problem with people thinking this kids are little stars at such a young age. Things happen ,things change let these poor girls mature into beatiful young women. and if they are meant to be the cream of the crop , they will be the cream of the crop when the timing is right. I have not seen to many young girls that wewre superstars when they were young make it all the way to the top. I