Rink Liability

[Kelli]

At today's General Skate, a little girl fell and knocked out one of her adult teeth. After a lot of searching and frustration, we found it (needle in a haystack), but I have a few questions about how this situation would be handled at other rinks because I believe it was poorly handled at my rink.

1. Should they have taken all the skaters off the ice to search for the tooth? It was a crowded session, and the woman at the desk would not let me clear the ice to give the girl's mother a chance to look for the tooth.

2. Is there any requirement that anyone be trained in first aid at your rink? I doubt there was anyone in the rink with first aid training (mine expired a few weeks ago). When I cut my foot in a rink at home, there was someone there with (very thorough) first aid training who cleaned the cut and put butterfly band-aids on. My mother picked me up and I wound up needing 6 stitches, but I hate to think what would have happened if I had been at my rink at school, with no one trained to help and my parents 200 miles away. (Actually, my best friend is an EMT, so I would have made him come get me, but that's not really the point to my question.)

3. What kind of rink liability is there? Or for workers at the rink? We all know really serious injuries can happen, though most are just bumps and bruises, but what happens if a kid who hit his head or hurt her back is made to move? As a rink guard, am I at fault?

4. (Last question, directed at Figureskates) Where the h*** were you today? Would have been nice to have someone else around. And, is the new guard totally useless? He didn't seem to particularly care about the situation, or even notice it. Since I don't have a guard jacket, it would seem that he should have made some effort to at least look involved as he was wearing a jacket.

[Figureskates]

Kelli:

I work nights this weekend. I got off at 7 am this morning and I am back at work now. I usually do not work the Saturday the weekends that I work nights.....

Who was the girl?

[dbny]

I just earned a certificate in Ice Arena Management from ISI. According to what I recall:

Rinks carry immense amounts of liability insurance, but I would have to look it up to be exact. There are insurance companies that specialize in insurance for rinks & coaches. Rink liability does cover their employees. There can also be issues about whether the employees were properly trained.

I think I would have cleared the ice, or at least coned off the immediate area. If the ice is very crowded, the tooth could actually get kicked around in the shuffle to get off, OTOH, a hazard is created by people skating around looking down at the ice.

The fact that there were guards present who were not identifiable, and not enough guards present is not good management practice.

Many rink managers will not allow any employee to provide any first aid at all, even a band aid. Their feeling is that it exposes them to further liability. Furthermore, some rinks will not provide a copy of their accident report. The insurance agent who gave the ISI course on liability felt that was not a moral stand to take, and, of course, a subpoena could free up the report if necessary.

In a lawsuit (and anyone can sue for anything) everyone involved is usually named, so as a guard, yes, you could be held liable. That's what insurance is for. You obviously know better than to move a person who might have a spinal injury. Stand your ground if you are asked to do so.

Finally, you might want to inquire as to your coverage under your rink's liability policy.

[JS]

Originally posted by dbny
I just earned a certificate in Ice Arena Management from ISI. ...

The fact that there were guards present who were not identifiable, and not enough guards present is not good management practice.


I wonder if it is mandatory for a rink to have quards present during public sessions or if this is just something optional? The rink where I skate NEVER have any guards present (identifiable or not).

Also, they allow high level skaters to practice their programs (triple jumps and stuff) during these public skates. Which have caused a number of collisions with recreational skaters, though no serious injuries yet.

It doesn't look like wise management to me. Altough the local management doesn't seem to be conserned at all.

Is this a common practice? Has anybody else experiensed similar sutuation? Do you think anything can be done about it?

[dbny]

How a rink is managed depends on many different circumstances. First, if the rink is publicly owned and publicly run, there are probably hard and fast rules. The ones that I have skated at have been among the best run. Rinks that are publicly owned and privately run can vary considerably, but usually have some rules that apply, such as the level of insurance required and the number of public sessions required. Privately owned and run rinks run the gamut from very poor management, including risk management, to excellent management in all respects.

I skate at one rink that is publicly owned and run and find it to be managed very well, with the best staffing, best trained and most alert staff of any rink I have ever been to. Another rink, also publicly owned, but privately run, in the same city as the first, is very poorly run, with untrained and irresponsible guards. The only thing this place seems to care about is that the waivers are signed and the ice is cleared before the zam comes out. People skate completely out of control and the guards are busy chatting with each other. A third rink I skate at is privately owned and run. The owner is a bit flakey, to say the least, and has driven out several clubs and turned over the skating school several times also. The guards are not very alert there either, and the management does things like cancel a public session or freestyle session without notice. Too bad that such wonderful resources are so often in the hands of people who don't know or care much about what they are doing.

[Andie]

Oh my! That poor kid.... 8O :(

At my main rink, and secondary rink, I've never noticed any guards. My primary rink seems poorly organized, from my experiences, so I'm sure in an emergency-type situation they'd probably handle it badly.

[dooobedooo]

Poor little girl ... I have seen plenty of broken legs, ankles, wrists, in public sessions - generally overweight unfit young adults. The little kids usually seem to be able to fall over endlessly without injury.

But I have never seen anybody lose a tooth (except in agressive ice hockey practice). Will they be able to re-implant the tooth again?

[Yazmeen]

If I'm around and an accident happens, my group usually yells for me, and the rink is aware I'm a doctor and they have no problem with me going over and having a look. I've never done any formal treatment beyond an ice bag, but I've put my "two cents" into the incident report which they always reliably write up.

I'm protected by "Good Samaritan" laws here in the state so I don't worry about liability myself--in fact, it would be worse for me to ignore the situation. How would you feel if your kid fell and broke a bone and there was a doctor present and he or she didn't identify themselves and at least offer assistance until the emergency crew arrives or the child can be taken safetly for treatment? I'm more at risk doing nothing than doing something.

I also ALWAYS have one formal rule. If EMT/Paramedics come for a situation, I'll ID myself and assist if they ask, but otherwise I don't inferfere. The EMT knows more than me in these situations, (I'm an imaging specialist) and they are in charge. I've seen too many docs who arrogantly try to take charge where they have no business doing so.

[Debbie S]

Generally, rinks make people sign waivers (at least, my rink does for group lesson students) that say you recognize ice skating can cause injury, etc., etc., and that you won't hold the rink responsible. But, and I'm not a lawyer so I'm basing this on things I've heard, rinks can be held liable for cases of gross negligence. Basically, if you fall while ice skating and break your leg, you can't sue saying the ice was too hard or something. But if a rink fails to take routine safety precautions, or do everything in its power to lessen the severity of the situation (like clearing the ice to look for a lost tooth so it can be reattached), then they can be held responsible for damages.

The rink where I take lessons does not have a good guard system for public sessions. I use the freestyle sessions, so crazy, out-of-control skaters aren't a problem. But when I went to a few public sessions last summer, there were kids (boys in the 8 to 11-yr. range) who got hold of those metal bars and starting flinging them around on the ice, through the coned-off circle, and ignored the cone boundaries while they were skating. I finally went over and yelled at a guard to watch them and enforce safety rules. The guard gave me a halfhearted response and basically skated around chatting w/ the other guard without really watching what was going on. At one point, both guards left the rink area so it was "unmanned". If something had happened during that time, the rink could have been held responsible b/c it failed to take routine precautions and enforce its own rules.

Another rink where I sometimes skate has very diligent guards that really police the circle area. They tell everyone as they're stepping on the ice to stay out of the circle unless they're figure skaters and they really watch what's going on.

I hope the little girl is OK.

[dbny]

Originally posted by Debbie S
Generally, rinks make people sign waivers (at least, my rink does for group lesson students) that say you recognize ice skating can cause injury, etc., etc., and that you won't hold the rink responsible.

I asked about this specifically in the ISI certification program I attended. What the insurance specialist told us was that the best a waiver can do for liability is demonstrate that the skater was aware of the risks, so you are absolutely right.

[dbny]

I was giving a lesson at a public session today, when a child fell hard right next to us in the center, hitting the back of her head on the ice. She was crying up a storm, and there wasn't a guard in sight! I went to her and asked if her mom were there, but didn't dare try to help her up. Her mom showed up before the idiot guards, and did sit her up and take her off the ice. My little student was pretty freaked out by it. I reminded her that her helmet would protect her in such a fall, but I'm afraid the accident just rattled her too much. The center was coned off for lessons and figure skating, but the guards never enforce it at all. They are among the worst ever.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by dbny
I asked about this specifically in the ISI certification program I attended. What the insurance specialist told us was that the best a waiver can do for liability is demonstrate that the skater was aware of the risks, so you are absolutely right. We were discussing this very thing yesterday morning, when some of us were skating and I don't think anybody qualified in first-aid was officially there (here, our coaches take first-aid courses as part of their training, and the rink has other qualified first-aiders around, too), although a skating mother said she was a nurse! And we agreed that even with waivers, one could possibly still sue - but since the rink carries insurance, the Figure Club carries insurance and we, the skaters, are insured through our membership of NISA, we weren't sure who to sue. Not that we would, of course, but if.

[blue111moon]

t my rink, the manager and assistant manager are cedrtified in first aid, and at leat two of the other employees are EMTs so there's always someone around in case of accident on public sessions. They're pretty good, too, and the first aid rook is well-stocked with ice packs, banages and even a back board/stretcher and blankets. Of course, there's also a top-notch trauma hospital less than a mile down the road, too. Location is everything.

The skating club instructors all take first-aid courses and most of us have small first-aid kits in our bags or pockets. The group lesson director keeps a basic kit on the hockey bench during classes and there's a more complete kit back in the stoage locker.

My rink isn't the greatest facility but the people make up for it.

I'm not an expert but the way I understand it, USFSA and PSA insurance covers members in the case of being sued by the injured party. Rink insurance covers the rink employees. I was told, however, that the waver skaters sign doesn't apply if you can prove that negligence on the rink's part CAUSED the accident to occur. I stopped skating at a rink (now closed) because the floor boards around the ice were so rotten with damp that I was afraid I'd fall through and management did nothing about them. I was told that if I had fallen through the floor and injured my foot then the rink would have been liable. But if I slipped and sprained my foot on the ice, they wouldn't have been because that's one of the risks of sport.

[Black Sheep]

As a coach in training, I find this thread disturbing but informative and interesting, so thanks for sharing.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by Black Sheep
As a coach in training, I find this thread disturbing but informative and interesting, so thanks for sharing. The coaches here all carry enormous amounts of insurance. It's one of the reasons we don't have unqualified coaches, as they couldn't get the insurance they need other than through BITA or NISA (or both; I'm not sure who actually insures them).

As for first aid, I was chatting to my favourite skate guard last night, who was on duty, and commented that he was one of the very few guards who ever seemed to do his job properly. He agreed that all too many of them just want to do their own skating and/or strike poses on the ice - I've shouted at a fair few in my time when they've been intimidating - and said that sometimes they've asked him to go into the skate hire while they do guard duty. Which he always refuses to do, not because he wants to skate - he just potters round keeping an eye open - but because he is often the sole first-aider on duty and, as he said, what good can he be if he's stuck in the skate hire. That is not where people are going to hurt themselves! I do wish more guards had this man's attitude!

[Yazmeen]

Even, me who volunteer assists with beginner skaters, carries ISI insurance. I wouldn't be allowed to assist without it.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by Yasmeen
Even, me who volunteer assists with beginner skaters, carries ISI insurance. I wouldn't be allowed to assist without it.Yes, you would have to. One of the benefits of NISA membership is that you get personal insurance as part of the package - maddeningly, though, it doesn't apply if you skate abroad! Grrrr.