question: open vs. closed hips

[mikawendy]

Hi everyone! Can you help me with this? What does it mean when someone refers to an "open hip" or a "closed hip" in skating? Does that mean whether the leg in question is rotated outward or inward in the hip socket? Or does this mean where the hip is in relation to the shoulders?

I've heard it a lot recently but can't really picture it in my head. Specifically, my instructor tells me that as I finish doing a FI closed mohawk, as I'm lifting the now-free leg, my "hip is too open." So that means my leg is turned out (rotated outward) too much, or that the hip on my free leg is too far behind me?

Thanks!

[love2sk8]

Hey! I hope I can help you out with this one...usually when my coach tells me that my hip is too open, its becuase my knee is facing towards the side, causing my hip to open, meaning my legs/hips aren't parallel with each other. However, different people have their opinion of what an open hip is...just keep your hips parallel to your shoulders, along with your knees! No knees should be out to the side of your frame. Hope this helps??

[ChristianeDK]

I've got a question too: What's the difference between 'open' and 'closed' mohawks? It's got something to do with where you have your free foot, right? Or...? :?:

[love2sk8]

I'm thinking its how tight you keep your feet to one another....an open one would be to extend the foot, then do a mohawk. A closed one would be keeping your free foot tucked close to your skating foot. But I'm not positive...does anyone know for sure?

[melanieuk]

Ok stand straight with your arms at your sides and both feet and knees pointing straight ahead.
Your hips are closed.

Now raise one knee/thigh, straight up at 12 o clock so that the thigh is horizontal to the floor.
Your hips are still closed.

To open you hips, turn the lifted knee outwards (left knee turn to the left, or right knee out to the right side) to one o clock or anything past that.

So if you can imagine one or other legs turned out (to the side, or even turned out at the front or back), this is equivalent to the skating term "open hips".

You must open your hips in a spiral to get the free leg's toe pointed out and upwards.

[dbny]

Originally posted by love2sk8
I'm thinking its how tight you keep your feet to one another....an open one would be to extend the foot, then do a mohawk. A closed one would be keeping your free foot tucked close to your skating foot. But I'm not positive...does anyone know for sure?

Open and closed are determined by the hip position, as explained above. If the hips are both forward, then the position is closed. Turning even one hip out, opens them. This is reflected in the freeleg position, causing confusion.

All F Mohawks are technically open, even though the freeleg may take the ice with the heel to the instep of the skating leg so that the feet are close together. It actually takes more turnout to do a FI or FO Mohawk with the feet heel to instep than with heel to heel. If the freeleg takes the ice with the hips in closed position, then the Mohawk is closed. The only Mohawks that I can think of that are really closed are the BI (Sr. moves) that rotates like a BI three turn, and the BO in which the heel of the freeleg is placed to the instep of the skating foot.

[wannask8]

mika, love2sk8’s definition describes what I think of when I talk about a hip being “open.” As a beginner, I am just becoming cognizant of the difference this makes in performance in certain basic skills now that my coach has pointed it out.

-- wannask8

[jenlyon60]

Originally posted by dbny
All F Mohawks are technically open, even though the freeleg may take the ice with the heel to the instep of the skating leg so that the feet are close together. It actually takes more turnout to do a FI or FO Mohawk with the feet heel to instep than with heel to heel. If the freeleg takes the ice with the hips in closed position, then the Mohawk is closed. The only Mohawks that I can think of that are really closed are the BI (Sr. moves) that rotates like a BI three turn, and the BO in which the heel of the freeleg is placed to the instep of the skating foot.

But some F mohawks are "closed" after you skate them, and some are "open". For example in dance, the FI mohawk in the Swing Dance and Fiesta Tango is an open mohawk (although you place the RBO next to the LBI on the very next beat). The FO mohawk in the 10-Fox and 14Step is considered an open mohawk. But... the FO mohawks in the Foxtrot and the Rocker Foxtrot and the Tango are all considered closed mohawks. The hips are closed after execution. Or that's how it was explained to me.

[icenut84]

For a forward inside mohawk -
You skate forward on, for example, an RFI edge. When you bring your left foot to the ice to turn the mohawk, you can do it in two ways.
If you put the heel of your left foot to the instep of your right foot, the right foot moves behind you, extended, after the turn. This is an open mohawk.
If you take the heel of the left foot past the back of the right foot before placing it down, so when you change feet your left instep is next to your right heel, the right foot moves forward, extended, after the turn. This is a closed mohawk.

[Mrs Redboots]

Rachel is quite right, with the caveat that in at least one dance, the Fiesta Tango, although it is an Open Mohawk, the free leg is not extended after the turn, but kept close in to the skating leg as it is raised.

You also have outside open and closed Mohawks - these are forward outside edge to backward outside edge, but again, the closed Mohawk is where the free instep is brought to the heel of the skating foot, as in the Foxtrot, the Rocker Foxtrot and the Tango, or an Open Mohawk, where the heel of the free skate is brought to the instep of the skating foot as in the 10-step, the 14-step and the 10-fox. And probably other dances as well.

[jasmine]

This is how my coach explained open and closed mohawks. It is NOTHING to do with open and closed hips! It refers simply to THE POSITION OF THE FREE FOOT WHEN STRIKING THE MOHAWK ITSELF. For an open mohawk the free foot comes in in front of the skating foot (usually heel to instep). For a closed mohawk the free foot comes in to the back of the skating foot (usually ball to back side of heel).

Open mohawks: Lady's LFO mohawk in 14 step, Lady's RFI mohawk in Fiesta Tango, also continuous RFI LFI RFI mohawks in Starlight Waltz

Closed mohawks: Lady's LFO mohawk in Foxtrot, also LFO mohawk in Starlight Waltz

The mohawk in the International Tango is a RFO closed swing mohawk. The left leg swings past the right foot, then back, then mohawk with ball to back of heel, then LBO with right foot to front.

Depending on the dance, you do various things before and after with the free leg, which may or may not be written down anywhere, but your coach should be able to tell you. On the continuous RFI LFI RFI open mohawks in the Starlight Waltz, and in Fiesta Tango, the free foot comes in quickly and the feet are held together before the next push. In Swing Dance and Willow Waltz RFI open mohawk, the left leg is extended before the mohak and the right leg afterwards.

[dbny]

Don't know how I forgot about the closed F Mohawks in which the instep of the free leg takes the ice past the heel of the skating foot, except that it is more a dance move than freestyle, and I haven't yet done dance on ice. Of course, Rachel & Annabel are right about those. BUT, they are right because the HIPS are in closed position for those turns.

I attended an ISI coaching seminar in September and this question was raised and answered definitively that it is the HIP position that determines whether or not the turn is open or closed. The freeleg position is sometimes forced by the nature of the turn and sometimes not, but it is never the determining factor in the definition of the turn.

[skaternum]

One of my pet peeves is not making use of readily available information to answer questions. Rather than having everybody guess and offer opinions on mohawks, why don't we just go to the source? The USFSA rulebook gives the following definitions:

Open Mohawk: A mohawk in which the heel of the free foot is placed on the ice at the inner side of the skating foot. The angle between the feet is a matter of personal preference. Following the weight transference, the immediate position of the new free foot is behind the heel of the skating foot. <examples given>

Closed Mohawk: A mohawk in which the free foot is placed on the ice behind the heel of the skating foot, with the free foot instep to the skating foot heel. The angle between the feet is a matter of personal perference. Following the weight transference, the position of the new free foot is in front of the skating foot. <examples given>

Seems pretty clear. Repeat after me: "The rulebook is my friend. The rulebook is my friend."

[dbny]

Originally posted by skaternum
The USFSA rulebook gives the following definitions:

Open Mohawk: A mohawk in which the heel of the free foot is placed on the ice at the inner side of the skating foot. The angle between the feet is a matter of personal preference. Following the weight transference, the immediate position of the new free foot is behind the heel of the skating foot. <examples given>

Closed Mohawk: A mohawk in which the free foot is placed on the ice behind the heel of the skating foot, with the free foot instep to the skating foot heel. The angle between the feet is a matter of personal perference. Following the weight transference, the position of the new free foot is in front of the skating foot.

The point made at the ISI seminar was that this is only true because the hips are then in Open or Closed position. This definition also leaves out the heel to heel Mohawk, which is, of course, open.

[jasmine]

Originally posted by dbny
The point made at the ISI seminar was that this is only true because the hips are then in Open or Closed position. ...

Errrrr, sorry, I'm still not convinced. (Who WAS this venerable ISI bod?)

Your hips need to be open whatever kind of mohawk you are doing.
They need to be even more open with 14 step inside LFO mohawk than with Fiesta Tango inside RFI mohawk, to get the correct edges.

If you have closed hips you will ONLY be able to do a LFI or RFI open mohawk (not any other closed or open mohawk) and it will be on a choppy change, without a good continuous edge. You will also have serious problems trying to check the mohawk, as it will over-rotate, because for example on RFI open mohawk, your closed hips (with right hip too far round at the mohawk) will have a tendency to swing you round too far anti-clockwise.

Perhaps this venerable ISI bod was a free-skater, and never had to learn the dreaded 14-step LFO open mohawk ....

[dbny]

Originally posted by jasmine
Your hips need to be open whatever kind of mohawk you are doing.

Absolutely not true. See the thread on the BI closed Mohawk. I just looked at the diagram for the Sr. Spiral move that has this turn, and it actually called a Quick BI Closed Mohawk. Probably because if you don't do it quickly, you'll take a good splat. Since you essentially go toe to toe for this turn, your hips are as closed as they can get.

Who WAS this venerable ISI bod?)
Don't remember who ran the ISI seminar, but I still have my notes and can look it up. LMK if you really want to know and I'll post or PM.

[jasmine]

Originally posted by dbny
Absolutely not true. See the thread on the BI closed Mohawk. I just looked at the diagram for the Sr. Spiral move that has this turn, and it actually called a Quick BI Closed Mohawk. Probably because if you don't do it quickly, you'll take a good splat. Since you essentially go toe to toe for this turn, your hips are as closed as they can get. ...


I'd like to see ANYBODY successfully attempting any kind of open or closed LFO or RFO mohawk with closed hips, and getting the correct outside edges afterwards. If you close your hips on the mohawk, you will be set on to an inside edge.

Possibly a martian with double jointed ankles might be successful.

The golden rule in ice dance and figures is to keep the hip over the skate.

As I have never seen anybody do a BI closed mohawk (it is a very unusual and advanced move) I cannot comment on it. I still can't get a picture of that move in my head, how on earth can you do a toe to toe mohawk turn with closed hips?

For those who still don't understand closed/open hips here is a (bad-taste) joke - open hips are if you like the guy, and closed hips are if you don't ....

If you open the hips (or hip-angle) you will naturally get increased turnout of the knees and feet; they should normally maintain the same relative direction as the hip angle. The leg may be straight or the knee may be bent. As Melanie said, you can open one hip angle, to turnout one leg without the other, and you might do this for the lifted leg in a spiral, or the extended leg in a jump landing. For mohawks, normally both hips are open, but the skating leg will be bent, and the free leg normally straight before the mohawk. At the time of the mohawk, both knees should be semi-bent, but this last depends a bit on your coach's method.

[sk8ndancr]

The hip position referred to in naming open or closed mohawk refers to the hip position immediately AFTER the weight transference, before the next stroke. By putting heel to instep, your hip will be open after you step. By putting instep to heel, your hip will be in closed position after you change weight. (Fiesta mohawk is open immediately after LBI, but closes up quickly to stroke onto RBO.)

[jasmine]

Originally posted by sk8ndancr
The hip position referred to in naming open or closed mohawk refers to the hip position immediately AFTER the weight transference, before the next stroke. By putting heel to instep, your hip will be open after you step. By putting instep to heel, your hip will be in closed position after you change weight. (Fiesta mohawk is open immediately after LBI, but closes up quickly to stroke onto RBO.)

Errrr .... not true. After most of the open mohawks I can think of the hips are open, or slightly open. However, after the Foxtrot LFO closed mohawk the right hip is closed but the left hip is open. I think this is just a case of the English language having a limited descriptive vocabulary, and seventh generation skaters backtracking and inventing connections that never existed.

By your explanation, does this naturally mean that (for example) I need to do an OPEN chassee with OPEN hips, and a CLOSED chassee with CLOSED hips??

(... ie. just because whoever originally named these skating moves had a severely limited vocabulary) :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by jasmine
By your explanation, does this naturally mean that (for example) I need to do an OPEN chassee with OPEN hips, and a CLOSED chassee with CLOSED hips??

(... ie. just because whoever originally named these skating moves had a severely limited vocabulary) :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Hmm - "closed chassé" is an American usage which has crossed the Atlantic now. But when I first started to learn them, my then coach had never heard of the term, and always called them "cross-behinds".

[jenlyon60]

I always called them Cross-behinds, until I started working with my current coach, who's from the UK.

--jsl

[sk8ndancr]

Jasmine, I am referring only to the mohawks when I say open or closed.
I looked it up in Jeff Lerner's "Complete Manual of Compulsory Ice Dances" and quote the following:

Pg. 4: CLOSED MOHAWK: a mohawk in which the free foot is placed on the ice behind the heel of the skating foot, free foot instep to the skating foot heel. The angle between the feet is a matter of personal preference. Following the weight transference, the position of the new free foot is in front of the new skating foot. This closed free hip position gives this mohawk its name.

Pg. 5: OPEN MOHAWK: a mohawk in which the heel of the free foot is placed on the ice at the inner side of the skating foot. The angle between the feet is a matter of personal preference. Following the weight transference, the immediate position of the new free foot is behind the heel of the skating foot. The final open free hip position gives this mohawk its name.

SWING MOHAWK: a mohawk, either open or closed in which the free foot moves forward closely past the skating foot before being brought back to the skating foot for the turn.

Hope this helps. As for the Rocker Foxtrot mohawk, that is definitely a closed mohawk; free hip is closed after the turn. I was stuck on that dance for two years before i passed it, because of that stupid mohawk!

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by sk8ndancr
As for the Rocker Foxtrot mohawk, that is definitely a closed mohawk; free hip is closed after the turn. I was stuck on that dance for two years before i passed it, because of that stupid mohawk! It is the same Mohawk as that in the regular Foxtrot, but it isn't checked. One coach I know says that makes it easier; another says it makes it harder.... I don't dare do that dance yet, but I loved it when I learnt the steps!

[sk8ndancr]

I thought I liked it when I first learned the steps, too, and was very surprised at how hard it was when doing it with a partner to speed. It is a sneaky sneaky hard dance!! It is much harder to do than it looks! I was especially surprised because I mastered the rocker so much sooner than the mohawk. When I got to that mohawk with a partner I kept chickening out!

[Mrs Redboots]

I know - it's one of those dances that is easy to do badly! The rocker is easy enough as you are turning into your partner, and he can grab you, but with the Mohawk, he is trying to turn himself, too. One reason why I don't do it yet - we do the Swing Dance to the Rocker music here, so usually that is what I do when a Rocker is being played. That just has a 2-beat inside Open Mohawk (to keep us on the thread!), which I do find difficult to control.....

[love2sk8]

This is why I dont do dance;)...I dont like how everything has to be done one specific way!!

[Mrs Redboots]

Which, for those of us who do dance, is the whole point!

Actually and seriously, though, one thing that dance does teach you is to skate with your music. All too many skaters - I'm speaking even of the highest level ones - skate through their music, not with it. You could play the tape of them skating with the sound off and another track playing on your radio or CD player, and it would look the same! The best skaters, in my opinion. are those whose programme would look very odd if they skated it to any other music.

[backspin]

I also just like to point out that, to a dancer at least, there is no such thing as a heel to heel mohawk, except to see it marked on your test sheet as the reason you failed your dance test. A heel to heel mohawk is an incorrectly executed mohawk.

I also go by the USFSA rulebook definition re. open vs. closed mohawks. Although really, it doesn't really matter what you call them, as long as you can do them correctly when called upon. ;)