technique question: use what edge for forward upright spins?

[mikawendy]

This came up in the lessons/practices thread, but I'm starting a new thread so that it doesn't get buried.

I'm having trouble w/forward upright spins--for CW (my favorite side), I've been flipping over onto a BO edge because I do unintentional 3 turn about 1/2 rev (but instructor wants me spinning more on FO edge). I enter the spin from two feet, not back crossover to a choctaw. This also happens on CCW spins for me. (I'm working on both sides b/c I think the only reason I'm stronger at CW is that my CCW spinning foot boot [left] is loose in the heel and my foot wanders around on the ege).

batikat, thanks for your reply in the practice thread:
You've got me confused here - you seem to be talking about forward spins but then complain about being on inside edge on the ccw spin but surely the correct edge IS an inside edge. and for the CW spin (learning to spin both directions is impressive!) the correct entry for a forward upright spin would be exactly whst you describe - a forward outside edge followed by a quick 3 turn to spin on an inside edge.

So a forward upright spin IS on a BI edge??? I'm all confused!!! I always thought
forward spin = FO edge and
backspin = BO edge??
(In ballet-think, I think of a forward spin as an en-dehors turn and backspin as an en-dedans turn--quarkiki, do you know is that right?)

[kayskate]

Advanced forward camel spins are done on a FO edge. however, even in elite competiton, you will see many skaters doing basic BI edge forward camels. Similar w/ back camels. Switching to a FI edge is an advanced technique and rarely seen. I think Hughes and Cohen do FI back camels. They are absolutely beautiful.

In general, forward spins are done on a BI edge and back spins on a BO. These are the spins most adult/recreational skaters will learn.

Kay

[quarkiki2]

Although I can't help you with the spins, your ballet terms are a-ok, LOL!

I haven't gotten to spins officially yet, but I've had other adult skaters show me the two-foot spin. I can only get about 3-4 revolutions going either direction and seem to have no preference at this point. In ballet, my best pirouette was en-dedans on my left foot -- or a CW backspin. I always found in ballet I turned better to the right. Not that I turned badly to the left, but it was just more comfortable to turn to the right. I'm actually glad that I feel ok turning in either direction and hope that will translate to the ice when I start doing more footwork combinations.
We'll see...

And I'm refusing to pick a direction in which to spin at this point. I'm not doing anything advanced enough that muscle memory is key. And If I find that I enjoy spinning, I may spin both directions for fun!

[batikat]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikawendy
[B]This came up in the lessons/practices thread, but I'm starting a new thread so that it doesn't get buried.

I'm having trouble w/forward upright spins--for CW (my favorite side), I've been flipping over onto a BO edge because I do unintentional 3 turn about 1/2 rev (but instructor wants me spinning more on FO edge). I enter the spin from two feet, not back crossover to a choctaw. This also happens on CCW spins for me. (I'm working on both sides b/c I think the only reason I'm stronger at CW is that my CCW spinning foot boot [left] is loose in the heel and my foot wanders around on the ege).
[B/]
QUOTE]
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Hi Mikawendy
I am wondering if your coach is not actually asking you to spin on the FO edge but rather to hold the FO edge as long as possible before doing the 3 turn into the spin as per description below.

I will describe a CCW spin as that is what I do. I have checked this with the book so is accurate as I can make it!

If you are starting from a standstill you can either simply push off into the spin (but even then you will actually spin on the BI edge), or you can push off onto a LFO edge on strongly bent knee , keeping the right side of the body and right leg back. As you hold the strong edge the circle you make will be decreasing in size and you will slow down to a near standstill. At this point the right leg is brought forward on a large arc making you turn a quick 3 turn to spin on a LBI edge. The aim is to spin on top of the 3 turn and not skate out of it. Ideally the tracing would show the 3 turn mark obliterated by lovely circles on top of it and each other. (I have managed this properly only once ever!). Initially you spin with the right leg to the side of the body and arms out to side at about waist height - try and hold this for a full revolution and then pull in the leg and arms.

Once you have mastered this you can learn the correct entry with the 'wind up' from back crossovers/crosscuts in a clockwise direction. The last crosscut is held by standing on a strong RBI edge, right side of body held back, left side of the body forward, left leg stretched out of the circle. Hold this position for a full circle - this is the 'wind up'.
To enter the spin you bring the left leg from its stretched position and step to forward (in to the circle you have just skated)keeping your arms in the wind up position. You are stepping onto a strong LFO edge, knees bent, left side of body forward - this will take you into the decreasing circle to the near standstill when you bring the right leg through to turn the quick 3 turn to spin on the LBI as above.

For CW spins simply reverse R and L in the above.

A backspin can be entered from a FI edge, to a 3turn to spin on the BO edge. This is much more difficult!!!!

It has taken me 3 years to get a decent spin with a fairly consistent 4 revs but I am still having trouble centering the spin properly and getting more revs.

Good luck

Just wanted to add, that as soon as you have worked out the proper entry to the spin, your coach ,if he/she is anything like mine, will put it in a program and have you do some weird and wonderful move into the spin - anything but back crosscuts I find. I've done them from a pivot move and now, directly from a mohawk. and as for exits...........

[ahmskate]

Mikawendy, from your description I believe that you may actually be doing your spins correctly. Left forward outside 3 turn into back INSIDE edge CCW spinning circles. Just lift up your right leg after the 3 turn and you have a spin.

Alternatively, you may have accidentally discovered a backspin (which makes you VERY special). Right forward inside 3 turn into back OUTSIDE edge CCW spinning circles. This time you lift your left leg.

Watch a good skater spinning and then examine their tracings.

[batikat]

For a really good explanation of spins and their correct edges including drawings of the tracings produced on the ice by good (and bad ) spins try this link

http://www.skatejournal.com/spin.html

[mikawendy]

Originally posted by batikat
Hi Mikawendy
I am wondering if your coach is not actually asking you to spin on the FO edge but rather to hold the FO edge as long as possible before doing the 3 turn into the spin as per description below.
...As you hold the strong edge the circle you make will be decreasing in size and you will slow down to a near standstill. At this point the right leg is brought forward on a large arc making you turn a quick 3 turn to spin on a LBI edge. The aim is to spin on top of the 3 turn and not skate out of it.


Thanks for the detailed advice, batikat (and Kay and others)! I think my coach was asking me to stay on the outside edge during the entrance and then to not be so far to an inside edge (I was scraping which tells me I was on too deep an inside edge with too much weight up past the rocker). I think I've worked it out better now (and I was definitely doing a forward spin, not a back spin...I wish....). My tracings aren't really very even though, they're sort of oval... I'm going to check out that link you posted, batikat.

Thanks again!

[skateflo]

I'd like to add my own description. Sometimes it is just the wording or words used that set a lightbulb off....this is how I learned to do a one-foot forward spin:

Start on a line and push off onto a left forward outside edge as if you are going to do a 3-turn, free leg is held back, hips are squared, right arm forward. As you come around and are approaching the line, feel the forward edge change over to an inside edge, keep weight over the skating leg, then swing the free leg from the hip in an arc around and to the front, feel like you are pulling the left skating hip backward (this is where you start rotating on a left back inside edge and the swing of the free leg starts the momentum) and then bend free leg so that knee is facing forward and foot is next to skating leg.

The key to keep from 'traveling' is waiting until you feel the change over of the edge to the inside. Rushing it will pull your weight off your skating leg. Keep the free side up, again to keep the weight over your skating leg. Keep your head up, shoulders down not hunched up (most common position when you're scared.

Good luck!

[kayskate]

Here are some pics of my actual spin tracings.
www.skatejournal.com/oct01.html#spin2
There is also a link in this entry to another set of tracing photos. In some of them, you can see how a FO3 leads into the spin on a BI edge. I spin CW, so keep that in mind. There are also a couple of pics of backspins.

Kay

[mikawendy]

Originally posted by kayskate
Here are some pics of my actual spin tracings.
www.skatejournal.com/oct01.html#spin2
There is also a link in this entry to another set of tracing photos. In some of them, you can see how a FO3 leads into the spin on a BI edge. I spin CW, so keep that in mind. There are also a couple of pics of backspins.

Kay

Thanks for the link to the tracings, Kay! I'm also a CW skater and I just noticed yesterday (because I don't really watch for this when I'm watching TV) that Todd Eldredge is also a CW skater...

Were you always good at spinning or was it tough in the beginning?

[kayskate]

Originally posted by mikawendy
Were you always good at spinning or was it tough in the beginning?

There was definitely a learning curve. However, I cannot say that I ever became frustrated w/ spinning. Some spins were harder than others, namely the camel and backspin. I guess I was a more natural spinner than jumper.

Keep w/ it, a good spin looks just as wonderful as a double!

Kay

[MissIndigo]

Since we are on the topic of spinning, I have noticed that not all skaters (in particular beginning adult skaters) manage spins on the sweet spot. It's more like they rise on the toepick somewhat and trace tiny, tiny circles over and over, which obviously doesn't leave the "dinner plate" (or more likely the salad plate) tracing. I don't get it...how can these spins be maintained, or is it that once the habit is learned, it is hard to break? Also of note is that those spins are never very fast.

[kayskate]

Originally posted by MissIndigo
they rise on the toepick somewhat and trace tiny, tiny circles over and over, Also of note is that those spins are never very fast.

I think these spins are caused by locking the knee. The knee should be kept softly flexed through the spin. A locked knee forces the skater to the toe.

Kay