Novice Moves

[spiderman]

i was thinking does anyone hate nov. moves as much as me?

spidy:roll:

[CanAmSk8ter]

Yes. Have you taken them yet?

[KathySkates]

Yes. I am working on those dreaded back inside 3's to forward inside 3s... It is on the adult gold moves test as well as the Novice. I think that the USFSA is nothing less than a bunch of sadists for forcing us to do that move!
I predict that they will downgrade that to something more appropriate for adults within 2 years time. In the meantime, we suffer...

[sk8er1964]

I call those back inside to forward inside 3's from Novice "the nasties". It was rotten of the USFSA to put them on the Adult Gold test :evil: . I'm working on the Intermediate now (which leads to another question - if I passed the Adult Gold, which is mostly Intermediate moves, why do I have to take the Intermediate next 8O ?)

[KJD]

Because you're an adult skater and they just still aren't sure what to do with us are they? :roll:

[sk8er1964]

KJD -

:) You got that right!

[flo]

Send your thoughts to the new Adult chair. These changes are taking the "adults" out of adult skating.

[tazsk8s]

Originally posted by KJD
Because you're an adult skater and they just still aren't sure what to do with us are they? :roll:

You know it!

Taz, still slightly frustrated but NOT working on ANY stinkin' moves right now!

[KathySkates]

Originally posted by flo
Send your thoughts to the new Adult chair. These changes are taking the "adults" out of adult skating.

I couldn't agree more flo! If you look at the "powers that be" in the USFSA adult committee, they are mainly people that skated as children or "returnees". Great people but I think that more representation is needed from "real adult" skaters as I call those of us that started taking lessons as adults. I would also like to see older and lower level skaters represented as well. The majority of adult skaters that I run into are at the pre-bronze and no-test level!
We've come a long way but shouldn't stop now!

On a side note, even though I think that moves are great, I am opposed to them being required to take freestyle tests. IMHO, they should be encouraged BUT OPTIONAL!
I also am very sad that figures are gone. One of the coaches that I work with refused to teach moves because he is so angry that they got rid of figures. This is an elite coach that has trained several Olympic skaters! He knows what he is talking about! We are seeing the tail end of skaters that had any basic figures training. The next wave will not even know what a scribe or a layout is!
Whew, I will step down off my soapbox now! LOL!. Sorry!

[skaternum]

Originally posted by KathySkates
If you look at the "powers that be" in the USFSA adult committee, they are mainly people that skated as children or "returnees". Great people but I think that more representation is needed from "real adult" skaters as I call those of us that started taking lessons as adults.

I agree completely!! For a while there, every time Skating Magazine talked about "adult skaters," turned out they meant an RC (Returning Child) skater. I think there's room for both groups, but methinks the true Adult skaters (with our little stick straight legs and eyes that gaze downwards!) are about to get squeezed out. Example: at GC last year, a presenter was talking about sources for potential new judges and talked about Adult Skaters. Hooray, I thought, until the presenter went on to talk about all the years of experience they have and that they can start this judging at something like 18 yo. Clearly not talking about "Adult" skaters.

I understand completely that it's easier for USFSA to tap into an existing population than fostering a new one for funds and labor, but come on! The real Adult Skaters make up half the board in my club and do proportionally way more than their share of work for the club. We have the interest and the money; I hope USFSA isn't going to forget about us.

And don't get me started on those @#$%&*! mandatory Adult MITF. :x

[CanAmSk8ter]

Originally posted by KathySkates
The next wave will not even know what a scribe or a layout is!

It's already started. My best friend is 17 and has been skating since 1995 or so and didn't know what a scribe was. (I, OTOH, have been skating since 1993 and still *own* one! Now that makes me feel like a veteran- along with the fact I'm one of the only skaters I know who has actually taken and passed a figure test!)

[KJD]

Here's my view on the MIF. I'm probably in the minority but I think its fine to have them to take freestyle tests - provided they are layed out right. I do not, repeat do not understand why for basically a Juvenile level freeskate test (Adult Gold) we are doing Intermediate and Novice moves. And the same would apply to Silver (I think) in that its closer to a pre-juv freeskate and the moves are Juv and Intermediate. This seems so designed to keep adult skaters out. I'm fine with taking moves. But I've passed Juv moves and about to take Intermediate - I should be able to take the Juvenile level equivalent freeskate. When I'm ready to do novice moves, I'll take them! Whew! End of rant.

Kate (who is still going to work on those stupid Gold moves and by God pass them in the next 3 months if it takes me 3 retries to get it)

[sk8er1964]

I agree that it's good to have to do them as an adult, and I also agree that the structure is out of whack.

I'm a child/returning skater, and I had some difficulty with the Novice move (I never did any standard track moves - it was figures for me as a kid). I wouldn't want to be a start-as-an-adult skater doing them, especially one who passed Silver free before the rule change and therefore has little or no MIF experience. They require such control and knee bends....8O

Kate - Good luck going to work on those stupid Gold moves - with your determination, you'll pass them in the next 3 months:!:

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by KJD
I do not, repeat do not understand why for basically a Juvenile level freeskate test (Adult Gold) we are doing Intermediate and Novice moves. And the same would apply to Silver (I think) in that its closer to a pre-juv freeskate and the moves are Juv and Intermediate. This seems so designed to keep adult skaters out.

I don't think it's designed to keep adult skaters out, since the judges are expecting that an Adult Gold level skater will not do the Inside 3-Turns as well as a Novice level skater, and hence the passing average is lower on the Adult Gold test.

But I guess my opinion doesn't hold weight, since I'm a returning child skater. The grass is not always greener being a returning child skater, let me explain: because since I'm past the levels of all the Adult tests and am doing standard track Novice Free and Junior MIF right now, judges are comparing me to how the 12 year olds perfrom the same tests! So judges want to see the same flexibility, soft knees and long lines that the kids have! Tough to do for a 30-something. But in the end, it pushes me to be a better skater if I can acheive that.

But I will say regarding the Novice MIF...It took me 6 tries in three years to pass it! But I persevered and passed it. Most of my comments were always that my speed and edges were correct, but that I looked "awkward" performing the moves. It's a tough test.

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by manleywoman
I don't think it's designed to keep adult skaters out, since the judges are expecting that an Adult Gold level skater will not do the Inside 3-Turns as well as a Novice level skater, and hence the passing average is lower on the Adult Gold test.

When I tested the Adult Gold MIF (although we need to take into consideration that they had only existed as a requirement for less than 2 months and I was probably the first one the judges had ever seen), I had one judge that was definately holding me to the same standard as the kids. I say this because his scores and comments were so different from the two judges who passed me. I've heard the complaint on discussion boards that adults feel they are being held to that higher standard on the MIF. Of course, this could change in time as more judges see the adult MIF's being performed.

I know several adults who started as adults who are excellent Silver-level skaters. However, I think that the novice move on the Adult Gold will definately keep some of them from ever attempting the test, even though they can do the freestyle side. Although I highly doubt that the USFSA intended this to happen when they developed the adult MIF's, I think this will bottleneck the Silver level even more than I hear it already is unless that novice move is removed from the test.

I've talked to the Adult Chair (Maggie Harding) on a different rules matter, and she is very interested in hearing the opinions of adult skaters. My section chair (Gail Sombati) has also been very willing to listen. As Flo said, if you have concerns about the impact of the MIF's, contact them!

PS - Manlywoman - your opinion holds just as much weight as anyone else's. There's room for both us "child skaters" and the "start-as-an-adult skaters" in the adult skating world! And you're right - the grass is not always greener being a child skater. It was amazing the hoops I had to jump through to become eligible to compete at the next AN.

End of long post.....:lol:

[tazsk8s]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by manleywoman
I don't think it's designed to keep adult skaters out, since the[B] judges are expecting that an Adult Gold level skater will not do the Inside 3-Turns as well as a Novice level skater, and hence the passing average is lower on the Adult Gold test.

True, at least in theory. Based on what I've read on this board, and my own experience with miserably failing the Silver moves, though, this isn't happening in practice with the adult moves yet. I don't think the judges quite know what to do with those of us who started as adults, so they're expecting us to look a lot like the kids. The passing standard is just a number...the 2.7 that I need to pass the cross strokes on the Silver test is NOT the same as the 2.7 that would fail a skater taking the Juvenile Moves.

JMO.

[flo]

Hi,
Manley,
You and other returning skaters are a great source of 2cents. As I wrote in the 6.0 article, that will hopefully be out in the winter issue, I'm all for a place for returning skaters to compete, but with other returning skaters. The original goals of the adult movement were to provide a program for skaters learning to skate as adults. We just seem to be losing sight of this objective. It's not to put blame on the returning skaters, I've found that they are very supportive of the adults. Like you said they know how difficult the skating can be with an older body, let alone starting from the begining with one.
Testing is even more complicated. One friend of mine had tested high in figures as a kid, but didn't do freestyle. Because of the rules, she was originally told she had to compete at gold - and she had never done an axel as a kid!
For me, I'm learning the moves because I like edges, but I don't have any intention of testing them until the rules have played out for a while, or I partner with a gold pair man.

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by flo
[BI'm all for a place for returning skaters to compete, but with other returning skaters[/B]

I just managed to somehow delete my post before it was posted :evil:

I think that this is a difficult problem, but that it is somewhat addressed in the current rules. For example, I have to skate at the Gold level because of the ISIA tests I passed as a kid. I believe that this is 100% correct - it would be unfair to other skaters for me (who has done doubles) to be skating at bronze or silver level.

That being said, if you are somebody who started as an adult (say at age 25) and can land axels, then you are a Gold level skater and it shouldn't matter when you started. IMHO, the axel is the great divide, and once you have it there is an equalizing factor for this situation.

I still think the novice move on the Gold MIF will scare people off. KJD had it right about the juvenile levels.

[backspin]

Okay, I'm going to be very unpopular here.

While I disagree with some of the ways they've implemented the moves tests, I really don't object to the difficulty of the gold test.

I started as an adult (age 27), so I'm coming from that perspective. I also mainly do ice dance, & my coaches were all "footwork exercise" fiends, so even though I wasn't doing moves I was doing many similar things. I'm a bronze level freestyle skater (actually pre-bronze, having not tested bronze, although I can do all the elements), so I'm not way up there as far as freeskating goes.

I think it *is* possible for adults (who started skating as adults) to skate beautifully, with flowing edges, with confidence, and with enough perfection in our basic skating to make people enjoy watching us. I think the only thing (most of) adults won't achieve in skating is the huge jumps.

How much time do you devote to 3-turns? I know that freestyle skaters have other things to work on, but those of you lamenting the loss of figures probably also know the hours and hours and hours that were spent on them. Do you spend that kind of time on moves?

I remember, when starting out in dance, being given assignments like "by your next lesson, I want you to have done at least 500 3-turns: 250 on each foot". I have devoted whole practice sessions to nothing but 3-turns. You do that for a few weeks, & guess what? I bet you'll be able to do your 3-turns! :D

My own philosophy of adult skating is that we can be beautiful & look natural on the ice, and I would far rather see lovely skating and no jumps than stiff crossovers into a big lutz jump (which I see quite a lot of!)

I do think we can do the difficult moves, but it takes a LOT of work & dedication--just like the jumps & spins. Also, not everyone will be able to pass through their gold moves, just like not everyone will be able to pass their gold freeskate or their gold dances. They have to have something to separate the "men from the boys", as it were, and any adult with an axel should be perfectly capable of doing all their 3-turns, IMO. I'm not saying they're easy. I'm saying they're doable if we work at them with the dedication everyone seems willing to give to jumping & spinning.

*backspin runs for the door* :oops:

[sk8er1964]

Don't run, backspin, you make some very good points.

[flo]

Sure, with enough time nad effort I do think its possible for adults to "skate beautifully with flowing edges". For the realistic majority of adult skaters I think we have to acknowledge that there is a significant difference in those who started as adults and those who began as kids.
This is not "just" in the high jumps. It's in the skating. I'd like to see the USFSA finally get a clue as to what adult skating is, and is not, and make room for both adults and returning skaters.

[KJD]

Backspin,
I don't disagree with you either. I am one of what I would call an "in betweener". I didn't skate seriously as a kid but I was on skates. I did basic skills for 2 years and pond skating sometimes. But when I started skating as an adult (at 36) I looked like an adult skater.

I started in ice dance, so I have pretty good edges, flow and speed - I passed up to one pre-silver dance so while not brilliant, I wasn't dreadful in this department. I also did standard track moves and made it through juvenile.

When I took the adult gold test, there is no question that I was being judged at kids standard. My coach talked to one of the judges about it this week. They don't know how to judge it and passing average aside, it will be judged like a kids test. The NUMBER they put on the sheet is not the same as the standard to which you are held apparently - same standard, just different number because you are an adult.

I actually think that if I can control my nerves alittle better, then I will pass, because on the practice rink, I'm told they are quite good. But that's my issue to deal with. sigh. I just think that its out of whack to do Novice moves for a juvenile freeskate. Why can't we do juvenile moves? I just feel penalized for being an adult at this moment.

I really do believe the moves are a good thing, but they need to be better thought out. End of vent. Sorry.

[manleywoman]

The only consolation I can think of for all those adults frustrated with the new Moves is that since this is the first trial run of Adult Moves for both Adult skaters and USFSA, I'm hoping that it will be revistited and reviewed by the USFSA quickly and appropriate changes will be made to the Moves themselves so that no adult skaters feel they are being ostracized. I'm sure if the right committees hear enough complaints and constructive criticisms of the current Moves from both Adults and judges, then perhaps they'll alter the structure to make it more balanced and realistic for the skaters.

In the meantime, I looks like we'll all (new adult and returning adult skaters) have to make ourselves look like we're 12 years old when testing! :D

[jenlyon60]

I haven't seen any Gold MIF tests yet, but I saw an Adult Silver MIF test the other week and I've seen quite a few PreJuv, Juv and Intermediate MIF tests. I would say that the passing standards being used for the Adult Silver MIF test I saw were definitely lower than the standard MIF track tests.

Of course, that's only 1 test session. The previous test session we had a PreBronze MIF and 2 Bronze MIF. The PreBronze passed, the others didn't.

--jsl

[skaternum]

Originally posted by flo
For the realistic majority of adult skaters I think we have to acknowledge that there is a significant difference in those who started as adults and those who began as kids. This is not "just" in the high jumps. It's in the skating. I'd like to see the USFSA finally get a clue as to what adult skating is, and is not, and make room for both adults and returning skaters.

Flo, you've just succinctly summed it up for me. It really is in "the skating." I can watch a 25+ skater on the ice and know almost instantly whether they are a "returner" or an "adult learner" skater.

Yes, I too can have beautiful child-like edges and flow...if I give up my freestyle and concentrate on MITF, edges, and dance. But when I only have 4 hours of ice a week, I can't squeeze it all in. That's the reality of adult skating. I believe in the value of the adult MITF; I've been working on the standard track all along. But making these particular combinations of Moves manadatory for adults, to me, runs counter to what adult skating really is all about. Perhaps if we bought USFSA a vowel, they could solve the puzzle?

[tazsk8s]

Originally posted by skaternum
Yes, I too can have beautiful child-like edges and flow...if I give up my freestyle and concentrate on MITF, edges, and dance. But when I only have 4 hours of ice a week, I can't squeeze it all in. That's the reality of adult skating. [/B]

Thank you!!! You hit the nail right on the head for me, as well. So many of us skate as much as we can - I do reasonably well with 5-ish hours a week. If I'm really lucky, 6 hours. It all goes by awfully fast now since I started working on moves - 20 or 25 minutes of the 60 minute session are gone by the time I even get to freestyle anymore. Haven't run my program to music in months. I wish I could add more, but the reality is I'm already getting in as much time as work and personal constraints will allow. (And there are plenty of adults who can't even squeeze in my amount of ice time, so I'm not really trying to whine here.)