View Full Version : Coach's behaviour:cause for concern?
Hey all,
I'm a pro rep and I haven't run into this before, so here goes...
Complaint is from a parent with younger skater. They've been with coach for 1.5 years. The freeskate/base coach undermined the relationship with the dance coach in the summer by not allowing the lesson when he had the time. Parents apologized to dance coach and let the issue go.
In summer, Coach let skater work for just 2 lessons with another coach on spins-the base coach didn't have time for skater. Base coach then would no longer allows spin coach to work with skater even though she is requested by parent and kid. Reasoning is not quality of coaching-its that base coach is suspicious of spin coach-re "she's too friendly to me".
The particular spin coach is well known for her quality.
Skater makes it an issue in late fall this year. Big blow out, but she gets the spin coach for 2-15 lessons a week.
Dance coach tells skater parent that he can't take the skater on X session b/c "base coach said no, b/c they do not teach on that session".
they arrange different, inconvenient day to dance coach and parent to get the lesson in.
Last week: Skater parent begins to wonder why the spin coach no longer coming-no explanation. Runs into spin coach who explains that she was cut from her usual 30 minutes to 15 only, and it takes over 1/2 hour to get to the rink-would be happy to come, but an hour driving for 15 min?
Straw breaking camels back?: parent just found out base coach who picks up the skater and brings to rink during midafternoon on day ice for scheduled 45 minutes lessons one day each week while parents at work has been bringing fiance along...chit chat? And there are two other girls who receive lessons on same ice from same coach taking up in total 1.5 hours of time [the whole day ice time for that session].
I should mention that the parents seem frustrated now they say b/c the child has learned nothing new from the base coach since spring b/c the coach rushes the lessons b/c coach has a ton of kids.
Any thoughts from anyone out there on professional behaviour? I would have a problem with it personally, but-should this parent be concerned and should the club then watch the coach more closely? or is this a personality issue between skater and parent that we stay out of?
It seems that the Base coach is insisting on too much control over things. The coaches have to remember that they are being employed by the skater/parents. It sounds like the skater's needs are not being met, thus an unsuccesful relationship for all involved.
I was in a similar situation years ago and it was only resolved eventually by changing coaches. At first I was unhappy with the change as I believed my original coach was the only one in the rink who knew how to coach, but in retrospect it was the best thing.
The old coach was not interested in me as they did not believe I would be an elite figure skater(and they were right) thus my lessons were shortened and little attention was given to me during the lesson. They also did not support dance (which eventualy became my passion) The new coach began to rebuild my confidence in all aspect of my skating and made me love skating again.
The parent should re-evaluate the coach. How many elite skaters do they have and how well do their other skaters do in competitions. Perhaps they don't likethe child having lessons from coach B as the style and tecnique is different but it sounds more like they are not a good coach and lack the confidence in their own ability and are scared the child will change coaches. Most coaches are protective of their income.
A problem like this may be complex and can only be resoved by the parties directly involved. Unless you are a good mediater any suggestions of help may be interpreted as interference -good luck.
A bird is not yours unless you set it free and it returns to you.
peachstatesk8er
11-25-2002, 02:03 PM
Sounds like the coach doesn't have time for the skater, yet is reluctant to make time and also doesn't want to let skater take lessons from others in case the skater or parents decides the grass is greener elsewhere. The parents need to find a coach who A. can make enough time for skater without rushing, and B. is not threatened by skater taking lessons from others on specific things.
kayskate
11-25-2002, 02:04 PM
This situation just sounds insane. I don't know what a "pro rep" is, so I am not certain of your involvement in the situation. Are you in a position to make a change in this coach's relationship with the skater and family?
IMO, no coach should have such control over a skater. The parents are paying for the service, they should be able to get other opinions and expertise. If someone needs a second medical opinion, he goes to another doctor or seeks a specialist. I cannot understand how a skating coach feels s/he has the right to make decisions for a skater's family. It ultimately is not fair to the skater. I would think this type of behavior reflects badly on the coach as well as the rink where such a control freak teaches.
Kay
A pro rep is the one who, for the Club chairs hiring, letting go, interviewing, doing contracts for, and recommending to the Board, various coaches based on resume, experience, etc... and paying the coaches who are at their club. We had a big turnaround in the board this past year since so many skaters, and by extension parents, hung up their skates.
The complaint in this particular situation came to the attention of members on the board b/c the parent was seeking guidance and has indicated their intent to file a written formal complaint for a meeting scheduled within the week. Since I deal with the coaches, guess where the verbal complaint came first. Our club gives contracts for private lessons. Coaches without a contract from the Club cannot get on the ice. Complaints, in the past, have been taken seriously I understand and may result in a coach not getting a contract in a later year.
What I was looking for, was an idea of whether this is a situation where the skater-coach and parents just have personality conflicts, or whether this was an issue which should raise red flags. I mean, is this normal behaviour for coaches. The coach in question is not ours, so I do not know her that well. And I would hate to give an opinion on her behaviour without some idea of whether or not it could be considered appropriate. This is, after all, her livelihood. And I personally think its not a good situation, but I know some of you on here are parents, skaters, and/or are coaches, so it seemed like a logical place to present the problem.
I think I'm trying to head off trouble at the pass-before the board gets embroiled in a late night meeting [which are already going far too late]
Keep the comments coming, so I can digest them.
Mediation is not our thing, we don't interfere, but we are concerned about the written complaint enroute, and we want to have the skater's needs and interests taken to heart.
Thanks all
Well, it sounds to me like you have heard one side of an issue. At some point, I think that a discussion about the other side, from the coach's point of view would be appropriate.
Personally, I think that if a written complaint is coming, and you have received a verbal, that a discussion with the pro is in order. If the complaint isn't formal enough yet, then I would get the permission of the parent first.
Just my thoughts, but ...
Danielle
Hi,
This is not acceptable behavior for a coach - at any level, elite or not. Our best coaches encourage us to take lessons from other pros. There are even skating schools where the whole concept is to be team taught. It has worked out well as long as everything is done up front. When mine goes to worlds or off to Nationals, I always let him know that I will be taking a couple of lessons from coach xx in his absence. He's never had a problem with it, and always says, "that's great, and thank you for letting me know". The other coaches are also fine with it, and I always tell them that my primary coach knows.
Dani,
Yes a discussion with the pro is on the table...I am sensitive to the fact that both sides need hearing....and the parents are giving written permission to do so.... the Board is just gathering their thoughts
I have always found this board useful and dare I say relatively sane....grin, it helps to get perspective outside of the situation...
I just hate to have to talk to the pro if this is a parent/coach problem...But I'm beginning to see that it will probably warrant a chat since it probably isnt just personality....and guiding the parent to reassure them that this behaviour is ok will not be an answer to this situation
Cheers
I agree with Flo that it is unacceptable behaviour for any coach to be controlling.This will not be good for a pleasant atmosphere and contententment of the skaters at the rink as resentments will develop both between the skater concerned and the coach and the coach and other coaches.It is also bad for the long term development of the skater involved. However Dani is right and both sides need to be considered. Some parents can be vindictive if they believe their child has been wornged although this is probably wrong in this case.
garyc254
11-25-2002, 04:17 PM
Until all sides are heard individually and face-to-face, you'll never know the complete story or be able to work out a desirable solution.
I agree that the coach is behaving inappropriately if what has been said is totally factual. However, we all know that our words and actions can be misconstrued easily.
Maybe a few "friendly/unofficial" phone calls to th parties involved might be in order.
I know that one of my old coaches wasn't too happy about my having another coach. She, however, didn't and couldn't say much as I was the one paying the money. After a fashion, she started appreciating some of the things I was learning from the "other woman". :lol:
Had she persisted in her feelings, I would have quickly told her to find herself a new student.
Just judging from what you've said so far....
a) "base" coach is in no position to tell a parent who they may hire to coach their child for disciplines other than what base coach is teaching. If base coach is not doing dance, then it's not any of her business *who* teaches the child dance.
b) if "base" coach refers parents/skater to another coach for spin lessons, then I would think the parents have the right to continue that relationship if they so choose, as long as spins is all the coach is working on (thinking of situations where I know clubs have 'specialists' on their staffs).
Even though you're 'just' a *coaches' rep* you'll find yourself in mediation situations anyways -- especially between two coaches. I would definitely advise the club president of what you've been told -- before the meeting, so he/she has some background to worth with and isn't caught off guard, and I think I would let the club executive/board decide what to do from there. Best advice would be to have a meeting with the coaches who are involved, the parent, yourself and the club president or his/her designate.
Ultimately, the parent pays the bills and what she wants for her child (in the child's best interests) should be the prime consideration, NOT what individual coaches want.
Good luck...mediating power struggles among coaches is NOT fun -- been there, done that...
Originally posted by JD
In summer, Coach let skater work for just 2 lessons with another coach on spins-the base coach didn't have time for skater. Base coach then would no longer allows spin coach to work with skater even though she is requested by parent and kid. Reasoning is not quality of coaching-its that base coach is suspicious of spin coach-re "she's too friendly to me".
That last line makes my skin crawl. If this is true, then, IMO, the base coach has a real personality problem and could be headed for worse manifestations. I don't see why one coach should have anything at all to say about how much time another coach spends with a skater. That is entirely up to the skater, the parents, and the other coach. I would run the other way from this person and from the ice she occupies. I've already had one very nasty experience with a crazy coach and her enthralled followers.
I would never employ a coach who wasn't secure enough to allow me the choice of lessons with an additional coach. My daughter has been with the same coach for six years and twice has had additional lessons with other coaches. Her coach's take? "Another point of view can always be helpful."
arena_gal
11-26-2002, 02:53 AM
I thought for a moment that JD was talking about the situation happening at my own club. It is almost exactly the same, with the base coach having too many students, too busy to give proper lessons to all the skaters so the parents start calling the other coaching looking for supplemental lessons.
The etiquette in our club is that the base coach has to okay the supplemental coaches - so that they have "complimentary" styles. So what happens is when the other coach gets a call, she/he checks with this base coach and gets told "hands off".
Our club is losing skaters over this. Young skaters that we can't afford to lose. I know that the etiquette is so that coaches get proper notice (and get paid), but the parent is unable to hire any other coach and either has to leave the base coach which has been ugly, or leaves the club completely.
Our parents feel that they cannot hire coaches as they want. The club is being asked to intervene, parents ask what sort of contract the club has with the coach. (nothing that would apply to this). It might be easier if the coach quit taking on new skaters, but the club has never told coaches how many skaters they can have, or even how long lessons should last or how many at all.
I'd like to know the origin of this etiquette thing, where the base coach calls the shots. It's okay if the coaches have a team mentality, but in our case, the coaches think of their lesson dollars.
giggle...arena-_gal, I certainly hope its not your rink....but I feel very badly for you....
Thanks everyone, and yes, the club pres knows and we are trying to deal with this. There are always two sides to every story.... thanks for all the opinions, they are great...and helpful...
Lee, egad....been there, done that?????oh, no...and here I thought I could avoid it (big grin)...I hope it gets easier as time goes on...
We sure aren't looking forward to it...pres booked meeting scheduled now with pro just to deal with this...so guess I'll be squirming in my seat Thursday...
Just so you all know, some of the "board" has been reading comments incognito....so feel free to keep them coming...apparently this is a first for the club....
Cheers alll
LWalsh
11-26-2002, 08:24 AM
ok here's my .02
This person is getting the concept of team teaching. It is normal in many rinks/clubs for a skater to have a primary coach. Then the skater will take lessons from other coaches in the rink (usually recommended by the primary coach)e.g. spins, moves, harness, dance. It is professional courtesy (I believe outlined by the PSA) for the primary coach to be informed and for the the second coach to check with the first coach to make sure that it is ok. Any caoch worth their salt will have you take lessons from other coaches and encourage it.
Now...having said that, it is a free country and technically you can take lessons from whomever you feel like.
It sounds like this person isn't acting professionaly and the parents would probably be better off to change coaches. In reality a formal complaint wouldn't accomplish the goal anyway. The first coach will just get annoyed and they'll end up switching anyway.
LWalsh
11-26-2002, 08:26 AM
Ackkk!!! I meant to say "This person is NOT getting the concept of team teaching"
Not enough coffee today - still asleep I guess
Lara
jasmine
11-26-2002, 08:52 AM
The thing I really don't understand about this situation is the use of the ice time. I do not understand why the base coach can control when other people work. The rinks that I know may have a timetable which schedules in ice time for free and dance at different levels, but as long as the coaches are teaching the appropriate discipline/level, they can teach on any training ice they choose. So I can't understand why the spin coach's time was cut to 15 minutes.
It seems to me you need to explore the area of ice time allocation first.
Does your club decide on coaches for pupils, or can they pick their own? After all this aggravation and dishonesty, do the parents still want their child taught by the base coach?
Also, I am not really familiar with the idea of team teaching as a group. What happens at rinks I know is that a pupil may have several different coaches, but by mutual agreement and respect, there is no crossover in discipline. For example, a pupil may successfully learn from different coaches for dance, free, moves, program etc. even though their "free" styles are not compatible. If your coaches are operating a "team teach" philosophy, it seems to me the base coach is not acting ethically, but is abusing his/her position. If these coaches are operating their "team teach" independently outside the club, then it is time the club made up some team teach rules and applied them. Perhaps you need to call a meeting of the coaches who "team teach" and find out how it operates first.
Mrs Redboots
11-26-2002, 10:18 AM
Unfortunately this sort of situation is all too common - one coach elects him- or herself King/Queen of the Ice, and all the other coaches are expected to bow to their demands. Often if the first coach has been there forever and the others are relative newcomers. Sadly, coaches are human, and prone to indulge in human temperament.....I'm sure every rink has at least one coach who throws all his or her toys out of the pram with monotonous regularity!
Just to answer a question, no the base coach doesn't get to control ice allocation...but the pro in question does not let the other coaches teach the skater unless they themselves are on the ice. male dance coaches are hard to find let alone fit everyone in. lets just say the parent accomodated his schedule even though everyone was inconvenienced-but the base coach.
as to the spin coach, there wasn't a teaching time issue-the base simply told the spin coach they were only allowed 15 minutes. the spin coach didn't want to step on toes.
ginamarie
11-26-2002, 12:56 PM
I have gone through this situation twice with two different local coaches. :(
Both times, it all started when two friends of mine who used to coach started giving me tips on the ice to help make my elements more consistant. My recent coach didn't like it one bit and told me things like "They're teaching you the wrong thing, don't listen to them"...but when I ask other skaters who know them and have been skating for many, many years learning from professional coaches, whatever tips I was getting from my friends were right.
At the moment, I haven't found a coach I could completely trust at my rink cos all our coaches came from the same group.
Am I making sense?:?:
jasmine
11-26-2002, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by JD
... What I was looking for, was an idea of whether this is a situation where the skater-coach and parents just have personality conflicts, or whether this was an issue which should raise red flags. I mean, is this normal behaviour for coaches....
Personally, I do not think that this is normal or acceptable behaviour for coaches. IMHO this coach appears to be acting in an arrogant, selfish, exploitative way. But you need to gather more evidence of this from other parents and skaters before you decide what to do. You cannot dismiss a coach on the say-so of one set of parents. But if the parents make a formal complaint, then you will need to interview the coach (with a secretary to take minutes of the meeting) and ask their response.
Personally, I don't understand why the parents don't just drop the base coach.
I think that a coach needs to take her students into account. There is a big difference between me, a 36 year old bronze level skater (that feels good! ;-) taking a pick-up lesson with someone else of even taking from two different coaches (which I do) and a 7 year old skater.
Let me give an example, my dance coach gave me freestyle lessons over the summer. He had me come up, set, and then go down for a sit-spin. My freestyle coach disagreed with that and has me go down immediately. As an adult, I am able to deal with the conflicting information and make a choice. I can also listen to other suggestions and ask my coach.
However, for this to work, I really need a coach that makes the decision. I may negotiate the final decision because I am a partner. So, I have a freestyle coach and a dance coach and they are the final word for their disciplines. I think that works really well. I also think that could be overwhelming for a kid to try to deal with.
Of course, if that is the issue, then the coach should have explained it to the parents.
Good luck!!
Danielle
Originally posted by jasmine
Personally, I don't understand why the parents don't just drop the base coach.
I agree completely! I don't see how a disagreement with my coach could possibly be made better by escalating the problem. If I can't deal with her myself, then I must find a different coach.
Danielle
skaternum
11-26-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by JD
I just hate to have to talk to the pro if this is a parent/coach problem...But I'm beginning to see that it will probably warrant a chat since it probably isnt just personality....and guiding the parent to reassure them that this behaviour is ok will not be an answer to this situation
I guess I'm still confused as to the extent of your responsibility as a "pro rep." We don't have any such position here. If your job is what I think it is, this sounds very much within the scope of your responsibility. Can you explain a little more what your "pro rep" responsibilities are? I'm curious.
skaternum... I hope this helps:
yes, its in the scope of responsibility, as I'm discovering....I'm basically the person on the Board responsible for all and any liason with coaches on behalf of the Board for the Club. Some places call it the "coaches rep", etc...as I mentioned in an earlier post, including soliciting resumes, negotiating contracts, writing contracts, doing the interviewing [usually with the president] and recommending coaches to the Board each year as well as working with the president to handle complaints, and doing the coaches payroll and recommending the setting of salary to the Board...etc Basically, anything you can think of involving coaches comes to me first.
Where the freelance positions come in [ie, not group] I still have to solicit resumes and interview coaches. Usually if there have been no problems with previous coaches during the year, they are rehired if they issue an intent to apply at the end of the skating season without redoing the whole formal thing -ie interviews again. Freelancers can't just apply to work with X skater in the club, they are hired with the understanding that although we cannot restrict their working time, we will not allow them to restrict to one skater only.
Each skating season contracts end and then coaches reapply for the positions. It is done every year...
I don't know what I was hoping for in this matter...except maybe that I defuse a potential situation in its beginnings...
As Lee pointed out to me, there isn't a "nice" way around this...
Dani: leaving the coach was suggested. the parents indicated that they would be happy to leave-except that the coach has made it so difficult through interaction with other coaches that it would be like the new coach was stepping on toes. I'm suspecting thats why the complaint process started- the parents felt like they needed to be heard.
And I have to say, after talking to the Session co-ordinator [the coach hired to oversee all sessions] that her perception is that the parents have always been very gracious and easygoing. There have been complaints to the session co-ordinator about this particular coach. It was never mentioned because she said it goes into the year end report.
So, guess I'll see what happens tomorrow night...thanks for everyone's thoughts...feel free to add...
skaternum
11-27-2002, 06:46 PM
Thanks for the info, JD. 'Round here, coaches work for or are contractors of the rinks, not the clubs. It's interesting to see how it works elsewhere. I wouldn't have your position for ANYTHING in the world!
Good luck with this situation.
skaternum
arena_gal
11-28-2002, 09:22 AM
I read the entire thread through again. In some ways, it is a personality issue, and I'm not sure how far your club should become involved. However, the club can be supportive and provide facilitation for the coaches to work things out between themselves. I know, it's a parent/coach issue, but part of it is the coaches working together also.
I think that there should be a meeting with the coach, the dance coach, the spin coach, the whatever coach, the coach's rep (JD) and the club president. I can hear the complaining now from everyone that it is inconvenient, however, probably the best way to get the dance coach and the spin coach to say that they would like to be able to work with the skater without base coach having to be around, is in a supported environment. Get the base coach to explain what her version of team teaching is. She doesn't have to be on the ice watching (I wonder if she bills the parents for this), but instead they could have coaches meetings to discuss the progress of skater X, along with the skater and her parents.
We did this last year when two of our coaches were having a spat with each other, we held a coaches meeting with 5 or 6 of them and the spat emerged as an issue but was dealt with as a group, slightly less confrontational although chairs were overturned.
The bit about the coach having her fiance along during drives and coaching sessions with young students is a matter that should be handled with the coach, privately. It is improper and could put the club at risk, esp. with a male/female relationship.
thanks arena gal....yes, my concern was about personality....there are some people in life who just aren't meant to get along
...the bit about the fiance along was actually where my personal concern was ... but I thought maybe I was being prudish...I know I would have a problem with that if our coaches were doing this... I never thought about an issue with the club....[but the president did]
As to the rest, thanks for your perspective...it seems like a nice way to close...and since we're doing one meeting tonight, I'm sure that we will be having a meeting with the rest of the people you mentioned shortly.
And for everyone, thanks for your assistance....
Thrilla
12-01-2002, 09:07 AM
This is extremely common in all the rinks I have been to, and in the ones used by other skaters I know.
The primary coach in your situation is protecting his income, and using manipulative measures to control his students and their parents.
It is common(unfortunately)that the primary coach seeks to control every aspect of the skaters on ice time, and uses fear tactics if and when the skater/team seek advice from other coaches.
It is not in the best interest of the skaters, nor is it professional.
But the coaches get territorial and act as if they have been wronged if and when a skater attempts to use another pro for technique and/or choreography.
The PSA really does very little to discourage it because the PSA was formed by coaches, for coaches, and does not
represent skaters' interests.
The massive ego trip your coach has been allowed to nurture at your rink by skaters and families who dont want to "rock the boat" will make any new changes difficult.
Why does everyone fear approaching this coach? Has he produced alot of champions? Or is he just a big fish in a small pond?
My advice... tell the skater to dump him and his controlling ways, and have the club remind him that he is a hired professional, whose job is to serve the skaters in a fair and professional way.
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